2016 G23 vs. 2017 24MXZ

[wheelman]

Just now, IXFE said:

First... Malibu doesn't make an MKZ, but Lincoln does! 

Second... there's more to a hull redesign than just running surface. The 2014 was deeper and absolutely heavier than the 2013. Also, the surf gates themselves were enlarged and reshaped (i.e. optimized to work together). This was the first time Malibu had a chance to design a new boat in the Surf Gate era. It was the first of a long line of such redesigns (followed by 22 VLX, 25 LSV, 20 VTX, etc). Malibu never designed the original MXZ line with surfing in mind as it was conceived and introduced back in 2011. That's all I was referring to. 

Since you like to make corrections the 2014 "is deeper "not "was" because it still is. However deeper in regards to the freeboard above the water line which makes no difference to the displacement of water as the draft is still 27" and apparently the extra weight did not make the boat sit any deeper in the water or they just got the draft measurement wrong a long with the weight. 

[IXFE]

3 minutes ago, wheelman said:

Since you like to make corrections the 2014 "is deeper "not "was" because it still is. However deeper in regards to the freeboard above the water line which makes no difference to the displacement of water as the draft is still 27" and apparently the extra weight did not make the boat sit any deeper in the water or they just got the draft measurement wrong a long with the weight. 

I spoke of the 2014 in the past tense because that particular model is 3 years old now and the redesign itself occurred in the past. But that's cool, I deserve to be nit picked (even though my MKZ comment was clearly a joke). 

I'm not sure why you're even questioning me on this. Go back and read what I wrote...

"It wasn't until 2014 that Malibu introduced the newer, heavier, deeper 23 LSV that the designs started to change..."

Exactly what about that statement is wrong?  

 

[wheelman]

Just now, IXFE said:

I spoke of the 2014 in the past tense because that particular model is 3 years old now and the redesign itself occurred in the past. But that's cool, I deserve to be nit picked (even though my MKZ comment was clearly a joke). 

I'm not sure why you're even questioning me on this. Go back and read what I wrote...

"It wasn't until 2014 that Malibu introduced the newer, heavier, deeper 23 LSV that the designs started to change..."

Exactly what about that statement is wrong?  

 

Come on ixfe I knew  your comment was a joke as was mine, touché.  I know you have thicker skin than that. I just think that Malibu is falling a little behind the times especially in the  23lsv line and 22vlx line as a surf boat. Now maybe they are wanting to keep with the multi purpose boat in those lines , then my point is mute. When was the last time you parked your lsv beside a centurion, nautique? Supra, moomba, supreme, etc?  These new boats are dwarfing the malibus in heights. I know they have the m235 but they is a very small market share of their boats. Like the op said 95% of their time is surfing so why not look at all the best surf boats. I believe that is where the market is going more and more every year and if so that will have an impact on what will help drive the resale market and keep the prices up on the best surf boats out there. I was malibus biggest fan and when I had my centurion all I ever wanted was to be in a Malibu for their styling and fit and finish was so far a head of everyone else. Now the other guys have upped their games and have brought some better dimensions to their boats that will give Malibu a run for their money. 

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, wheelman said:

The centurion ram fills are now flawless. When they first came out they had an issue with the valves, not unlike any new product to the market. They have now been changed and retrofitted and anymore issues are unheard of over 1000 hours. I owned a 06 Enzo for 5 years and never once had it in the shop for a repair. Same boat still hasn't been in the shop for a repair with the current owner. Have multiple centurions on my lake and they also have been flawless. As for resale to say you know @IXFE is a load of bull because I know directly of a 2016 that just sold for more than I can buy a 2017 for. Also where are you guys getting your prices from that a ri is same money than a G? That's just ridiculous. Don't know who has been quoting you guys on ri's but they are less money that a Malibu 23lsv. Darkside was just giving another example of a great boat to throw into the mix for the op to consider. The Malibu kool aid is very strong today my friends. Ixfe must be in negotiations for his new Malibu and that post just got him another 5% off!  

Most of what I know about Ri pricing I know from @DarkSide himself. Even his post in this thread confirms Ri237 is vastly more expensive than 23 LSV. I've also discussed Ri pricing with others in the market and Fineline directly. 

As far as me and my situation... I've had my 2017 pricing locked since last summer (the day the price guide came out). I don't owe squat to anybody. I post it how I see it.  I've been plenty critical of Malibu over the years, you just choose not to notice. If I was in the tank for Malibu I'd have told the OP to pick the 24 MXZ. Did I do that?  Nope. To be honest, I'd probably pick the G23, but it would be a tough call (I demo'd both the same week, have you?) I'm certainly not the first on this forum to question Centurion resale. And I have my own regional data points to back it up. You think I'm a Malibu snob?  Bulls***. I know more people at Fineline than I do at Malibu. And trust me... even they know they have a resale problem.  

That said, resale is not a big factor to many people. Obviously it is for me. 

[IXFE]

31 minutes ago, wheelman said:

Come on ixfe I knew  your comment was a joke as was mine, touché.  I know you have thicker skin than that. I just think that Malibu is falling a little behind the times especially in the  23lsv line and 22vlx line as a surf boat. Now maybe they are wanting to keep with the multi purpose boat in those lines , then my point is mute. When was the last time you parked your lsv beside a centurion, nautique? Supra, moomba, supreme, etc?  These new boats are dwarfing the malibus in heights. I know they have the m235 but they is a very small market share of their boats. Like the op said 95% of their time is surfing so why not look at all the best surf boats. I believe that is where the market is going more and more every year and if so that will have an impact on what will help drive the resale market and keep the prices up on the best surf boats out there. I was malibus biggest fan and when I had my centurion all I ever wanted was to be in a Malibu for their styling and fit and finish was so far a head of everyone else. Now the other guys have upped their games and have brought some better dimensions to their boats that will give Malibu a run for their money. 

Sorry on the jokes... without a  of some kind I read into it that you were offended when I was just trying to have some fun. My bad.  

I'm sorta with you on the 23 LSV and 22 VLX... what I mean by that is they seem to aiming those boats at the multipurpose crowd while the new MXZ seems to be marketed and priced like a high end surf boat (the regular side waves are much improved on these boats). It also occurs to me that the current LSV is Malibu's oldest design. And the 22 VLX (while a year newer) is basically the same boat only 14" shorter. When they redesigned the LSV for 2014 there was no such thing as a Centurion Ri237. The old gen G23 wasn't much of a surf boat. Not all boats even had surf systems yet. Making the 23 that tall and chunky was a fairly bold move for Malibu. And it payed off... it's the #1 selling boat in the industry and the 22 VLX is #3 seller in their lineup. But that was almost four years ago and the competition since then has done amazing things! I simply think we're comparing an older LSV design to newer Ri and G designs, which is natural. I also think Malibu is always going to be more conservative with the LSV and VLX because they have to appeal to a broader audience (i.e. investors expect them to sell more of these models as the "bread and butter"). That said I suspect we will see a new 23 LSV this coming summer (model year 2018). I have zero inside knowledge to suggest this, but Malibu has publicly committed to FOUR new boats a year. I don't see how they do that in model year 2018 without a new LSV.  I'm anxious to see what they do with it.   

So yes, all those brands have gotten bigger. But so has Malibu. They weren't the biggest before and they aren't the biggest now. But they are getting bigger. Every redesign they've done has been bigger than the last. Shoot... the new 24 MXZ is huge!  Likewise, I bet the next 23 LSV will be bigger than the current  

As for the inclusion of Centurion at all, I was simply following tried and true forum etiquette... stick to what the OP asked about.  I have no issue with Centurion; we have pages of content on these boats that I never objected to.  In fact I contributed my own glowing review! I've posted pics of me surfing behind the Ri217 and Ri237!  Did you know that?  Probably not. Nobody ever notices when I praise other brands, only when I talk up Malibu... then suddenly I'm an insider. Lol. 

Lemme ask you this... Ever been to Wakeworld?  Op asks about two boats they are interested in and gets 5 people chiming in telling them to buy the 5 different boats that they own. Chaos ensues... It's annoying AF. If Darkside is going to be that guy here in TMC then count me out. It ruined WW and it will ruin TMC. Why can't we just respond to the boats she asked about?  That was my only point. Bringing it up was clearly a mistake as we've completely derailed @Jennifer thread, if she's even following anymore. 

The other boats are certainly giving Malibu a run for their money. That's the nature of competition, and we all win as a result (well, except for the pricing). But what has really changed since 10 years ago when you were dreaming of a Bu? You said yourself you dreamed of them because of the looks. Did Bu have the best wake back then?  Nope. Most would tell you it was the SAN 210 or the XStar. But the Malibu was then (and still is, imho) the best total package (looks, interior comfort, wake, price, resale, dealer network, etc.). 

Okay, enough from me. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by IXFE

[DarkSide]

I will add one more point to the resale problem.  i believe it is more in the upper levels than the mid tier boats.

Exibit A http://www.onlyinboards.com/2016-Malibu-M235-the-best-boat--for-sale-Cleveland-Tennessee-61979.aspx

The 23LSV does better than most, but as boats get more and more expensive the most expensive models take a larger hit as there is much less demand for a $120k+ used wakeboat.  Do you buy a used 25LSV or a NEW 23LSV?   

I have a friend locally that has owned 6 supreme/centurion since 2012.  He buys them puts +/- 100 hours on then upgrades.  He has only lost money twice.  However he also gets better pricing than most BECAUSE he has bought  6 new boats since 2012.   That said he will take a loss on his last boat 2016 RI237, not coincidentally the most expensive boat Centurion produced last year.

A huge portion of the loss is determined at the purchase!  This is because some dealers are happy making a smaller margin frequently, and other dealers have set margins...take it or leave it.  

Edited December 1, 2016 by DarkSide

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, DarkSide said:

I will add one more point to the resale problem.  i believe it is more in the upper levels than the mid tier boats.

Exibit A http://www.onlyinboards.com/2016-Malibu-M235-the-best-boat--for-sale-Cleveland-Tennessee-61979.aspx

The 23LSV does better than most, but as boats get more and more expensive the most expensive models take a larger hit as there is much less demand for a $120k+ used wakeboat.  Do you buy a used 25LSV or a NEW 23LSV?   

I have a friend locally that has owned 6 supreme/centurion since 2012.  He buys them puts +/- 100 hours on then upgrades.  He has only lost money twice.  However he also gets better pricing than most BECAUSE he has bought  6 new boats since 2012.   That said he will take a loss on his last boat 2016 RI237, not coincidentally the most expensive boat Centurion produced last year.

A huge portion of the loss is determined at the purchase!  This is because some dealers are happy making a smaller margin frequently, and other dealers have set margins...take it or leave it.  

I agree to an extent. Certainly the more expensive a boat gets the tougher the quick resale will be because generally speaking people who want high end boats are more likely to be able to just buy new. But it's not that simple (nothing ever is).  

Case in point... there are plenty of people flipping G23's successfully, so that boat seems to be an exception. 

Despite your experience, I believe you can flip 24 MXZ's... @thtrog did it. You just put too many upgrades into yours. It's like owning the biggest house in a neighborhood then over improving it... that guy always gets the shaft  

What about a 25 LSV... can that boat be flipped? I may do the unthinkable and try it this year 

[bamaboy]

Interesting dialogue here fellas. Good discussion but I'm wondering what @Jennifer decided to buy?

Fwiw to the OP, I have zero brand loyalty in trucks and boats and have owned the "big three" over the past three years.  Guess which one had the most issues from the factory?  The G 23.  The least?  The mastercraft. It's not about the issues.  They're all gonna have issues.  It's how the factory and dealer take care of you.  

 

And to @wheelman, I think your comment to @IXFE about being some sort of internet Malibu whore is a bit out of line.  You will not meet a guy with more integrity than him and to suggest that he makes pro Malibu comments to get a discount is bush league at best.  The guy gets good pricing because he is honest and smart.  No other reason.

Edited December 1, 2016 by bamaboy

[TenTwentyOne]

7 hours ago, DarkSide said:

YES!  It's funny because Wake boat owners are worse than truck owners when it comes to brand loyalty!    It doesn't matter which brand, owners are VERY brand loyal.  Very few hop from brand to brand.

 

Just me and Bamaboy. We bounce around every which way, without caring. I even do part time work at a dealer for a competing brand 

I have the same experience with initial quality. My MCs were the best. My Gs had a couple nit pick issues on each, but nothing big. My Bu was bad, but really only in one aspect..... The electronics. That said, it was a 2010 and it was different times.......every brand had frequent random issues with screens, and electronics. 

The only gel void issue I have ever had, was on my 2016 G23. There was a huge void in the deck assy, under the port side coffin seat.

 

Honestly, I think it's a waste of breath to compare design, quality, or resale on any of these new wakeboats. They are all ridiculously good. That said, I am not completely ignorant to market. 95% of this market is not selling to wake/wave purists, and the more recognizable brands do sell better. Centurion makes a great boat, but I would hate to try and flip one every year with a 100k+ price tag. I gotta agree with the view of @IXFE in that regard.

@DarkSide references a situation almost exactly like mine. And he is absolutely correct in stating that the ability to flip, is directly relative to the individual deal when the boat is purchased new. It also seems, in that case, his local friend has good luck reselling. I can't dispute that, but I certainly wouldn't want to try it in my area with a Centurion, Tige, Sanger, Axis, Supreme, etc...... IMO, and experience, if you are going to flip a boat in 1-3 year intervals....... Sticking to the wakeboat household names will net you the best results on resale.

[85 Barefoot]

10 hours ago, wheelman said:

The centurion ram fills are now flawless. When they first came out they had an issue with the valves, not unlike any new product to the market. They have now been changed and retrofitted and anymore issues are unheard of over 1000 hours. I owned a 06 Enzo for 5 years and never once had it in the shop for a repair. Same boat still hasn't been in the shop for a repair with the current owner. Have multiple centurions on my lake and they also have been flawless. As for resale to say you know @IXFE is a load of bull because I know directly of a 2016 that just sold for more than I can buy a 2017 for. Also where are you guys getting your prices from that a ri is same money than a G? That's just ridiculous. Don't know who has been quoting you guys on ri's but they are less money that a Malibu 23lsv. Darkside was just giving another example of a great boat to throw into the mix for the op to consider. The Malibu kool aid is very strong today my friends. Ixfe must be in negotiations for his new Malibu and that post just got him another 5% off!  

Both of the underlined are very incorrect.  Neither is close to being the case in my area and Dark already posted his Ri quotes are 25k more than a 23LSV.  

 

That said, an 06 anything isn't comparable to the challenges and technology these boats are now faced with.  Were you throwing 5000#s in your 06?  Of course not.  It was probably a 350 mercruiser with no electronics.  Couldn't be more apples and oranges.

 

Look if Dark has a great experience with his new boat, that's great.  But this is the first I've seen anyone throwing Malibu quality under the bus and moving to a fineline product using quality as the justification.  That is not a knock on fineline.  Just first I've heard quality as the reason for the move.

[DarkSide]

I think anything can be flipped if you get good pricing on the front end.   I agree throg did flip one,  however he has also said he is/was in the Malibu promo pricing.  So that is a different situation than the average buyer is in.  Same with my friend locally,  he gets better pricing than i do,  thus enabling the flip.   I did alao note he is losing on the Ri....

To be able to flip successfully you need a dealer who will work with you and is in it for the long game.  Making 9% 3 times is better than 18% once.  Not every dealer is willing to do this though. 

I also get that a dealer can't do this for everyone, but its also good for the dealer as well.  So when a dealer like AWS gets a customer like @IXFE they also benefit.  They get a good customer who is a brand promoter, (NOT A Fanoy).  So in the end everybody wins

[DarkSide]

8 hours ago, IXFE said:

. If Darkside is going to be that guy here in TMC then count me out. It ruined WW and it will ruin TMC. 

REALLY??? 

PLEASE go back and read the first 10 posts to this thread!   MY response was purely on topic.  In fact it was NWBU and isellacuras that brought up Centurion NOT ME!  

Then to go on a rant because i specifically respond to a direct question to me... 

In fairness i did contribute after Pandora's box was open but i was absolutly not the one who opened it!  

- That Guy

Edited December 1, 2016 by DarkSide

[malibu.c.c]

Centurion, Nautique both run  pcm's  and have  300 hours warranty !! Indmar monsoon unlimited  hours...

so I will take the 5 years and unlimited hour warranty anytime 

 

[Anderson24]

This thread has made my morning so much more enjoyable. Thanks @IXFE, @DarkSide, and others who have contributed to my morning entertainment. This forum deserves a lively thread every once in a while. 

[teamerickson]

The wintertime crazies has set in early this year!

[minnmarker]

I'm confused

Would @IXFE, @DarkSide, and @wheelman please summarize their positions in easy to understand bullet points?  It might not be as much fun to follow but they've done some research and it'll certainly help the OP or anyone else looking to drop some serious change on a new surf boat.

Now if October would ever end here in the Midwest we could start Winter activities and stop reading truck posts!

[wheelman]

@IXFE I and very aware of all your posts and have enjoyed many of them and learned from some. Used your bow bag install for my 23lsv, thanks for that. That was why I posted what and how I did because I know you from your posts but obviously you do not know me, understandable, I do not post nearly as frequently as you. I was very involved in the centurion ri threads and have posted many times that I intend to make the switch   . As for derailing the op's thread I think suggesting a couple other options is far from that and to compare to wakeworld is quite the stretch.

@bamaboy my reference to ixfe promoting Malibu for his yearly great deal on a boat was nothing more than a joke that has been said on this forum many times in many threads, I thought any long term members would pick up on that. 

@85 Barefoot I can only talk about the dozen or so centurions that I know of on my lake with guys that put 200+ hours on a year with no major problems. In regards to price I will leave that one alone and just feel very good about the what I am paying for mine. Like everyone is agreeing on it's not so much what you resell it for as to what you buy it for so I'm sure I will be just fine. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by wheelman

[Bawshogg]

Wow, lots to take in here.

A few notes I can add as I am currently shopping RI's and Malibus...sorry to further derail.....

I love almost everything about the 257. Wave is immaculate, great looking boat, tons of space, nice features..IE:Ramfill, exhaust diffuser, in-floor cooler, ect. , and a great team of people working behind it.

I whole heartedly agree with IXFE through my research though. Pricing and economics are BROKED on this boat in our area. I'm not a first time buyer and been in this game for way to long to NOT understand the economics of this deal. Knowing myself and being honest, I know I am a 3-5 years on a boat kinda guy. It's my hobby, what I REALLY work for. That being said, I also have a family to support and priorities are priorities. Malibu HAS the brand recognition , Malibu has the RESALE values and has a damn good product for the MAJORITY of prospective boat buyers.  Knowing what I know, its hard for me to justify such a large gap in pricing between the RI and the Malibu (25LSV) ...especially when I think about the possibility of getting out of said boat in few years. Its one thing to pay LESS upfront knowing your gonna get less on the back end, its WHOLE different game to pay MORE potentially getting LESS on the flip side.(Think trucks for minute. You know if you buy a Ram the initial investment is typically less than a comparable Ford or GMC. You also know when it comes time to sell that truck you are also going to get less return than you would, have had you paid more for the Ford in a typical scenario).  We have NEVER had a good Centurion presence in the PNW. That's something that takes TIME to build.  Bottom line is ALL these boats are a depreciating asset ..which I am fully aware of and OK with. The idea is to get your use out of said asset for the least amount as possible....or at least in my mind that's I how I justify it. Fortunately.....or.... Unfortunately , depending on how you look at it, I have a family ,and a decision this large involves others. The purchase has to make sense for the "comity" regardless how BAD a** the wave is.

As far as pricing goes in our region, the Malibu has a higher MSRP# when optioned similarly to a 257. Actually the Malibu has the MSRP..ie: (suckers price) beat by a mile... About 25k higher......The difference comes down to the REAL price... SEEMS as if Malibu has ALOT more margin to be able to bargain with or AWS really strives to make stuff happen.

[DarkSide]

@Bawshogg VERY well said.  

Here 257 and 25LSV are virtually the same price.  We also have a well established base for almost every brand.  Malibu/Axis is still the leader, by a lot, second would be Nautique, i would say is comfortably #2, third would be either Centurion or MB.  You see quite a few of both.  

Like you said it takes time, Malibu guys have been here 20+ years, sure Boulder is newish but the guys working there aren't .   AWS same thing they have been Nautique/MB for a long time.   Our centurion dealer is the same way,  a smaller family owned shop thats been a dealer for 30 years,  so they all have the base.   Plus all are really good dealerships.   So every market is a bit different. 

Edited December 1, 2016 by DarkSide

[Bawshogg]

24 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

@Bawshogg VERY well said.  

Here 257 and 25LSV are virtually the same price.  We also have a well established base for almost every brand.  Malibu/Axis is still the leader, by a lot, second would be Nautique, i would say is comfortably #2, third would be either Centurion or MB.  You see quite a few of both.  

Like you said it takes time, Malibu guys have been here 20+ years, sure Boulder is newish but the guys working there aren't .   AWS same thing they have been Nautique/MB for a long time.   Our centurion dealer is the same way,  a smaller family owned shop thats been a dealer for 30 years,  so they all have the base.   Plus all are really good dealerships.   So every market is a bit different. 

In all actuality, AWS has not had MB for quite a few years now.  Malibu or Nautique not very long either...They acquired Malibu for the second trip in 2009 and Nautique in 2013 I believe. What they have done well for MANY years is sell and service WHATEVER brand they have carried. They have been the ONE constant in the Portland market area for as long as I can remember.  The product as remained ever changing there... but they still continue taking care of their customers how ever needed. You really cant establish how much a GOOD dealer can make a difference in your purchase.

 

I believe they even sold Centurion several years ago.... when I was little.

[DarkSide]

19 minutes ago, Bawshogg said:

In all actuality, AWS has not had MB for quite a few years now.  Malibu or Nautique not very long either...They acquired Malibu for the second trip in 2009 and Nautique in 2013 I believe. What they have done well for MANY years is sell and service WHATEVER brand they have carried. They have been the ONE constant in the Portland market area for as long as I can remember.  The product as remained ever changing there... but they still continue taking care of their customers how ever needed. You really cant establish how much a GOOD dealer can make a difference in your purchase.

 

I believe they even sold Centurion several years ago.... when I was little.

Sorry for the confusion AWS in AZ!

[wheelman]

@Bawshogg while I completely agree with you on all your points on the ri and am like you trying to minimize the economic risks,  I do not believe the ri is proven yet on what resale will be like. Yes the centurions of the past did not hold their value anywhere near like a Malibu did and may never will. However the new ri I believe to be in a whole new class and with cc behind them I believe things will change in the years to come, also with the growth of wake surfing that hopefully will propel the designated surf boats in the used market.

Now even if they do end up depreciating faster and greater I have factored that into my decision to have imho the best surf wave possible and the other factors that have made me change. The enjoyment and memories with family and friends greatly out weigh any monetary loss that I will take. If I tried to justify every monetary decision I had to make I would always be ordering a burger and fries instead of a nice juicy steak and great bottle of wine or taking my kids to the local amusement park instead of Disney land. I guess what I am trying to say is as long as you can keep a roof over your family's heads and food on the table don't forget to live for today. 

[TenTwentyOne]

3 hours ago, malibu.c.c said:

Centurion, Nautique both run  pcm's  and have  300 hours warranty !! Indmar monsoon unlimited  hours...

so I will take the 5 years and unlimited hour warranty anytime 

 

PCM warranty is 5/500, starting a couple years ago.....

[Bawshogg]

@wheelman,

 

I agree the wave is probably the best system wave available at this point. And I hear your logic....But the price difference here is not a FEW US dollars. Think larger. Like a year or two at a University for one of my boys.  I cant have THAT much more fun on the RI...even though I would love to .

 

Who's your dealer? Extreme or Wizzard?

[wheelman]

38 minutes ago, Bawshogg said:

@wheelman,

 

I agree the wave is probably the best system wave available at this point. And I hear your logic....But the price difference here is not a FEW US dollars. Think larger. Like a year or two at a University for one of my boys.  I cant have THAT much more fun on the RI...even though I would love to .

 

Who's your dealer? Extreme or Wizzard?

Wizard is my dealer. This is just one of the many reasons that I am making the switch. They are no longer a malibu dealer and if they do half the job selling centurions as they did Malibu we will be seeing a lot of them up here.