Jump to content

Welcome to TheMalibuCrew!

As a guest, you are welcome to poke around and view the majority of the content that we have to offer, but in order to post, search, contact members, and get full use out of the website you will need to Register for an Account. It's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the TheMalibuCrew Family today!

Sign in to follow this  
Twitch02x

2 Wetsounds XS-XXX-V2 in 2008 VLX

Recommended Posts

Twitch02x

Have 2 SYN1 amps coming back from WS fresh from being repaired and I want to do 2 12s. Been doing alot of reading and it seems as if the port side helm is generally frowned upon so that is steering me away from doing 1 under driver helm and 1 under port helm.

what about doing 1 big box under the drivers helm that has part of the box taking up the walkway space and having a cushion made to look factory? Would obviously have to cut the bottom part of that panel out.

Is there enough room to get the cubic space needed for 2 12s?

Share this post


Link to post
MLA
1 hour ago, Twitch02x said:

the port side helm is generally frowned upon

For a single woofer setup, the closed insulated port locker is not my first choice. For a 2nd woofer, its worth a look if you cannot get the pair under the helm. 

1 hour ago, Twitch02x said:

what about doing 1 big box under the drivers helm that has part of the box taking up the walkway space and having a cushion made to look factory? Would obviously have to cut the bottom part of that panel out.

Why not 2 separate enclosures? One under the helm and the 2nd in the walkway. No need to cut the walkway wall out, weakening the helm possibly. 

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x

I'm not opposed to doing 2 separate enclosures, and I'm not 100% opposed to putting the other 12 in the port locker.

It just seems from what I've been reading, a sub in the port locker doesn't sound good, especially from the earmark guy, but I'd think you could vent it some how tho but I'm not sure.

 

thats why I'm here looking for tips!!

Share this post


Link to post
MLA
17 hours ago, Twitch02x said:

from what I've been reading, a sub in the port locker doesn't sound good,

If its the boat's only woofer and its in the closed insulated locker, I agree. If there is one woofer radiating directly into the main cabin and then a 2nd in the port locker, im not as worried. It does well to shake the boat and the bass heard comes from the other woofer. Is it the most ideal? no, but its 10X better than the only woofer in the boat, being closed in the locker. And its certainly better then cramming 2 under the helm is a WAY too small, poorly designed enclosure. 

So if you are already entertaining filling the walkway with an enclosure/seat cushion, I would do 2 enclosures. One under the helm and the 2nd in the walkway. They would be very close to being on the same plane and you would not have to cut out the helm walkway wall. If that doesnt work out, I would then look into putting that 2nd woofer in the port locker. Yes, venting that locker is a plus. 

Share this post


Link to post
tjklein
14 minutes ago, MLA said:

If its the boat's only woofer and its in the closed insulated locker, I agree. If there is one woofer radiating directly into the main cabin and then a 2nd in the port locker, im not as worried. It does well to shake the boat and the bass heard comes from the other woofer. Is it the most ideal? no, but its 10X better than the only woofer in the boat, being closed in the locker. And its certainly better then cramming 2 under the helm is a WAY too small, poorly designed enclosure. 

So if you are already entertaining filling the walkway with an enclosure/seat cushion, I would do 2 enclosures. One under the helm and the 2nd in the walkway. They would be very close to being on the same plane and you would not have to cut out the helm walkway wall. If that doesnt work out, I would then look into putting that 2nd woofer in the port locker. Yes, venting that locker is a plus. 

 

This is great info from MLA.

If you're looking for a good example of a walkway setup you can sort of see it from HydroTunes here...

http://hydrotunes.net/marineaudio/portfolio_categories/malibu/

 

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x

My only concern was there not being enough space for a proper size enclosure in the walkway alone.

 

i will get some measurements this evening 

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x

So the dimensions of my walkway are

13 1/2" wide

30" deep

9" high from carpet to bottom of seat cushion

 

the height is gonna be the killer, maybe I should look into an enclosure in the port locker that is well vented to get as much sound out as possible.

Share this post


Link to post
David

A second subwoofer and a second amplifier (2 X power) in the port locker will add output regardless, although the output from the concealed port side sub will not be as great as the direct-radiating starboard side sub. So the secondary location will certainly add but just not as efficiently as the first and best location. The greater downside of the port side is sound quality, first from the negative impact of a sub within an enclosed compartment, and second from how the outputs from the two sides combine. Ideally you want the two subwoofer outputs emanating from close to the same depth of plane. Since wavelengths produced by subwoofers are extraordinarily long, you have a little latitude in this regard. However, the enclosed port locker has a far greater impact on the phasing than does a small distance differential. In contrast, two subs, one under the starboard helm and one in the walkway, are both oriented in the same direction, are phased aligned, are close together, are both direct-radiating, and will function as a single & larger subwoofer. Whether bass-reflex or sealed, both subwoofers need to be loaded via the same method.       

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x

I'm starting to lean in the direction of what ive heard here many times,"upgrade what you have and keep it as a single sub setup" I like the idea of 1 speaker so i may go this route.....

1 Z-15 V.4 D1 REV.2 - Sundown Audio 15" 2000 Watt RMS Dual 1-Ohm Z4 Series Subwoofer. My amps can be strapped so i could run both of them on this sub wired in series to create 2ohm load(1ohm per amp).

Here is a video of a v3 in action( credit due to crf-rider from the crew)  Looks like it flat jams.

http://youtu.be/oPJtITAG7-4

 

Share this post


Link to post
MLA

What would be cool, is a Revo Triple-X 15"! An all marine built 15" woofer in the 1500W rms/3000W peak range. 

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x
11 minutes ago, MLA said:

What would be cool, is a Revo Triple-X 15"! An all marine built 15" woofer in the 1500W rms/3000W peak range. 

oh you mean thats made by Wet Sounds!!

Yes that would be cool

Share this post


Link to post
David

Sundown Audio is just one brand of many, many brands that fit into a particular class that use/share many common China parts. You'll notice that multiple subwoofer sizes within any given series will often use the identical motor structure. This class of subwoofer is more of a narrow bandwidth resonator rather than a broad and linear reproducer. More for handling high power and serious abuse at the direct cost of accuracy. But if you want a single subwoofer that flexes the hull and ripples water, the Sundown Audio subs will no doubt fit the bill....and there's certainly nothing wrong with those objectives. Music types and listening habits vary and impact one's intolerance as well as one's objectives.  

The main and more important issue is that it makes no sense to use a paper cone subwoofer in a boat, especially since there is zero sonic advantage to a paper cone with a known degradation over time.     

Share this post


Link to post
tjklein
3 hours ago, David said:

A second subwoofer and a second amplifier (2 X power) in the port locker will add output regardless, although the output from the concealed port side sub will not be as great as the direct-radiating starboard side sub. So the secondary location will certainly add but just not as efficiently as the first and best location. The greater downside of the port side is sound quality, first from the negative impact of a sub within an enclosed compartment, and second from how the outputs from the two sides combine. Ideally you want the two subwoofer outputs emanating from close to the same depth of plane. Since wavelengths produced by subwoofers are extraordinarily long, you have a little latitude in this regard. However, the enclosed port locker has a far greater impact on the phasing than does a small distance differential. In contrast, two subs, one under the starboard helm and one in the walkway, are both oriented in the same direction, are phased aligned, are close together, are both direct-radiating, and will function as a single & larger subwoofer. Whether bass-reflex or sealed, both subwoofers need to be loaded via the same method.       

Always really appreciate your in depth answers.  Sometimes it's too much for some, but I like how thorough you are in answering questions!

Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x
28 minutes ago, David said:

Sundown Audio is just one brand of many, many brands that fit into a particular class that use/share many common China parts. You'll notice that multiple subwoofer sizes within any given series will often use the identical motor structure. This class of subwoofer is more of a narrow bandwidth resonator rather than a broad and linear reproducer. More for handling high power and serious abuse at the direct cost of accuracy. But if you want a single subwoofer that flexes the hull and ripples water, the Sundown Audio subs will no doubt fit the bill....and there's certainly nothing wrong with those objectives. Music types and listening habits vary and impact one's intolerance as well as one's objectives.  

The main and more important issue is that it makes no sense to use a paper cone subwoofer in a boat, especially since there is zero sonic advantage to a paper cone with a known degradation over time.     

Great response!!!!!!

just as tjklein just said, really appreciate your answers as you are clear as day with your explanations!!!

 

With that being said, would you care to give some insight on a brand or possibly model in particular that is better suited for my needs?

Amp power will be 2 Wetsounds SYN 1 (1000wtts rms at 1 ohm) strapped at no less than 2 ohms (1 ohm per amp), Ported Enclosure under driver helm, although i want to be top contender among my group of friends in terms of boat shaking and water splashing i also am concerned with sound quality!! we listen to everything from hip hop, rock, country, rap, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
David

02x,

This will be important for you to research. I'm not entirely sure about this because that amplifier has been disco for a number of years. But if memory serves me correctly, the Syn1 delivers more power into a 2-ohm load and then less power into a 1-ohm load. Push/pull strapping the amplifiers into a common VC would be like bridging so you would effectively cut that woofer impedance in half to determine the amplifier load when bridged. So for max power and max stability, the target would be a DVC subwoofer at 2-ohms per each coil with a discrete amplifier per each voice coil. Then tuning for an absolute equal output voltage on both amplifier chassis is very important.

Subwoofer....a single well-optimized 12-inch is better than a single poorly-optimized 15-inch. And a ported sub enclosure will produce more output than sealed. Enough so that a ported 12" could have a very slight output advantage over a sealed 15". So in your quest the most important factor in sequence is sub enclosure before sub driver. Before beginning your subwoofer search, determine the exact maximum available internal gross enclosure that will fit your specific boat. That is likely to be a complex enclosure design and a bit of an exercise. But this is how you will get the absolute best results.

You can approach your system with a bit of an SPL bias over SQ. It's frequently done to get the most output that tends to carry. There are a number of SPL techniques you can follow once you have made your sub driver & enclosure decision.          

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x
3 minutes ago, David said:

02x,

This will be important for you to research. I'm not entirely sure about this because that amplifier has been disco for a number of years. But if memory serves me correctly, the Syn1 delivers more power into a 2-ohm load and then less power into a 1-ohm load. Push/pull strapping the amplifiers into a common VC would be like bridging so you would effectively cut that woofer impedance in half to determine the amplifier load when bridged. So for max power and max stability, the target would be a DVC subwoofer at 2-ohms per each coil with a discrete amplifier per each voice coil. Then tuning for an absolute equal output voltage on both amplifier chassis is very important.

Subwoofer....a single well-optimized 12-inch is better than a single poorly-optimized 15-inch. And a ported sub enclosure will produce more output than sealed. Enough so that a ported 12" could have a very slight output advantage over a sealed 15". So in your quest the most important factor in sequence is sub enclosure before sub driver. Before beginning your subwoofer search, determine the exact maximum available internal gross enclosure that will fit your specific boat. That is likely to be a complex enclosure design and a bit of an exercise. But this is how you will get the absolute best results.

You can approach your system with a bit of an SPL bias over SQ. It's frequently done to get the most output that tends to carry. There are a number of SPL techniques you can follow once you have made your sub driver & enclosure decision.          

The SYN 1 delivers as the following

4 ohm = 1 x 850 watts

2 ohm = 1 x 1000 watts

1 ohm = 1 x 1000 watts

 

Share this post


Link to post
David

,02x,

So I didn't get it correct. It is actually the Arc Audio KS1000.1 replacement, the KS1200.1, that drops from 1200 watts @ 2-ohms to 1000 watts @ 1-ohm. However, there was something to it. In order for the power output to remain the same at a lower/half impedance, the power supply rail voltage is reduced. That tells you something about the thermal limitations. As a Class GH voltage switching amplifier, I'm also concerned as to if the higher efficiency is impacted at the lower load without a corresponding power gain. So as long as the 1 & 2-ohm power remains equal, I feel a bit more comfortable at 2-ohms.

  

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x
16 minutes ago, David said:

,02x,

So I didn't get it correct. It is actually the Arc Audio KS1000.1 replacement, the KS1200.1, that drops from 1200 watts @ 2-ohms to 1000 watts @ 1-ohm. However, there was something to it. In order for the power output to remain the same at a lower/half impedance, the power supply rail voltage is reduced. That tells you something about the thermal limitations. As a Class GH voltage switching amplifier, I'm also concerned as to if the higher efficiency is impacted at the lower load without a corresponding power gain. So as long as the 1 & 2-ohm power remains equal, I feel a bit more comfortable at 2-ohms.

  

And won't it be less of a power draw at 2 ohms??

Share this post


Link to post
David
1 hour ago, Twitch02x said:

And won't it be less of a power draw at 2 ohms??

I'm not certain because I can't say how the amplifier behaves under all circumstances, and Class GH amplifiers are a little more complex on the supply side. If the output wattage is the same at both loads, I would prefer operation at a higher rail voltage with lower current draw in that higher voltage generally means higher efficiency. So I feel that 2-ohms is to error on the safe side given that the power output is equal.     

Share this post


Link to post
cowwboy
16 hours ago, David said:

,02x,

So I didn't get it correct. It is actually the Arc Audio KS1000.1 replacement, the KS1200.1, that drops from 1200 watts @ 2-ohms to 1000 watts @ 1-ohm. However, there was something to it. In order for the power output to remain the same at a lower/half impedance, the power supply rail voltage is reduced. That tells you something about the thermal limitations. As a Class GH voltage switching amplifier, I'm also concerned as to if the higher efficiency is impacted at the lower load without a corresponding power gain. So as long as the 1 & 2-ohm power remains equal, I feel a bit more comfortable at 2-ohms.

  

But at the end of the day, with box rise and impedance curve. How often do you actually see the system impedance be as low as the stated impedance. 
I know in my system it's stated to be 1 ohm and measures that with a fluke meter on DC. Yet my actual impedance is 1.6 - 8 ohm across the 20 HZ- 140HZ range. 
All results were using a calibrated fluke Hydra data logger. 

Twitch, 
I run a Digital Designs 12 with one of their amps running 1200W. I know it is not a reference type driver as David has pointed out. But the SPL brands produce great results. I have gotten lots of compliments on how much output I have for just one 12. 
I also run DD because they are built in OKC. 

But to David's point of being a china mail order. With DD at least, the cones are made here in OKC and the motor top and bottom plates are machined here in OKC. I am not sure on the voice coils and I know the baskets are not made stateside. But who makes cast baskets and magnets state side? 

Just don't use a paper cone and don't be afraid to experiment with your box. 

We built mine 3 or 4 time messing with where the port should be and side firing vs direct radiating to get the best results. 
There is some experimenting as to what your hull can do to help or hurt your output. We found that running the port along the side of the hull helped the output and sound quality vs running it along the floor or in the center. 
That side firing flexed the hull and was a little louder it was kind of boomier and didn't quite have the most clean output. 

Again my sub doesn't have the most accurate output that some of the SQ cars my buddies shop has turned out, but we are in an open environment on the lake. The only time my sub is pushed to the limit is when we are tied up and to be honest you don't want to be in the boat when it is being pushed that hard. So the minute sound quality loss is worth the output for the application we use it.  

Share this post


Link to post
David

cowwboy,

You cannot measure AC impedance in the DC mode.

It only takes a narrow impedance dip to cause serious thermal issues. With a sealed driver/enclosure, the impedance is normally and substantially elevated at the system resonance. “System” resonance would denote the loaded woofer in a box which is very different than the unloaded curve. With a bass-reflex enclosure, the impedance is often at its lowest at the tuning frequency. At this point the impedance can dip well below the nominal impedance, and down to what is normally the woofer’s unloaded DCR. So this can be a real issue that is compounded by other design elements. I'm going to stick by my original recommendation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x

oh hell lol

yall are losing me now

Share this post


Link to post
Fffrank

Since this thread has gone off the rails anyway, I noticed that I rarely see a recommendation from our resident audio experts on subs and/or how to power them.  It's pretty clear on the in-boats, towers and the amps to power them but what does @MLA and @David recommend as the top handful of subs / mono-amps.  

And yes, I understand that box design/selection is critical when it comes to these.  

Share this post


Link to post
Twitch02x
23 hours ago, MLA said:

What would be cool, is a Revo Triple-X 15"! An all marine built 15" woofer in the 1500W rms/3000W peak range. 

 

13 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

Since this thread has gone off the rails anyway, I noticed that I rarely see a recommendation from our resident audio experts on subs and/or how to power them.  It's pretty clear on the in-boats, towers and the amps to power them but what does @MLA and @David recommend as the top handful of subs / mono-amps.  

And yes, I understand that box design/selection is critical when it comes to these.  

MLA made his recommendation above

Share this post


Link to post
David
15 minutes ago, Fffrank said:

Since this thread has gone off the rails anyway, I noticed that I rarely see a recommendation from our resident audio experts on subs and/or how to power them.  It's pretty clear on the in-boats, towers and the amps to power them but what does @MLA and @David recommend as the top handful of subs / mono-amps.  

And yes, I understand that box design/selection is critical when it comes to these.  

In a subwoofer larger than a 10-inch and excluding infinite baffle, Wetsounds builds true 100% marinized products when few other companies can make that claim. If the Wetsounds XXX 15" is in our near future, that's exciting news, but I don't have information on any timetable. So I have to place Wetsounds very high on the list.

I'm also a major fan of JL Audio. Why? Everything from the W3 on up is built in the U.S. JL Audio has by far the best team of design engineers and the most advanced tools for the job. Every W6 subwoofer uses 100% proprietary parts and every individual speaker within that series is designed from the ground up, meaning that parts are not shared from size to size within each series. Once you get beyond the entry level subs, JL Audio is a precision design beyond all others. And when designing a system, the results are very predictable.

My opinions are heavily skewed by SQ, my particular listening habits, and the type of music that I listen to. So my personal objectives are not shared by everyone. When you get up to speed & on plane, especially with significant hull noise, critical listening SQ is no longer relevant. At that point, you should be able to tolerate any number of products. Some Hertz models and Audio Frog subwoofers have also got my attention.  

     

     

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...