Is This The Future?

[MadMan]

8 hours ago, BadgerBoater55 said:

 Go after the people who a) are on too big a lake for a wakeboat or b) don't want to make the jump into a "towboat" to get them hooked on surfing and then have them look to a towboat.  

Or maybe Malibu and others will start building boats using this outdrive.

 

[TenTwentyOne]

The biggest downside to that drive, is the draft. Trimming up that style of drive does absolutely nothing for having a shallower draft. In fact, the first bit of trim actually increases the draft. The local marina sold one of them on this lake, and won't sell any more. We have a long channel that is a steady 3-4' deep down to the fuel pump and marina. The forward drive can't make it down that channel, or access several areas of the lake that are only 3ish feet deep. Those drives require a minimum of 1' more draft than the average inboard.

[BadgerBoater55]

40 minutes ago, MadMan said:

Or maybe Malibu and others will start building boats using this outdrive.

 

I would find that highly unlikely.  Malibu is a name associated with towboat...  Let alone the R&D of developing a new boat, plus the fact they have committed to building their own engines, it just doesn't make sense.  I like the licensing play, grab cash in a market you don't participate in, get the brand association with "surf gate" (it does say patented by malibuboats on the gate) and then cash in on people wanting the real deal.  I am assuming they were mindful and helped Chappy make sure this boat will represent surf gate as a quality tool.

[MadMan]

1 hour ago, BadgerBoater55 said:

I would find that highly unlikely.  Malibu is a name associated with towboat...  Let alone the R&D of developing a new boat, plus the fact they have committed to building their own engines, it just doesn't make sense.  I like the licensing play, grab cash in a market you don't participate in, get the brand association with "surf gate" (it does say patented by malibuboats on the gate) and then cash in on people wanting the real deal.  I am assuming they were mindful and helped Chappy make sure this boat will represent surf gate as a quality tool.

Is being an inboard a requirement for being a towboat?

Is a boat designed for surfing a towboat?

 

[MadMan]

1 hour ago, TenTwentyOne said:

The biggest downside to that drive, is the draft. Trimming up that style of drive does absolutely nothing for having a shallower draft. In fact, the first bit of trim actually increases the draft. The local marina sold one of them on this lake, and won't sell any more. We have a long channel that is a steady 3-4' deep down to the fuel pump and marina. The forward drive can't make it down that channel, or access several areas of the lake that are only 3ish feet deep. Those drives require a minimum of 1' more draft than the average inboard.

Yep, these seam more susceptible to damage than your typical I/O.  If a typical I/O were to strike something, it could get pushed up or just simply ride up over it, whereas this new one, if it were to get pushed back, it would cause the front to come down and snag even more.

[ejj]

While costs might be similar, I don't think these bigger I/Os are really competing with a 25 foot towboat. The people buying a big regal or chaparral are interested in a party boat that can hang on big lakes--they want a bathroom, a grill, a big bow to beat chop on the way to the cove.  They are just adding some surf capabilities to these rigs.  They aren't the best towboats, but they are better at partying. 

[BadgerBoater55]

36 minutes ago, MadMan said:

Is being an inboard a requirement for being a towboat?

Is a boat designed for surfing a towboat?

 

No to both.  My apologies for the vague nature of my comment.  Let me clarify.

Malibu/Nautique/Mastercraft/Centurion... Designed to be very good at ski/wake/surf in some combination. IT IS DESIGNED TO TOW.

Chappy/SeaRay/etc... Designed to be a cruiser with comfort.  Sports are an afterthought in the design process.  Will it surf? Sure.  Could you also ski behind a fishing boat? Sure.  Is it as good as something designed to tow people? Very unlikely.  Not a designed specifically for towing... Not a towboat.

Does the engine matter? No.  I am just saying it is highly unlikely Malibu will make the switch given the current commitment they have to build their own engines (R&D isn't cheap!).  Why do what Chappy is already doing, when you are already making money off Chappy with something you already make?  This isn't Malibu's fight, let the existing players in that market do their thing.

[jk13]

15 hours ago, MadMan said:

Why is this?

As others have stated, they reside in hulls specifically designed for stability and smooth wakes at watersports speeds rather than cruising speeds, they turn a single, larger, lower pitched prop that causes less aeration of the wake keeping it firmer, they are non-trimmable, which takes a huge variable out of the skipper's hands that will largely affect the tow speed and handling, among other factors that you are more than welcome to use your Google machine and find for yourself.

If you've ever driven an I/O you know the bow rises much more than an inboard, then around 20mph it levels back out as it comes up on plane. This makes holding consistent speed below planing difficult because that hull was never designed to perform great at those speeds. Wakeboarding speeds are especially difficult as you're constantly fighting the tipping point to keep it off-plane for a larger wake.

I'm not against I/Os, just stating that both have their place and even with these advancements inboards will still be the choice for those that make towed sports their first priority. For someone like @Levi900RR on a huge lake that cruises long distance, it can certainly make sense to go I/O if he can make the wakes suit his style for when he's behind the boat.

Edited January 24, 2017 by jk13

[kerpluxal]

Just now, jk13 said:

As others have stated, they reside in hulls specifically designed for stability and smooth wakes at watersports speeds rather than cruising speeds, they turn a single, larger, lower pitched prop that causes less aeration of the wake keeping it firmer, they are non-trimmable, which takes a huge variable out of the skipper's hands that will largely affect the tow speed and handling, among other factors that you are more than welcome to use your Google machine and find for yourself.

If you've ever driven an I/O you know the bow rises much more than an inboard, then around 20mph it levels back out as it comes up on plane. This makes holding consistent speed below planing difficult because that hull was never designed to perform great at those speeds. Wakeboarding speeds are especially difficult as you're constantly fighting the tipping point to keep it off-plane for a larger wake.

I'm not against I/Os, just stating that both have their place and even with these advancements inboards will still be the choice for those that make towed sports their first priority. For someone like @Levi900RR on a huge lake that cruises long distance, it can certainly make sense to go I/O if he can make the wakes suit his style for when he's behind the boat.

Was almost finish typing this.. on point.. The hull for a tow boat are way different in many aspects to hull designed for a cruiser.

[CharlieBeaU]

18 hours ago, malibudog said:

"One of the first ones sold here has already been back in the shop with the lower unit torn off.  Trailering is very difficult (requires special trailer and a lot of caution).  Inside storage in the marina's here is unworkable because the prop sits so far forward.  All in all, not sure why you would go for this boat instead of a similarly priced or lower priced Axis, unless you were on a huge lake and needed the rough water performance."

I agree. I looked at a number of these at the Portland Boat Show. It seems like every I/O boat has one now. It just seems to me that having that much of the drive unit hanging that low would cause problems. With all the shifting sandbars, deadhead logs and other fun stuff we see in the Columbia and Willamette rivers in the NW I'd think you be running that drive unit into stuff all the time.

[DarkSide]

5 hours ago, TenTwentyOne said:

The biggest downside to that drive, is the draft. Trimming up that style of drive does absolutely nothing for having a shallower draft. In fact, the first bit of trim actually increases the draft. The local marina sold one of them on this lake, and won't sell any more. We have a long channel that is a steady 3-4' deep down to the fuel pump and marina. The forward drive can't make it down that channel, or access several areas of the lake that are only 3ish feet deep. Those drives require a minimum of 1' more draft than the average inboard.

The drafts are increasing on tow boats as well to get better surf waves.  The M235 and 24MXZ are now both 32" draft, the Ri2x7 are all 3'.  So not just i/o.

The other problem with i/o surfing is the "rudder" is the drive.  Have you ever tried to help a rider by turning slightly towards wave to help rescue them?  It works briefly with inboard, with I/O you send prop wash into the wave!

[minnmarker]

Chaparral web site has the 246 SSi (effective length of 22') draft at 29 to 34 inches depending on I/O trim position.  About the same for the 227 SSX.  Not so different from the big inboards.

I know there will be trade-offs between the I/O and inboards but, for those that can use it, a rough water capable (and probably fast) surf boat is a good option.  Competition will bring good things.

Note: All the Chaparral surf boats I saw at the show had water in the bilges and ballast compartments.  They had been on the water in the recent past.

Edited January 24, 2017 by minnmarker
addition

[isellacuras]

Its gonna get real interesting when/if a cruiser with wakeboat technology makes a better wave than the originators.  Id love to see if the wake snobs would jump ship to a non wakeboat.

[DarkSide]

6 hours ago, isellacuras said:

Its gonna get real interesting when/if a cruiser with wakeboat technology makes a better wave than the originators.  Id love to see if the wake snobs would jump ship to a non wakeboat.

In a heartbeat!  I just want an amazing wave AND reliability.  I don't care what the name on the side says.  

[MadMan]

15 hours ago, isellacuras said:

Its gonna get real interesting when/if a cruiser with wakeboat technology makes a better wave than the originators.  Id love to see if the wake snobs would jump ship to a non wakeboat.

And "better wave" is subjective.

[carguy79ta]

I don't think a 23 or 24ft normal weight boat (say 5000 or so)is going to produce a better wave.  now if they put surfgate on a 35ft chappy that weighs north of 12000 lbs plus ballast that would be interesting to see.  the surfgate would have to be 2'×2' or so with massive actuators.

[saxton15]

There will likely be that guy asking to put surf gates on his 45 Chaparral, just cuzzz

[Nitrousbird]

On 1/24/2017 at 6:47 AM, bamaboy said:

The bubble is soooooo gonna pop.  

 sense it coming

I will be there, cash in hand.

[Fffrank]

I don't think this will be a popular post.  

First: I'm an inboard snob.  I grew up skiing behind a Century Resorter and bought my first inboard at 18 years old.  I've surfed behind all of the major brands and some of the minor ones.  I've surfed good wakes and bad wakes and everything in between.  I started surfing in (I think) 2004.  I'm not an expert/advanced surfer but I'm certainly competent and experienced.  And a snob.

When my friend told me he was ordering a Cobalt, I groaned.  He's had several of them and (obviously) some brand and dealer loyalty.  He saw a "surf" cobalt and couldn't resist.  I was confident it was going to be awful.  His boat is still being built but the dealer offered him a loaner until his comes in.  So.... This weekend I surfed the new Cobalt R5 WSS Surf Edition.  Same forward-drive as the Chappie.  No surf gates but it does have some REALLY big tabs:

 

We hit Lake Minnetonka on Sunday to 30+ mph whitecaps over big water.  I don't think I would have even bothered in the 23LSV.  I certainly wouldn't have tried to surf.  The cobalt did fine.  No surprise there.  When I saw 60mph on the speedo, I was surprised.

We waited until evening and the wind (and traffic) died down and it was time to surf.  I didn't even bring my board (that's how excited I was for the wave.)  We filled up the ballast, hit the "SURF LEFT" tab, hit the preset on the Zero-Off and hit it.  I was surprised.

That's the best pure-stock wave I've ever seen.  No piggy-backs, no plug and play, no pumps or hoses or electrical connections -- stock!  

I grabbed the HyperLite demo that was in the racks and got right up.  Impressive push but the board was garbage and wouldn't track straight.  I crashed, flipped the board over and discovered that nobody had installed the fins!!  And nobody knew where they were.  Discouraged, I climbed back into the boat.  My friend insisted I try on the only other wakesurf board that they had: A Hyperlite Ripper.  

A 45" kids board.  (I'm 6'2", 230lbs.)  I told him it was impossible but that I'd at least play around on the rope and see how the wave seemed.   Imagine my surprise when I dropped right into the pocket with slack in the rope.  I impressed everyone (especially myself) with how well I rode it.  And how much push the wave had.  And how long the pocket was.  

Now, I've only ridden a 23LSV w/ surf gate once.  It was a dealership demo and I don't think they had it setup properly.  I've not surfed any of the new big-dogs (G, Ri257, M235, etc).  But I would compare this boat with the best 23LSV waves I've been behind.  In a boat with much more room, better layout, a head, 60mph capability, and (from what I can tell) a similar price point.

I'm convinced.  I'm a converted inboard snob.  If I was in the market for a new boat  -- I'd be demoing the Chappie and the Cobalt HARD. 

I'll post more photos and videos when I get some.  Nobody else in the boat cared what the wave looked like -- they just cared at the cooler was full and that the stereo was on (and it was very decent in those areas, too.)

Oh -- and the boat my friend is waiting to be delivered?  It's the R7.  The bigger version.  Should be even better.

[hethj7]

Not sure if it the rough water or what, but that wave looks rough.  Tough to judge what the actual size and shape is from these photos, but awesome to actually get a review of one of these from the real world.    

[Yeaitsslo]

Can't wait for this bubble to pop.  Gonna be handing these things out like candy.  

[bamaboy]

I'm confused by the "stock" statement.  What is he saying?  It doesn't run any ballast?  Just those tabs that drop down?  

 

And no offense to Cobalt but they are styled so old manish.  They are nice but I think you get an AARP discount when you buy one...jussayin

[Fffrank]

1 hour ago, bamaboy said:

I'm confused by the "stock" statement.  What is he saying?  It doesn't run any ballast?  Just those tabs that drop down?  

 

And no offense to Cobalt but they are styled so old manish.  They are nice but I think you get an AARP discount when you buy one...jussayin

2100lbs stock in 3 tanks.  Not sure where or how they fill but it seemed fast to me.

[TallRedRider]

1 hour ago, bamaboy said:

I'm confused by the "stock" statement.  What is he saying?  It doesn't run any ballast?  Just those tabs that drop down?  

 

And no offense to Cobalt but they are styled so old manish.  They are nice but I think you get an AARP discount when you buy one...jussayin

I resemble that comment!  

I said before, I think these boats are going to take us over.  Cobalt definitely likes to keep a more 'mature' look to them.  But Monterrey and several others have gotten into the colored vinyl and more edgy graphics to look less old.  I don't think they do it very well, but they are trying.  They will eventually get there.  

[DarkSide]

My local cobalt dealer is working to plumb additional 1100's in.  They have added bags before and he claims wave is Very good.   They are also a Nautique dealer, so they know a good/bad wave.  

I was kind of surprised there was an R7 at our boat show, it was same price as my 257.  I still like the inboard better,  but a cobalt would not be bad.