2016 G23 vs. 2017 24MXZ

[shawndoggy]

Man I cannot believe what a hard time @DarkSide is getting when (if I'm interpreting his rationale correctly) he's saying "look I run a 24MXZ heavier than anyone, and it turns out after a couple hundred hours I start having reliability problems which I attribute to running the boat so hard."  What's wrong with making the decision to go next level wake traktor?  Seems like being prudent about buying the right tool for the job to me.  Sure, the Ri257 is a very specific tool, but it sounds like it really fits the job that dark is looking to fill.

I mean shoot even for the malibus that @IXFE has run super heavy (last three?), he's still not running them on the duty schedule that Darkside does (AFAIK), dropping the boat in the water, filling everything, then surfing till the fuel tank is empty, EVERY TIME.  That is a very hard life for one of these boats.  Even during his avg 50 hrs of ownership, I'm guessing that maybe half of IXFE's hours are under similar conditions?  

Seems to me both of these guys could be right -- that malibus are generally pretty reliable when used like most people use 'em (some surfing, some wakeboarding, some tubing, some cruising), but if you run bleeding-edge heavy all the time, stuff's gonna start to break eventually.

[DarkSide]

@shawndoggy From my perspective that is 100% correct.  One of the draws was also a 100 gal fuel tank so i can go hard even longer.  Because the 70 gallon MXZ tank only got me 6ish hours.   I am willing to step DOWN a little in fit finish, lose multi sport awesomeness, for a tool that I HOPE will do the one and only one thing better.  I have also said I FULLY EXPECT ISSUES.  I am ok with minor issues, I just dont want the 2+ week outages i have been experiencing, due to MY useage pattern.

[Fman]

36 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Fman, Centurion isn't some new brand like Axis, its been around for 40 years.  It was Rick Lee's baby, who has a great reputation and was always an innovator.    Centurion has now cut every model save for the 3 Ris and the carbon pro.  Why is that?  Clearly, Correct Craft wants to make them a more profitable company and at the same time move upmarket.  They think they can pull more buyers focusing on the Ris and charge at the upper end of the spectrum.  From the sampling size here, seems like a reasonable business decision.  

As for yall quoting 2017 prices the same as 2016, I would have to imagine that is now due to freeing up the line for Ris because that's all they are building.  Also a result of early order rebates and discounts, which, in Malibu's case can be 5% or so of price.  So, a 5% price increase is simply being offset by the rebate.  Come Spring, a 2017 will cost more than a 2016.  

 

I realize it is not a new brand, but they are trying to pull out of there mediocre brand recognition.  I am no marketing expert but taking market share from Malibu and MC will be no easy task.  Pricing there RI line higher or even on par with there competitors is a huge mistake imo.

At least when you buy a KIA or Hyundai it's already priced cheaper than a Honda or Toyota.  This scenario is a double hit, your paying top dollar and taking a much bigger depreciation hit. Regardless if you sell your boat yearly or every ten years nobody wants to own a product that depreciates significantly more than other competing brands.

Just my .02....

[bamaboy]

12 minutes ago, Fman said:

I realize it is not a new brand, but they are trying to pull out of there mediocre brand recognition.  I am no marketing expert but taking market share from Malibu and MC will be no easy task.  Pricing there RI line higher or even on par with there competitors is a huge mistake imo.

At least when you buy a KIA or Hyundai it's already priced cheaper than a Honda or Toyota.  This scenario is a double hit, your paying top dollar and taking a much bigger depreciation hit. Regardless if you sell your boat yearly or every ten years nobody wants to own a product that depreciates significantly more than other competing brands.

Just my .02....

The one caveat here is the surf wave.  The surf wave is like Centurion's trump card.  Sure its not the nicest boat, doesn't perform better than the competition and is a one sport wonder.  But.....when you have hard core Malibu/MC/Nautique guys raving about the surf wave on the interwebs, that is going to sell some boats.

There's a lot of people out there with some cash to burn that just want the biggest, baddest surf wave there is.  And while I haven't demoed one, the Ri seems to be the current undisputed champ.

Edited December 2, 2016 by bamaboy

[85 Barefoot]

36 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Man I cannot believe what a hard time @DarkSide is getting when (if I'm interpreting his rationale correctly) he's saying "look I run a 24MXZ heavier than anyone, and it turns out after a couple hundred hours I start having reliability problems which I attribute to running the boat so hard."  What's wrong with making the decision to go next level wake traktor?  Seems like being prudent about buying the right tool for the job to me.  Sure, the Ri257 is a very specific tool, but it sounds like it really fits the job that dark is looking to fill.

I mean shoot even for the malibus that @IXFE has run super heavy (last three?), he's still not running them on the duty schedule that Darkside does (AFAIK), dropping the boat in the water, filling everything, then surfing till the fuel tank is empty, EVERY TIME.  That is a very hard life for one of these boats.  Even during his avg 50 hrs of ownership, I'm guessing that maybe half of IXFE's hours are under similar conditions?  

Seems to me both of these guys could be right -- that malibus are generally pretty reliable when used like most people use 'em (some surfing, some wakeboarding, some tubing, some cruising), but if you run bleeding-edge heavy all the time, stuff's gonna start to break eventually.

Sd, I have no problem with that rationale or his decision.  In my opinion, however, if he is of the belief that a 257, because its a huge heavy boat and has 5k in ballast standard is going to be somehow immune to any more of a transmission risk or supercharger pulley or rudder box problem, in my OPINION, being around a lot of Centurions, that's just not the case.  There's nothing magically different about a 257s gel to avoid burn from a 10,000# barge.  There's nothing more inherently reliable about the tranny on an H6.  Now, he may not have any issues and that's great, I'm just saying justifying getting a 257 because in some way its more capable of handling 5000#s is flawed in my opinion.  

[85 Barefoot]

15 minutes ago, Fman said:

I realize it is not a new brand, but they are trying to pull out of there mediocre brand recognition.  I am no marketing expert but taking market share from Malibu and MC will be no easy task.  Pricing there RI line higher or even on par with there competitors is a huge mistake imo.

At least when you buy a KIA or Hyundai it's already priced cheaper than a Honda or Toyota.  This scenario is a double hit, your paying top dollar and taking a much bigger depreciation hit. Regardless if you sell your boat yearly or every ten years nobody wants to own a product that depreciates significantly more than other competing brands.

Just my .02....

As to your latter paragraph, I agree.  However, no better way to pull out of mediocre brand recognition than pricing and going toe to toe with mercedes.  They're not going to have trouble selling these boats.  I just don't see that the reason they are is due to some higher quality.  Wave performance is, as bamaboy notes, the trump card.  

[DarkSide]

Fmsn i agree,  a tough job and will require significant marketing.  think sprimt hiring verizon can you hear me now guy!  Similar story different industry

Edited December 2, 2016 by DarkSide

[85 Barefoot]

Just now, DarkSide said:

Fmsn i agree,  a tough job and will require significant marketing.  think sprimt hiring verizon can you hear me now guy!  Similar sorry different industry

Or do exactly what Centurion has done and hire Malibu talent both in design and sales.  

[DarkSide]

That is step one,  getting the product on par (design side) Step two marketing and sales, Move into Malibu's most successful dealers ..Wizard Lake Marine comes to mind.... Step 3.... Repeat step 2 as many times as you can!

[IXFE]

46 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Man I cannot believe what a hard time @DarkSide is getting when (if I'm interpreting his rationale correctly) he's saying "look I run a 24MXZ heavier than anyone, and it turns out after a couple hundred hours I start having reliability problems which I attribute to running the boat so hard."  What's wrong with making the decision to go next level wake traktor?  Seems like being prudent about buying the right tool for the job to me.  Sure, the Ri257 is a very specific tool, but it sounds like it really fits the job that dark is looking to fill.

I mean shoot even for the malibus that @IXFE has run super heavy (last three?), he's still not running them on the duty schedule that Darkside does (AFAIK), dropping the boat in the water, filling everything, then surfing till the fuel tank is empty, EVERY TIME.  That is a very hard life for one of these boats.  Even during his avg 50 hrs of ownership, I'm guessing that maybe half of IXFE's hours are under similar conditions?  

Seems to me both of these guys could be right -- that malibus are generally pretty reliable when used like most people use 'em (some surfing, some wakeboarding, some tubing, some cruising), but if you run bleeding-edge heavy all the time, stuff's gonna start to break eventually.

Good summary, Shawn.  But nobody's giving Dark a hard time for switching.  I think the Ri257 is awesome and a great boat for him and how he uses it.  He knows that.  I have PM's and texts to prove it.  I've been effusive of the Centurion wave on this forum too, including posting numerous pics.  I have ZERO issue with all that.  Ask Baws, who I've also talked to about Ri257.  I think it would be awesome to see him mackin' that BIG BEAST.  Like I said earlier, I know MORE PEOPLE at Fineline than Malibu.  I talk to their sales rep OFTEN (we are friends).  The people who design and build these boats I also consider friends.  Their local dealer... awesome!  Also close family friends, riding buddies, etc.  NO ISSUE.  ZERO.  

The only issue I had and the reason I chimed in was due to the way Dark's post completely derailed Jennifer's topic.  Oh sure, a few other guys mentioned the Centurion as in "Hey, check out the Ri237."  And sure, Dark was asked why he switched.  But consider this... when asked why he switched rather than post a novel full of his own, unique, personal reasons, why not just say, "Hey, PM sent" so the discussion could have stayed with Jennifer and her decision between a 24 MXZ and a G23?  But that didn't happen.  Instead he chose that moment and that place to air it all out in dramatic fashion, introducing details about serious issues never previously discussed here.  Obviously he was keeping alot of that to himself until just then.  I said then and I still believe Jennifer's thread was not the place to air that out.  But since he did and Centurion has now been inserted in the discussion, I figured let's round out the story... IMHO, you can't have a Centurion discussion with a new unsuspecting customer unless you're gonna acknowledge what MANY on this forum have stated... initial price is higher than you might otherwise believe and resale value is questionable (vs. Big 3).  Also, to say that warranty on a Centurion is better than Malibu is hardly a fact.  And finally, for the 10th time, I'm not doubting Dark's experience with his boats.  But it's worth noting that his his experience is not typical and he's been effusive of Malibu support in the past.  Aren't those relevant points to include since Centurion was inserted into a "which do I buy" discussion?

At this point, I'm sorry I chimed in at all.  We're now totally off topic and 7 pages into a brand pissing match, complete with trolls and name calling, which is what I predicted.  Welcome to Wakeworld.  

[shawndoggy]

37 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Sd, I have no problem with that rationale or his decision.  In my opinion, however, if he is of the belief that a 257, because its a huge heavy boat and has 5k in ballast standard is going to be somehow immune to any more of a transmission risk or supercharger pulley or rudder box problem, in my OPINION, being around a lot of Centurions, that's just not the case.  There's nothing magically different about a 257s gel to avoid burn from a 10,000# barge.  There's nothing more inherently reliable about the tranny on an H6.  Now, he may not have any issues and that's great, I'm just saying justifying getting a 257 because in some way its more capable of handling 5000#s is flawed in my opinion.  

oh maybe I've misunderstood then.  Admittedly not following along with the Ri threads all that close, but I thought that the Ri had a beefed up drivetrain? 2:1 tranny, larger shaft, larger prop??  Is that not the case?  Obviously if it's just a similar drivetrain to what malibu is using, but in a much heavier boat, I agree that there's no argument in favor of reliability.

As to the "more capable" thing, the Ri is 5k from the factory, doesn't it?  So I mean I don't think you even need to make the argument about being "more" capable... it IS capable, whereas, at least according to dark's experience, the malibu is not (gel burn claim denied bc 5k ballast is overloading).

[DarkSide]

56 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Sd, I have no problem with that rationale or his decision.  In my opinion, however, if he is of the belief that a 257, because its a huge heavy boat and has 5k in ballast standard is going to be somehow immune to any more of a transmission risk or supercharger pulley or rudder box problem, in my OPINION, being around a lot of Centurions, that's just not the case.  There's nothing magically different about a 257s gel to avoid burn from a 10,000# barge.  There's nothing more inherently reliable about the tranny on an H6.  Now, he may not have any issues and that's great, I'm just saying justifying getting a 257 because in some way its more capable of handling 5000#s is flawed in my opinion.  

Gel burn is a result of not enough spacing between prop and hull.  This is historically a HUGE Centurion problem.  New design team, new thought process.  Larger props more spacing.  The MXZ has 0.75" of clearance with 15" prop, the 237 i demoes had over 3" i could fit my fist between prop and hull.  Problem solved.   The 257 also has more spacing, larger shaft, and 16" prop.

My hope is as these are designed from the factory to push almost 14,000 pounds that they should have designed the tranny to accomodate the torque/hp required.  As PCM is also an CC owned company, they have every incentive to make it reliable.  They dont have the ability to push it back on an outside vendor.  Just my thought process. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by DarkSide

[shawndoggy]

Just now, IXFE said:

Instead he chose that moment and that place to air it all out in dramatic fashion, introducing details about serious issues never previously discussed here.  

If you are looking for boogiemen you'll find them.  Personally I try to find the read for the most reasonable explanation if possible.

The reasonable explanation for the "Shocking Reveal of Previously Undisclosed Details!" is prolly that Dark still owned the boat and didn't want to badmouth Malibu or his dealer while they were still trying to fix it (albeit slowly).  We've all seen where that train leads.  And AFAIK, it's a place you've never been with your own boats (season disrupting mechanical), so you know, glass houses and all that.

Quote

At this point, I'm sorry I chimed in at all.  We're now totally off topic and 7 pages into a brand pissing match, complete with trolls and name calling, which is what I predicted.  Welcome to Wakeworld.  

Well on wakeworld you'd have to contend with 40% of the posts being that wakesurfing is lame in the first place.  I mean it's not a sport, but a worthy summer pastime to be sure.

[IXFE]

Just now, shawndoggy said:

oh maybe I've misunderstood then.  Admittedly not following along with the Ri threads all that close, but I thought that the Ri had a beefed up drivetrain? 2:1 tranny, larger shaft, larger prop??  Is that not the case?  Obviously if it's just a similar drivetrain to what malibu is using, but in a much heavier boat, I agree that there's no argument in favor of reliability.

As to the "more capable" thing, the Ri is 5k from the factory, doesn't it?  So I mean I don't think you even need to make the argument about being "more" capable... it IS capable, whereas, at least according to dark's experience, the malibu is not (gel burn claim denied bc 5k ballast is overloading).

I have no idea on the 257, but the 2106 Ri217 and the 2017 Ri237 that I demo'd had 1.72:1 transmissions (same as Bu) but were still running 14.5" props and making 4500 rpm's at surf speed.  Supposedly the 2017's have a steeper shaft angle in order to fit a bigger prop, but the boats are still shipping with 14.5"  (hence the 3" of clearance that Dark noticed).  I have no doubt that a bigger prop will lower RPM's and I shared that feedback with the factory, the rep, the dealer, etc.  

Here are pics from my 2017 Ri237 demo to show you what I'm referring to.  

[shawndoggy]

Plus, @DarkSide is a pretty trustworthy guy on here... I don't see him being a troll or starting a brand war.  I'm actually looking forward to him keeping us updated on the Ri because I think he can be pretty objective... in the same way that I like to hear from @TallRedRider about his G experiences.

[85 Barefoot]

2 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

oh maybe I've misunderstood then.  Admittedly not following along with the Ri threads all that close, but I thought that the Ri had a beefed up drivetrain? 2:1 tranny, larger shaft, larger prop??  Is that not the case?  Obviously if it's just a similar drivetrain to what malibu is using, but in a much heavier boat, I agree that there's no argument in favor of reliability.

As to the "more capable" thing, the Ri is 5k from the factory, doesn't it?  So I mean I don't think you even need to make the argument about being "more" capable... it IS capable, whereas, at least according to dark's experience, the malibu is not (gel burn claim denied bc 5k ballast is overloading).

All I'm saying is, Centurion has put massive factory weight in the boats for a long time and they are hardly immune to problems associated with that.  With Ri, are they as stout as ever, yes.  All I'm saying is, just because it comes from the factory does not mean it's still not just as much strain on the components as another brand.  Apples to apples does it on paper seem as if its more ready out of the box for 5000#s of weight?  Probably.  I can concede that.  I just don't see his issues with the bu being "prevented" by going to Centurion.  

[IXFE]

9 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

If you are looking for boogiemen you'll find them.  Personally I try to find the read for the most reasonable explanation if possible.

The reasonable explanation for the "Shocking Reveal of Previously Undisclosed Details!" is prolly that Dark still owned the boat and didn't want to badmouth Malibu or his dealer while they were still trying to fix it (albeit slowly).  We've all seen where that train leads.  And AFAIK, it's a place you've never been with your own boats (season disrupting mechanical), so you know, glass houses and all that.

Well on wakeworld you'd have to contend with 40% of the posts being that wakesurfing is lame in the first place.  I mean it's not a sport, but a worthy summer pastime to be sure.

I know exactly why he didn't drop those bombs before.  But come on, man.  This is a Malibu forum.  You can't just come on here, poop all over Malibu in somebody elses thread, and not expect to be called out for it, especially when key details are left out.  

Darkside's novel post reads like a guy with an axe to grind.  Every time I try to grind my wetsounds axe you're the first to call me out and say my experience is not typical.  How's this different?

Edit: I don't think @DarkSide is a troll either.  Never said that.  I was referring to somebody else.  Dark is definitely one of the good guys. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by IXFE

[3sport]

2 hours ago, bamaboy said:

or perhaps just a guy that's willing to call a spade a spade, regardless of where he sees it or how popular it is...

or maybe just a troll.

ps. love the memes by the way - I don't get why they get BS so riled up...

[DarkSide]

48 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

The reasonable explanation for the "Shocking Reveal of Previously Undisclosed Details!" is prolly that Dark still owned the boat and didn't want to badmouth Malibu or his dealer while they were still trying to fix it (albeit slowly).  We've all seen where that train leads.  And AFAIK, it's a place you've never been with your own boats (season disrupting mechanical), so you know, glass houses and all that.

Again very astute!  

Funny how a detailed 500 word explanation of everything you love is lauded, but an explanation of issues is inappropriate.    

I have done NUMEROUS posts about how good the wave can be.  Posts about how awsome the PW2 is, the command center, how freaking amazing the G4 is.  Even in my initial response to what started this "trainwreck" I cast Malibu in a positive.  Saying i like the styling/appearance BETTER!   Then I answer a question HONESTLY, and become "that guy".   By the way...I still absolutely stand by those positive attributes.

@IXFE never previously disclosed?  

Personally when i am looking, i am looking for issues people have had, and what caused them, not just posts about how star spangled awesome it is, i can get that from the sales guy!  Example, the sales guys will not disclose, PCM had a thermostat issue last year, that affected Axis, Nautique and Centurion.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by DarkSide

[wheelman]

2 hours ago, bamaboy said:

Coming from someone with trump as a president!

[85 Barefoot]

4 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

 

Personally when i am looking, i am looking for issues people have had, and what caused them, not just posts about how star spangled awesome it is, i can get that from the sales guy!  Example, the sales guys will not disclose, PCM had a thermostat issue last year, that affected Axis, Nautique and Centurion.

 

...as did 2015 ZF trannys

[IXFE]

11 minutes ago, 3sport said:

or perhaps just a guy that's willing to call a spade a spade, regardless of where he sees it or how popular it is...

or maybe just a troll.

ps. love the memes by the way - I don't get why they get BS so riled up...

You didn't call a spade anything.  All you did is prove that you don't read.  I responded to your implication about my boats.  You ignored and went back to your trolling.  Typical.  

[hunter77ah]

33 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

Personally when i am looking, i am looking for issues people have had, and what caused them, not just posts about how star spangled awesome it is, i can get that from the sales guy!  Example, the sales guys will not disclose, PCM had a thermostat issue last year, that affected Axis, Nautique and Centurion.

 

If it weren't for the crew, I wouldn't have gotten my 14 with a 409.  With all of the warnings about the MP LS3 and issues with the 15s, I would have had no idea!   Dealer didn't tell me nuthin!

 

[IXFE]

37 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

 

@IXFE never previously disclosed?  

 

 

I was referring to the gel voids (now in both boats??).  That was never revealed.  Or maybe I missed that.  

 

[3sport]

Just now, IXFE said:

You didn't call a spade anything.  All you did is prove that you don't read.  I responded to your implication about my boats.  You ignored and went back to your trolling.  Typical.  

as previously stated, I think your statement about 5 boats and never having any issues was disingenuous given the difference in usage to that of darkside.  I don't think that's the same as calling you a liar.  not even close.  its a term I'd use to describe my own mother if I thought she was knowingly not presenting all the relevant facts.  politicians are often disingenuous in promoting their views, but that doesn't necessarily make them liars.  after I called you disingenuous, you typed a lengthy post that included some additional facts that I wasn't aware of.  disingenuous no more - other than I question the sincerity of your angst that darkside had the nerve to derail poor Jennifer's thread (everyone derails around here, and it appears darkside wasn't even doing that, but rather responding to someone else's post).  also, unlike BS in the college thread, I'm not going to get into a post for post exchange where we talk over each other, each of us desperately trying to refute every word and accusation of the other.  happy to give you the last word.  if that makes me a troll, so be it.  my life doesn't revolve around this place.