Ski wake 22VLX vs 21VLX

[isellacuras]

@85 Barefoot, that's what I meant. thanks for correcting.  i rode a 2013 with a wake hull and it porpoised at 31mph. I am not sure if he was running bow ballast. I do

[Fman]

With my 2011 and 2013 vlx the only time I experienced porpoising is when wakeboarding when the wedge was engaged at too steep of an angle.  I have never heard of a boat porpoising at 28-30mph.  Not that it's not possible just seems strange at that speed.  My 2015 vlx had much less issues with any type of porpoising I believe because the boat is heavier and longer.

[isellacuras]

I wakeboard with stock ballast full and close to max wedge. No porpousing. Strange that we have such a difference of experience. @FmanYou have waaaaay more experience with a wake hull than me so I will take your word. 

[Fman]

1 hour ago, isellacuras said:

I wakeboard with stock ballast full and close to max wedge. No porpousing. Strange that we have such a difference of experience. @FmanYou have waaaaay more experience with a wake hull than me so I will take your word. 

Could be from the wake hull compared to your diamond?  I found anything above 3-4 clicks up for wakeboarding put the boat on verge of porpoising.  If we moved someone in the bow it would help.  This only happened when the wedge was engaged past 3-4 clicks depending on speed.  Possible the diamond hull helps with porpoising?  I have no experience with a diamond hull so your definitely way above my experience level with that hull design.

[isellacuras]

Bottom line is a diamond hull is not going to slow down your wakeboarding.  Any of these boats throw a world class wake with diamond or wake hulls.  Is one better than another?  Maaaaybe.  Different?  Possibly. I am in the camp that in a blind test, there would be no distinguishable difference.  I believe the difference to be snake oil and marketing hype which are important for sales and re sales.  I believe Malibu has made their bed by hyping both so now they must continue to offer them, not to offend the other camp.  ICBW

[2THEL8K]

On 2/2/2017 at 5:34 AM, 85 Barefoot said:

Folks who are saying the diamond hull makes it "OK" for surfing and riding are just wrong.  It's their speculation evidenced by their disclosure here they haven't tested them.  There are many dealers who order all stock boats in diamond.  I've had prolly 3 diamond v drives and 3 wake v drives.  The ONLY area where there is any noticeable difference is above 28-30 mph.  There is no adverse effect on wake speeds.  In fact, I even disagree with the poster that said the diamond doesn't ride as well in rough water.  Go back to when the 23 LSV was initially released way long ago and it ONLY came on the diamond and I still have the marketing video talking about its rough water ride because it lightens the boat.  I've had both, and, frankly, I can't say I noticed a big difference, but the diamond was certainly not worse.  The GS22 is a heavy, heavy boat.  You can't defy the laws of physics.  A trim plate is not likely to make the slalom wake better.  It may help with some size, but will likely harden the crests significantly.  See threads on slaloming with the scarpa plate.  Even people running wedge in lift have reportedly had mixed results.  I'm still a believer that with the right prop (appropriately steep), Malibu has the most versatile hulls if you're including skiing with the diamond.

Than you for the additional feedback.  I absolutely plan on taking both boats on the water before committing to a purchase.  In fact, I'll be in Orlando in a few weeks and am working on lining up a tour of the Nautique facility there.  My heart/gut is still leaning towards the 22VLX.  I'm having a hard time getting past some of the styling queues in the GS (namely the bow design) , but would like to check out the boat performance for each at different speeds.

[2THEL8K]

15 hours ago, isellacuras said:

Bottom line is a diamond hull is not going to slow down your wakeboarding.  Any of these boats throw a world class wake with diamond or wake hulls.  Is one better than another?  Maaaaybe.  Different?  Possibly. I am in the camp that in a blind test, there would be no distinguishable difference.  I believe the difference to be snake oil and marketing hype which are important for sales and re sales.  I believe Malibu has made their bed by hyping both so now they must continue to offer them, not to offend the other camp.  ICBW

I generally tend to agree after reading through all of the feedback.  Regarding the marketing hype specifically, what I like about the GS marketing is that their video shows all three sports behind their 22ft boat, namely a slalom skier ripping across the wake.  While you cant tell what the wake quality is, their video addresses all three sports directly from a visual perspective. 

In the Malibu description/reviews for the 22VLX, it's billed as an amazing multi-sport boat, but their slalom segment in their video doesn't show the boat itself, just a skier cutting across a good looking wake.  For all I know, that wake could be from a different boat.  I might be nit picking here, I just like how Nautique clearly shows their product in use for all three sports, Malibu makes it a little less clear.  I've done youtube searches for examples of people skiing behind a 22VLX and have not been able to find anything, so as they say, I guess the "truth is on the water", and I plan on scheduling a ride soon.

[Sailvi767]

The GS22 video does show a slalom skier behind the boat running a slalom course. Most claimed multisport boats don't attempt that. There should be some real world reviews in the next 90 days to back that up or prove it's not really true. 

[ahopkins22LSV]

55 minutes ago, Sailvi767 said:

The GS22 video does show a slalom skier behind the boat running a slalom course. Most claimed multisport boats don't attempt that. There should be some real world reviews in the next 90 days to back that up or prove it's not really true. 

FWIW, that skier is Nate Smith. The number one slalom skier in the world. He was skiing at 32' off and 36mph. The wake crossings didn't look that bad in the video so I reached out to him on facebook to see what his thoughts were at slower speeds and longer line lengths like the rest of the world skis. I received no reply. I don't think the wake is going to be nearly that good at slower speeds and longer lines because you won't be in front of the rooster trails, but time will tell.

[2THEL8K]

On 2/2/2017 at 8:53 AM, JeffC said:

Sounds like you and I are weighing the same issues.   I am a recreational slalom skier, and am old enough that I am planning on transitioning more and more to surfing as I become less willing to take on the pain of losing an edge and doing my patented double barrel roll with a half twist (dont ask me how I know about that pain).   I have a deposit down on a 22 VLX, but have been looking at the GS22 as well.   I looked pretty hard a the Malibu, Mastercraft, and Nautique boats at the Denver boat show last month.

What I think I have heard as a consensus opinion was that the 22 VLX will be skiable with a diamond (understanding nowhere near a DD), the surf wave will be awesome with the right recipe, and the trade off of the diamond hull would be a somewhat compromised wakeboard wake.   If that is true, then the 22 VLX is probably the right boat for me, as I will never be doing wild tricks on a wakeboard, I will be able to finish out my slalom days (3-5 years), and get into surfing a lot.   What wakeboarding I do will not be anything extreme, so I dont think I will miss the wake hull.

I absolutely liked the looks/fit/finish of the Malibu the best of the bunch.   I liked the 22 VLX better than the 21 VLX for the interior space (wider beam).   I was very serious about a 20 VTX as it looked like an awesome boat, but with the crew size and our usage pattern, we think it would be a little too small.   My wife was pretty sold on the interior size of the 22 VLX.

In the end, everything is a balance to me... I will be taking a pull behind the VLX soon, and that will be my final decision, but at the moment it seems to be in the sweet spot for how we will use it.

If you don't mind sharing your experience behind the VLX, that would be great.  It does sound like we are going through the same analysis.  I also think you summed up the feedback well, this thread has been very helpful.

[JeffC]

2 hours ago, 2THEL8K said:

If you don't mind sharing your experience behind the VLX, that would be great.  It does sound like we are going through the same analysis.  I also think you summed up the feedback well, this thread has been very helpful.

Happy to do so... not sure when I will get to take a pull, but hopefully will not be too long.   Weather is supposed to improve this weekend, but I dont know what the state of the lake is.

[Jusmud]

5 hours ago, 2THEL8K said:

If you don't mind sharing your experience behind the VLX, that would be great.  It does sound like we are going through the same analysis.  I also think you summed up the feedback well, this thread has been very helpful.

2THEL8K.

You will not be disappointed with the 22 VLX at all.

Love mine .....

[jjackkrash]

7 hours ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

FWIW, that skier is Nate Smith. The number one slalom skier in the world. He was skiing at 32' off and 36mph. The wake crossings didn't look that bad in the video so I reached out to him on facebook to see what his thoughts were at slower speeds and longer line lengths like the rest of the world skis. I received no reply. I don't think the wake is going to be nearly that good at slower speeds and longer lines because you won't be in front of the rooster trails, but time will tell.

I suspect Nate Smith would look smooth on a 2x4 behind a Bayliner.   

[ahopkins22LSV]

2 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

I suspect Nate Smith would look smooth on a 2x4 behind a Bayliner.   

Kinda my point

[Sailvi767]

12 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

I suspect Nate Smith would look smooth on a 2x4 behind a Bayliner.   

If he is coming from a 2000 VLX he will not like the slalom wake. That era VLX had perhaps the best slalom wake of any vdrive. The VLX22 is a much bigger and 1500lb heavier boat. Those old VLX's have almost a cult following by some skiers and have excellent resale.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Sailvi767

[jjackkrash]

@Sailvi767, I hear you.  I learned to ski behind deep-v outboards with steep hard wakes, which I think helped me learn to stay stacked behind the boat.  I didn't mind the wake back then because I was young and because I didn't know any better.  After getting spoiled behind direct drive purpose-built ski boats, its tough to go back, both because of the wake and the way the boat handles when you are in the seat.

All that said, some of the boats getting marketed as "crossover" or "multi sport" boats that supposedly have good ski wakes that push or exceed 5k pounds dry seems like a stretch to me.  I'd be open to being proved wrong, but that is a lot of weight to deal with both for ski wake and handling, especially when a lot of that weight is in the stern in the motor.  

[2THEL8K]

On 2/3/2017 at 3:12 PM, Jusmud said:

2THEL8K.

You will not be disappointed with the 22 VLX at all.

Love mine .....

Thx, definitely leaning hard in this direction ;-)

[BLSousa]

On 2/2/2017 at 8:53 AM, JeffC said:

Sounds like you and I are weighing the same issues.   I am a recreational slalom skier, and am old enough that I am planning on transitioning more and more to surfing as I become less willing to take on the pain of losing an edge and doing my patented double barrel roll with a half twist (dont ask me how I know about that pain).   I have a deposit down on a 22 VLX, but have been looking at the GS22 as well.   I looked pretty hard a the Malibu, Mastercraft, and Nautique boats at the Denver boat show last month.

What I think I have heard as a consensus opinion was that the 22 VLX will be skiable with a diamond (understanding nowhere near a DD), the surf wave will be awesome with the right recipe, and the trade off of the diamond hull would be a somewhat compromised wakeboard wake.   If that is true, then the 22 VLX is probably the right boat for me, as I will never be doing wild tricks on a wakeboard, I will be able to finish out my slalom days (3-5 years), and get into surfing a lot.   What wakeboarding I do will not be anything extreme, so I dont think I will miss the wake hull.

I absolutely liked the looks/fit/finish of the Malibu the best of the bunch.   I liked the 22 VLX better than the 21 VLX for the interior space (wider beam).   I was very serious about a 20 VTX as it looked like an awesome boat, but with the crew size and our usage pattern, we think it would be a little too small.   My wife was pretty sold on the interior size of the 22 VLX.

In the end, everything is a balance to me... I will be taking a pull behind the VLX soon, and that will be my final decision, but at the moment it seems to be in the sweet spot for how we will use it.

I was/am in an almost identical situation as JeffC all the way down to the "double barrel roll with a half twist" (sorry, I didn't realize I was infringing on your patent, I'll be sure to share the royalties) ?

We ordered a 22 VLX diamond for the same reasons shared by JeffC. We looked at the GS20/22, VTX, 21 VLX, 22 VLX, and the 23 LSV. We really like the fit/finish of the Nautiques but didn't like the angular interior of the rear seat. We had the same issue with the 21 VLX. 23 LSV wouldn't fit in our garage. We are right in the middle of three Malibu dealers and all three said "GET THE DIAMOND!!!" 

The GS slalom wake is the real deal. BUT it is a 34 mph wake and has its good rope lengths and bad lengths.  I am a 30-32 mph skier.  My wife and I both hit our head on the tower when stepping down into the GS and that pretty much closed the door on the nautique. 

Really looking ing forward to getting our 22 VLX. 

[canderson]

I ski behind my 2006 Response LXI at 34mph at 35 off,  I need to get something more family oriented that I can drive around the entire lake and take the kids tubing or surfing.  Is there such an SUV of boats out there to ski at that speed and not jump the wake but still do the other things mentioned?

[Eagleboy99]

Conventional wisdom is saying the VTX.  Certainly, some of the videos support that.  It is no slalom tug or course mule, but it should be just fine at you speed/length.

[UWSkier]

@ahopkinsVTX went from a TXI to a VTX last year and took some videos.  Should be able to find them with a search here.  You'll get a little bit of rope interference at 35 off if you're skiing from the removable center pylon but you might be surprised by the lack of wake inside of 28 off from some of these more ski-friendly v-drives.

To put your mind at ease a bit, here's a video of me at 32' off on a new ski (thus the poor skiing) behind a "SUV."  This is the venerable 2001 Sunsetter VLX.  There are V drives that ski really well, especially inside of 22 off.  I don't think the VTX is as good as this but it's probably not a lot worse.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/n715cf3GH4qih5uW9

Edited July 13, 2019 by UWSkier

[Eagleboy99]

  I like my Response.

[UWSkier]

Found @ahopkinsVTX videos on the youtubez.  32 off definitely WAY better than the 28 off video posted by @Eagleboy99

 

[Eagleboy99]

By all accounts the VTX pre 2016 is even better.  But if you have to have a crossover boat, this is pretty much the pinnacle.

[ahopkins22LSV]

11 hours ago, canderson said:

I ski behind my 2006 Response LXI at 34mph at 35 off,  I need to get something more family oriented that I can drive around the entire lake and take the kids tubing or surfing.  Is there such an SUV of boats out there to ski at that speed and not jump the wake but still do the other things mentioned?

I suggest reading the thread I started last spring. It’s long but there is a a lot of detail in it. The ski wake and surf wave reviews are at the end. Let me know if you have any further question but I haven’t looked back on our decision for a second. The vtx is truly an amazing boat. I’ve had a friend ski it who pretty consistently wins men’s 3 States in Michigan and has won regionals a few times as well. He was blown away at how well it skid at 34, -32/-35. The rope does contact the tower but it’s at the apex of your turn when there is no load on it so it’s barely noticeable. 

Here is the link to my thread. Like I said, I think it’s worth the read from start to finish as it sounds like we have similar situations: