Helping me picking sub and amp...

[WakeGates]

I have the WS --XXX 12" powered by an SD2. It is a very good sub. I have no issues with it, other than I am looking to upgrade to a custom box. It has a ton of base!

 

[r33pwrd]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 8:44 AM, WakeGates said:

I have the WS --XXX 12" powered by an SD2. It is a very good sub. I have no issues with it, other than I am looking to upgrade to a custom box. It has a ton of base!

 

I'm 99 percent sure that is what I am going to do...  Are you going to a ported box or sealed?

[WakeGates]

3 hours ago, r33pwrd said:

I'm 99 percent sure that is what I am going to do...  Are you going to a ported box or sealed?

I am going with a sealed box as of now! I don't think you can go wrong with the sub and amp. I was blown away with the difference in factory vs Wet Sounds.

[r33pwrd]

so its about time I need to order a sub and amp..

Idea #1 WS XXX with SD2 in ported box

Idea #2 JL13W7 with 1200 watt JL amp in a sealed box

So leaning towards option 2 in a sealed box for the tighter bass and easier to make / fit box.. thoughts on this? Or am I over thinking this  

[David]

17 hours ago, r33pwrd said:

so its about time I need to order a sub and amp..

Idea #1 WS XXX with SD2 in ported box

Idea #2 JL13W7 with 1200 watt JL amp in a sealed box

So leaning towards option 2 in a sealed box for the tighter bass and easier to make / fit box.. thoughts on this? Or am I over thinking this  

I like both of those subwoofers. They do different things but both do their thing very well.

If going the JL Audio 13W7 I would seriously consider two HD750/1s, one per each seriesed voice coil.  

[minnmarker]

If you're going to go with two amps (or one) and want to save some serious $$ look at the Kicker CX1200.1

$170 on Amazon.  Not warrantied but even if it blows (which mine has not) you can still buy 3 of them for the price of one JL amp.

[MLA]

I would check with the marine installers at amazon first. That cx1200.1 is not a good choice for either woofer.

[r33pwrd]

1 hour ago, David said:

I like both of those subwoofers. They do different things but both do their thing very well.

If going the JL Audio 13W7 I would seriously consider two HD750/1s, one per each seriesed voice coil.  

More options lol I would really like to stick to one amp for the sub if possible as I'm running out of room on my amp rack  the one thing I don't like about the JL is the 1.5 ohm coils limiting you to amp options

[r33pwrd]

43 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

If you're going to go with two amps (or one) and want to save some serious $$ look at the Kicker CX1200.1

$170 on Amazon.  Not warrantied but even if it blows (which mine has not) you can still buy 3 of them for the price of one JL amp.

I'm not trying to save money I just want a very good sounding reliable system.... I get short summers and I don't want to ever be without a stereo because I was trying to save a few bucks. 

[David]

22 minutes ago, r33pwrd said:

More options lol I would really like to stick to one amp for the sub if possible as I'm running out of room on my amp rack  the one thing I don't like about the JL is the 1.5 ohm coils limiting you to amp options

The JL HD amplifiers are stackable making for a very small footprint. JL HD 1200 watts will do the job very well, especially since it's strictly regulated, provides true power with all reasonable supply voltages, and most important, always remains robust sounding during long and short voltage dips. The dual HD750/1 1500 watt option gets every bit of potential performance from the 13W7, and offers exceptional thermal stability since the load is spread across twice the power supply and twice the heat sink mass.       

[minnmarker]

1 hour ago, MLA said:

I would check with the marine installers at amazon first. That cx1200.1 is not a good choice for either woofer.

Snarky...

Why not?  And practically speaking please.  I know there are some features of WS and JL amps that might give the extra 10% but what's wrong with Kicker (or RF for that matter) for us that don't care and/or cannot tell the difference between optimal and 90% of optimal in an semi closed side and open top environment with strange acoustics and lots of variable background noise?  I'm not talking about Boss or Pyle amps.

Another thing I've wondered about is the effect of the cabin speakers facing each other.  Can anyone please explain the harmonics.

Thanks

[r33pwrd]

40 minutes ago, David said:

The JL HD amplifiers are stackable making for a very small footprint. JL HD 1200 watts will do the job very well, especially since it's strictly regulated, provides true power with all reasonable supply voltages, and most important, always remains robust sounding during long and short voltage dips. The dual HD750/1 1500 watt option gets every bit of potential performance from the 13W7, and offers exceptional thermal stability since the load is spread across twice the power supply and twice the heat sink mass.       

DO you think the dual amp setup with the 13W7 in a sealed box will out perform the Sinister 2 running the XXX sub in a ported enclosure?  I have always run sealed boxes in my cars so my current setup is the first I have had with ported and while its loud I feel its "sloppy" Thank you

[David]

38 minutes ago, r33pwrd said:

DO you think the dual amp setup with the 13W7 in a sealed box will out perform the Sinister 2 running the XXX sub in a ported enclosure?  I have always run sealed boxes in my cars so my current setup is the first I have had with ported and while its loud I feel its "sloppy" Thank you

Like I said before, these are two great options.

Sealed versus ported in a car? In a car cabin you are combining the in-cabin response with the woofer/enclosure response. With the cabin gain of the vehicle that is biased towards the low end, I prefer the earlier and more gradual roll-off of a sealed system, 'IF' I am dealing with a subwoofer like the JL 13W7 because it so linear and goes so deep. That would definitely change if using a different sub driver or a smaller 8-inch sub for example.

But there are a lot of variables. In a boat you only get incidental energy as there is no reflected radiation like you have in a car cabin.

You mention "sloppy" as a description of ported. Or you could say a "one note wonder". That is truly the case in some bass-reflex misalignments, like an SPL alignment for example. But in a well-designed SQ alignment using the correct driver that's not the case at all. You can have a smooth response that has the advantage of greater output and deeper bass extension. Keep in mind that some (actually most) of the best home speakers in the world are bass-reflex and those people who spend $100K on a pair of speakers do not tolerate "sloppy". The difference is going to be in the design and execution of the enclosure.

Make sure you use a dealer who is well versed and you will get what you are after.     

[MLA]

1 hour ago, minnmarker said:

Snarky...

Why not?  And practically speaking please.  I know there are some features of WS and JL amps that might give the extra 10% but what's wrong with Kicker (or RF for that matter) for us that don't care and/or cannot tell the difference between optimal and 90% of optimal in an semi closed side and open top environment with strange acoustics and lots of variable background noise?  I'm not talking about Boss or Pyle amps.

Another thing I've wondered about is the effect of the cabin speakers facing each other.  Can anyone please explain the harmonics.

Thanks

If that was snarky, good thing i erased what I first penned 

Seriously. Quite often I suggest people go consult with their retailer regarding system design. if places like amazon do not offer such support, then maybe look to some other outlets that do.

I think you may have misinterpreted my comment. Im likely the biggest proponent of Kicker marine out there. I do not have a problem with the use of the Kicker brand, as long as its the right component for the job. Please reread my comments and you will see that I have an issue with that particular amp matched with either of those woofers.

Now on to the why of it all. 1) the CX1200 will not run lower than 2 ohm. So with the XXXv2, it would have to be wired in series @ 4 ohm. This nets the woofer 600W rms. WAY too light wattage wise. 2) the CX1200 has a fixed subsonic filter. This may hinder the ported enclosure/woofer tuning. Id suggest the KX or IQ series. I like the KX2400.1 for XXXv2. 3) with the 13W7 wired in series to 3 ohm, the CX1200 would deliver somewhere in the 900W rms range. Kinda light for a woofer like the 13W7 with a $1300 retail price tag.  The KX or brand new KXA 1600.1 would be a better match 

[shawndoggy]

23 minutes ago, MLA said:

2) the CX1200 has a fixed subsonic filter. This may hinder the ported enclosure/woofer tuning.

MLA could you speak to this a bit?  FWIW, the JL 750/1s that David is recommending also have a fixed subsonic filter (30Hz IIRC).  

Which woofers/alignments have you found the fixed subsonic filter to be limiting?  I haven't really heard many people recommend a box tuned for under 30hz in a boat, but you guys have more experience than me, so maybe there are cases where that's where you go?

[minnmarker]

24 minutes ago, MLA said:

If that was snarky, good thing i erased what I first penned 

Seriously. Quite often I suggest people go consult with their retailer

Now on to the why of it all. 1) the CX1200 will not run lower than 2 ohm. So with the XXXv2, it would have to be wired in series @ 4 ohm. This nets the woofer 600W rms. WAY too light wattage wise. 2) the CX1200 has a fixed subsonic filter.

OK, thanks for the good information.  I also confess to have backspaced out of my first words in forum posts a few times...  And I remember the days when the only people you could consult with were retailers and friends.  Pre internet.  Yes, I'm that old, but not too old to learn online.

The inadequate wattage of the CX1200 in a < 2 ohm dual coil woofer setup certainly disqualifies it.  My bad.  Question: Is getting below 25 Hz (or limiting Hz to above 25) really beneficial in a boat audio system?  Could 20 Hz even be heard - or felt - in the boat "space?"

My view of boat audio is kind of like tasting fine wine after eating Buffalo wings.  The $100 bottle (amp) may be better than the $25 bottle (amp) but you would never be able to tell the difference over all the background flavors (noise/reflection) in your mouth (boat).  But I am open to conversion.

[shawndoggy]

2 minutes ago, minnmarker said:

The inadequate wattage of the CX1200 in a < 2 ohm dual coil woofer setup certainly disqualifies it.  My bad.  Question: Is getting below 25 Hz (or limiting Hz to above 25) really beneficial in a boat audio system?  Could 20 Hz even be heard - or felt - in the boat "space?"

Subsonic filter is basically a low pass crossover to cut out frequencies below the tuning frequency of the box where you can damage a sub.  IIRC not really an issue in sealed alignments, just ported, and you want to cut at/around the enclosure tuning frequency.

(I'm sure mike and david will chime in with what I've gotten wrong)

[David]

7 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

MLA could you speak to this a bit?  FWIW, the JL 750/1s that David is recommending also have a fixed subsonic filter (30Hz IIRC).  

Which woofers/alignments have you found the fixed subsonic filter to be limiting?  I haven't really heard many people recommend a box tuned for under 30hz in a boat, but you guys have more experience than me, so maybe there are cases where that's where you go?

ShawnD,

That's a good question and if you don't mind I'd like to answer it in part. Much of this Mike and I have had discussion on privately. There are many subwoofers that are very narrow bandwidth resonators with big SPL if you pump enough power to them. Not mentioning brands, but you know of the many imports that use the same parts. Dual spiders, a crazy stiff suspension, triple stacked magnets, etc. And made to take serious abuse. That crowd believes that ring and overhang is output. Many like to tune these at a higher bass-reflex frequency for giant one-note peak SPL monsters. And that leaves the woofer especially undamped and exposed to damage at lower frequencies, those frequencies below the range of the tuning frequency. I know of a Texas dealer who seems to be stubbornly addicted to this approach regardless of which brand or model of subwoofer used. So not everyone tunes their sub at 30 to 35 Hz. Worse, is that the T/S parameters of many of those imported subs are bogus. So you may never know what the true center tuning frequency is until completion. Btw, a bad bass-reflex design can also yield some risky impedance curves that can cause an amplifier thermal issues. Another place where a variable filter might be helpful.         

[David]

Just now, shawndoggy said:

Subsonic filter is basically a low pass crossover to cut out frequencies below the tuning frequency of the box where you can damage a sub.  IIRC not really an issue in sealed alignments, just ported, and you want to cut at/around the enclosure tuning frequency.

(I'm sure mike and david will chime in with what I've gotten wrong)

100%. Yes, a subsonic is a high pass filter. And like all filters, has its own phase rotation. So you might avoid it if you don't need it, or run it low enough where is has no phasing impact. I agree that you probably wouldn't use it if running a sealed system with such a large subwoofer.    

[MLA]

4 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

MLA could you speak to this a bit?  FWIW, the JL 750/1s that David is recommending also have a fixed subsonic filter (30Hz IIRC).  

Which woofers/alignments have you found the fixed subsonic filter to be limiting?  I haven't really heard many people recommend a box tuned for under 30hz in a boat, but you guys have more experience than me, so maybe there are cases where that's where you go?

 

4 hours ago, minnmarker said:

OK, thanks for the good information.  I also confess to have backspaced out of my first words in forum posts a few times...  And I remember the days when the only people you could consult with were retailers and friends.  Pre internet.  Yes, I'm that old, but not too old to learn online.

The inadequate wattage of the CX1200 in a < 2 ohm dual coil woofer setup certainly disqualifies it.  My bad.  Question: Is getting below 25 Hz (or limiting Hz to above 25) really beneficial in a boat audio system?  Could 20 Hz even be heard - or felt - in the boat "space?"

My view of boat audio is kind of like tasting fine wine after eating Buffalo wings.  The $100 bottle (amp) may be better than the $25 bottle (amp) but you would never be able to tell the difference over all the background flavors (noise/reflection) in your mouth (boat).  But I am open to conversion.

Depending on the woofer and enclosure design, we may actually want a higher cut off, not lower. This is where a variable subsonic comes in handy. 25-30 Hz seems to be a very common fixed filter point for amps with a fixed filter. We might get a little more peak out of the woofer and drive it a little hotter by cutting off the lower end just a little. In a boat, we might just not miss it. 

Sometimes its not the taste of the wine, but the container it comes in. A carafe is easy to pour than a salad bowl. Having a variable subsonic filter and turning it up a couple clicks higher than what a lesser amps fixed subsonic might be, could be all the difference in how the woofers sounds and performs. 

[jjackkrash]

 

On 1/3/2017 at 11:02 AM, David said:

 JL HD 1200 watts will do the job very well, especially since it's strictly regulated, provides true power with all reasonable supply voltages, and most important, always remains robust sounding during long and short voltage dips. 

This point can't be stressed enough when you are running off batteries and the alternator isn't running.  These tiny little JL power house amps are the bees knees in a marine application.  

Edited January 6, 2017 by jjackkrash

[ConnollyCrew]

On 1/2/2017 at 5:35 PM, r33pwrd said:

so its about time I need to order a sub and amp..

Idea #1 WS XXX with SD2 in ported box

Idea #2 JL13W7 with 1200 watt JL amp in a sealed box

So leaning towards option 2 in a sealed box for the tighter bass and easier to make / fit box.. thoughts on this? Or am I over thinking this  

Ported ....IMHO 

[r33pwrd]

Just got back from CES and holly crap there is some nice stereo stuff out there.. the odd part is both companies I am looking at for my boat where not there (JL and Wetsounds) but still a lot of cool stuff there!

[jonyb]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 7:35 AM, ConnollyCrew said:

Had and SD6 and ran the last two Channels  bridged (600rms) on an XS-12 in a ported and properly tuned box and it sounded great with good bass output. I was told that the bass carried quite a long way as well. 

 

On ‎12‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 11:46 AM, r33pwrd said:

So doing a completely new stereo (only reusing the Exile towers) so far I have bought a Sinister SD6 for my 6 cabin speakers (2 sets of the XS-808’s and a set of the XS-650) and a Sinister SD2 to run my Exile surf style towers.  I think this is a solid starting point but can’t decide on what sub and amp setup to do.  Originally I was going to do the WS XS-XXX 12” sub powered by another Sinister SD2 but cannot find many good reviews on it.  My other thought is a JL 1200 watt amp and 13W7…. Ideally I would like amps to match but sound quality is more important to me.  (I will do a ported enclosure under the driver’s helm).  Also for reference I was running the Exile 12” off the javaline 5 channel amp.

 

Thank you

JL was there, but they have private quarters at a hotel down the road.  makes it great for dealers wanting to get their product.

 

Wet Sounds does something big at SEMA and skips CES.  Lots of 12V manufacturers are doing that these days.  Can't blame them.  I went to CES a couple years ago and wont go back.

[MLA]

4 hours ago, r33pwrd said:

Just got back from CES and holly crap there is some nice stereo stuff out there.. the odd part is both companies I am looking at for my boat where not there (JL and Wetsounds) but still a lot of cool stuff there!

Yeah, gotta catch Wet Sounds at SEMA or IBEX. The past couple years, JL has not been in the hall with the other mobile 12V but up in a suite in the Venetian towers. We didnt go to CES this year due to a changed boat show schedule, opted to do IBEX back in Oct. instead.