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barefootboy

Water in 2 cylinders

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barefootboy

Have a 2003 Malibu wakesetter direct drive. Have found water in 2 cylinders. Nothing wrong with intake or head or gaskets. Motor only has about 100 hours on it. My mechanic suggested the timing could have set timing too high as the cause or he asked me if I ran ballast. I said yes. He said possibilty of water coming in that way. Anyone ever heard of that?

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MadMan

Do you have the exhaust flappers?

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Nitrousbird

Ballast...lol.  I'd love to know how having your boat weighed down put water in two cylinders.

Unless you recent adjusted the timing I also find that hard to believe.  Not winterized properly and a crack in the block would be your typical culprit.

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Steve B.

It can be a crack in a head too. One of my buddy's old 350's, as the engine got hot, crack would open and allow water in. It was tough to figure out.

Good luck,

Steve B.

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svnfightsvn

Or a crack in an exhaust manifold. This happened to me last year. Somehow the water jacket in my manifold developed a crack and water leaked into the cylinder through the exhaust port causing hydrolock 

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barefootboy

Have flappers and put new flappers on last year actually. Mechanic was saying was maybe a possiblity(we are brainstorming because we cannot find anything faulty) maybe water coming in through exhaust when stopping possibly?/  The exhaust run uphill and are supposed to be so high above water line. The guy who put my new motor in last year didn't have initial timing set up properly and came to the lake and really bumped it up. Had a ton more pwer but was always very hard to initially start. Once the motor spun it was no problem. I think it actually filled up the exhaust with water and it really struggled on the initial spin of the motor because it had to push water out. My boat gurgles alot when just sitting in the water(takes in water through exhaust, why I replaced the flaps but no change). Always though that strange. We sent head off and had it tested and examined manifold. Can't find anything. I always drain everything good before winter and store it in the garage where it never gets very cold

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MadMan

Are the 2 offending cylinder adjacent to each other?

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Steve B.

The big question is, is there water in the oil pan? If not, I'm thinkin' somehow it's coming in from an exhaust issue. If it was 3 and 6, water would make it into the lifter valley, then the oil pan.

Steve B.

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barefootboy

Don't have the answer to that. It will be getting charged soon 

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Steve B.

Next question. Motor has 100 hours since rebuild, or since new ? And you've had it running successfully for a couple years, then this issue popped up?

Steve B. :)

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barefootboy

New motor. Put in Aug of 2015. Ran fine after timing was bumped up  for probably 60-70 hours. Then lost a bunch of top end. Had cylinders checked and no compression in 2 cylinders. Only about 90 lbs in another.  On engine number 3 but that is a whole other story 

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Woodski

@barefootboy:  Hopefully some info that will help you track down the issue.  One question, with the new engine did they use the same camshaft or did you install a more aggressive one?  Why, because when you shut off the engine and the engine cools, the open exhaust valve will draw in the fluid (and I use that term for both air and water here) that is in the exhaust pipe or system and a more aggressive camshaft will tend to exacerbate that event.  Touching on your other comments, advanced or retarded timing that will cause additional heat in the cylinder head or exhaust manifolds and if the boat is sitting lower in the water (due to ballast) thus shortening the distance from the waterline to the bottom of the exhaust elbow are items that can also create the same water ingestion issue.  When you build up a marine engine, and in the process install aftermarket exhaust manifolds, the recommendation when going with a more aggressive camshaft is to install a riser that moves the water mixing holes farther down or at a lower level from the previous versions.

You commented on hard to start issues, unfortunately that might have been some hydro locking and with the starter trying to compress a liquid with both valves closed, there is a tendency to bend a connecting rod, if you have the heads off I would certainly check the TDC piston height for all 8 cylinders.

As for gurgling, this type of exhaust system does fill with water to the waterline, flappers or no flappers when you drop the boat in from an elevated position, so not uncommon event.   As long as the waterline stays above the exhaust elbow things are okay.  The flappers are for reverse and fast stops where the water tends to rush up on the transom.

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Michigan boarder
17 hours ago, Steve B. said:

The big question is, is there water in the oil pan? If not, I'm thinkin' somehow it's coming in from an exhaust issue. If it was 3 and 6, water would make it into the lifter valley, then the oil pan.

Steve B.

 

17 hours ago, barefootboy said:

Don't have the answer to that. It will be getting charged soon 

Do you recall if the oil was a milky looking color?  That would indicate water in the oil pan (it turns milky when the oil and water are mixed up).

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Michigan boarder
On 1/15/2017 at 9:41 AM, barefootboy said:

Have a 2003 Malibu wakesetter direct drive. Have found water in 2 cylinders. Nothing wrong with intake or head or gaskets. Motor only has about 100 hours on it. My mechanic suggested the timing could have set timing too high as the cause or he asked me if I ran ballast. I said yes. He said possibilty of water coming in that way. Anyone ever heard of that?

 

16 hours ago, barefootboy said:

New motor. Put in Aug of 2015. Ran fine after timing was bumped up  for probably 60-70 hours. Then lost a bunch of top end. Had cylinders checked and no compression in 2 cylinders. Only about 90 lbs in another.  On engine number 3 but that is a whole other story 

If there was nothing wrong with the head gaskets, do you know why there was zero compression?  Sounds like you guys pulled the heads, is that correct?

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MadMan
23 hours ago, barefootboy said:

3 and 6

This could be a big clue.  3 and 6 are back to back in the firing order, so it might point to the water getting into the cylinders while the cranks was spinning.  A couple of possibilities:

- Shutting down the engine from wide open quickly (I think Mercruiser recommends against this).  The idea being, with the crank still spinning quickly and the throttle closed, a large vacuum is created in the intake manifold.  Then, during the camshaft overlap period, with both the intake and exhaust valves slightly open, this vacuum is transferred to the exhaust, and water is pulled in.

- If your engines diesels when it is shut off, sometimes it will diesel backwards, pulling water in through the exhaust.

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barefootboy

@Woodski Pretty sure the stock cam shaft was used. Running ballast seems to be the most logical explanation at this point. Just strange I have Never heard of that being an issue with anyone before. Thank you for the great info!

@Michigan boarder There was some water in the oil. I asked him but did not physically see it. He showed my 2 valves that were CUPPED real bad. Assuming that is why No compression. Sent the heads off and had them tested. Thansk

@MadMan Interesting about crank spinning and causing a vacuum. The original engine did diesel but the new one hasn't ever. Thanks

 

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Sixball

Ouch! I hope you look at woodski's post again!  If you had hydro lock bad enough to cup valves I would want to see the rods and bearings. Could be some damage down in them parts! 

 

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Steve B.

Ugh, sorry barefoot dude. The culprit is still a mystery. The exhaust system will have to be investigated. What are ya thinkin' as far as the engine ?

Best of luck,

Steve B.

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Happy to ride

Have you looked close at the lower intake manifold gasket? If the oil is not white that means the water is only on the top of the pistons. You can get a little water in the oil as the water gets passed the rings but if that is the case it will take awhile to color the oil white. Water that enters the motor through the intake manifold can also cause the cupping on the valves. I would look close at the manifold for signs of rust.  Just an idea. Good luck

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barefootboy

@Sixball we are hoping it is just upper end. Mechanic feels pretty good about it. Going to put in early this year to leave time to fix if we have another issue.

@Steve B. My thinking is it is exhaust. I have never heard of anyone having an issue though. We replaced top end and hoping that will be the fix. Moving forward not sure about our surfing though

@Happy to rideNo signs of anything on the intake side

Thanks everyone!

 

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Sixball

As I think Woodski said a dial indicator would only take a very short time and could tell an awful lot.  A lower end issue is something you will not want to face. Time and cost could be extensive. Just easy at this point. No more disassembly to get a good idea of internal damage.  

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Woodski

@barefootboy:  Which valves are cupped?  Cold water hitting hot exhaust valves would be a recipe for cupping a valve.

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