Malibu to marinize own GM engines

[ski40mph]

I think it's a horrible idea. I like the idea of a big group of certified repair places. And I like a track record of good products. Malibu has never marinized an engine, why would they be good at it now. They'll prob have a touchscreen built into it: fail.

[bcoppess23]

9 hours ago, TallRedRider said:

What will they call the new engines?  

I think this is really interesting.  Sort of following in MC's footsteps with Ilmor.  Now nobody can say that their budget boat has the same engine as a Malibu.  

 

 

Malibu owns the name Monsoon and this is the reason why they didn't adopt the Roush naming/badging.  I can see them also not wanting to adopt that naming as Supra has it branded all over some of their boats.  They needed to separate themselves as much as possible.

I can see them keeping this name going forward.

[85 Barefoot]

40 minutes ago, Ndawg12 said:

"Compelling Financial Benefits: The Company is targeting an approximate three-year payback on its investment."

This statement could be spun several different ways but it certainly doesn't suggest we're going to see reduced inflation on boat prices.  I'd like to see IXFE run some numbers and explain how this is even remotely possible without jacking prices through the roof.

That's just meaning that the savings from not buying from a supplier will equate the capital investment.  So, at $6M/yr / 3500 boats = is $1,700 per boat.  I would certainly think Indmar makes a $1,700 profit from each unit.  Hence, keeping pricing the exact same, MAlibu is just saying the money they "spent" on someone else's profit is now theirs and it will take just 3 years to "pay" for the investment.  After that, bonus $.

[DarkSide]

Indmar will be losing almost 1/2 of its production.   So Malibu should be able to aquire some talent from there.   I also don't believe marinizing an engine to be rocket science.   Like was suggested earlier a few bolt on differences.   radiator/altenator, oil cooler,  etc.

I am not surprised with 3 year payback.  This will likely be even shorter if people start upgrading again.   Where the grief will come is when the base engine is no longer adequate again.  

2015 23LSV a significant number upgraded to 409/450.  2016/7 410 standard and 450 not really viewed as upgrade.   So revenue was lost. ...

*the views and opinions stated above are pure speculation not based on fact

Edited November 15, 2016 by DarkSide

[DarkSide]

Now for the next question. ...

Will malibu become a supplier?  Making monsoon engines for others?  before you go to immediate NO  think Chaparral and surfgate!  Nautique owns PCM and sells to Axis....

Edited November 15, 2016 by DarkSide

[85 Barefoot]

10 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

Now for the next question. ...

Will malibu become a supplier?  Making monsoon engines for others?  before you go to immediate NO  think Chaparral and surfgate!  Nautique owns PCM and sells to Axis....

Would certainly be easy to do for the skiers choice group.  I understand the world is changing, but this kind of makes me sad in a way.  Indmar was synonymous with mastercraft and Malibu.  I know they just made some significant capital investments themselves.  The Ford product, to my knowledge, has been well-received by dealers and buyers.  Malibu is public and must do what it can to make money for its shareholders but jeez, no more Indmar?  Just seems weird.

[wedge88]

9 hours ago, TallRedRider said:

What will they call the new engines?  

 

 

In keeping with 2016 Malibu naming rights, I'm guessing 400VLX, 450VLX and 550VLX.  

[DarkSide]

The ford platform has 2 huge flaws.

1.  Base engine is too good!  

2.  upgrades are stupid expensive!  $7500 to go to 450 that isn't much more than a tune, and  $19,000 to go 575

By comparison on GM platform in axis

1. base 409 is ok most of the time but leaves desire for upgrade.

2. 450 is $4800 vs $7500 much more reasonable, again likely only a tune. ..

3. 555 LSA $10,500  almost 1/2 the cost of 575 ford.

Same thing with Nautique/Centurion 

H5 --> H6 is $7000 but you get a real upgrade. larger displacement 5.3L vs  6.2L  you get 100 HP and 60ft/lb of TQ, so you see where the money goes.   

I personally think its a great idea on Malibus part, 

[granddaddy55]

15 hours ago, DarkSide said:

Just my opinion, but this move makes much more sense than bringing trailers in house did.   i am not saying bringing trailers in house was a bad idea, i am saying that was good,  this is better.  

I bet dollars to donuts they are not dealing with the biggest trailer  problem the alignment of all fitment of underside openings vs bunk placement. 

And i csn tell  you that my painted galvanized from boatmate  is of perfect quality snd as long as I deep dunknthe boat no wear and tear on bunks.  The make ready fir galvanized  sanding and paint sanding it is very important to not create non protected corners or paint chips on corners from over prepping the paint layers or the galvanized coating. boatmate had been doing this for decades now, that's hand finished fenders and frame , is Malibu stealing people or do they intend not have galvanized painted? and since the main galvanized painted purchase is the salt water edition, will it be as good as boatmate it be offered anymore?

Edited November 15, 2016 by granddaddy55

[oldjeep]

2 hours ago, DarkSide said:

Now for the next question. ...

Will malibu become a supplier?  Making monsoon engines for others?  before you go to immediate NO  think Chaparral and surfgate!  Nautique owns PCM and sells to Axis....

And not just Chaparral, they licensed some of their surf patents to Tige as well

http://investors.malibuboats.com/investors/press-releases/press-release-details/2016/Malibu-Boats-Inc-Announces-License-With-Tige-Boats/default.aspx

 

Also worth noting, Axis uses Crusader not PCM.  Different sub company

Edited November 15, 2016 by oldjeep

[granddaddy55]

Just now, oldjeep said:

And not just Chaparral, they licensed some of their surf patents to Tige as well

http://investors.malibuboats.com/investors/press-releases/press-release-details/2016/Malibu-Boats-Inc-Announces-License-With-Tige-Boats/default.aspx

 

Also worth noting, Axis uses Crusader not PCM.  Different sub company

I think you nailed it, after cutting that check and doing the basic analysis they said with  only quick 3yr internal payback on it you know they were thinking beyond recovery of costs and integration at 18 million

[DarkSide]

Just now, granddaddy55 said:

I bet dollars to donuts they are not dealing with the biggest trailer  problem the alignment of all fitment of underside openings vs bunk placement. 

And i csn tell  you that my painted galvanized from boatmate  is of perfect quality snd as long as I deep dunknthe boat no wear and tear on bunks.  The make ready fir galvanized  sanding and paint sanding it is very important to not create non protected corners or paint chips on corners from over prepping the paint layers or the galvanized coating. boatmate had been doing this for decades now, that's hand finished fenders and frame , is Malibu stealing people or do they not have galvanized painted and since the main galvanized painted purchase is the salt water edition, will it be as good as boatmate?

My tandem Boatmate was a POS, of epic proportions!  I am very happy with the triple.  It is all in how they are ordered.  Ixfe has been very happy with Malibu trailer.  personally i did not see any flaws.   With the bigger boats the trailers were not ordered with the correct weight ratings.  So you were overweight all the time, my tandem actually wore rub spots on wheel wells due to wheels bowing inwards.  NO LEAD on board or anything like that just underrated trailer.

[granddaddy55]

5 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

My tandem Boatmate was a POS, of epic proportions!  I am very happy with the triple.  It is all in how they are ordered.  Ixfe has been very happy with Malibu trailer.  personally i did not see any flaws.   With the bigger boats the trailers were not ordered with the correct weight ratings.  So you were overweight all the time, my tandem actually wore rub spots on wheel wells due to wheels bowing inwards.  NO LEAD on board or anything like that just underrated trailer.

Ok yes I have small boat, but in brack water area the galvanized was a big issue for me, you wouldn't believe how my OCD keeps the trailer as pretty as the boat cause of the quality of black paint job on galvanized surface.  I really wonder where they get 20 years of galvanized finishing experience.  Supra goes unpainted boatmate galvanized, ugly but down here it would save me from cleaning trailer too, you should see a non galvanized trailer here after 2to 3 years of every weekend dunking

aftef 10 years the welded cross frame members will just break off the outer frame going over some big bump or pothole in the road

Edited November 15, 2016 by granddaddy55

[IXFE]

11 hours ago, Ronnie said:

I can see it as an increase of profits with drafting the right personnel. They should be able to buy the ECM's and farm that out but how much is really done to the motors after they leave Ford or GM to be marinized? How much is really manufactured by Indmar and how much is bolt on parts available in the marketplace? I'd bet most of it is.

The hardware is the easy part. The software mapping and integration with speed control is where this thing gets screwed up if they're not careful. I don't think it's as easy as just "outsourcing it." 

These were the type of issues with the Marine Power LS3. They need to get this critical piece right. If memory serves, Marine Power issue only affected aprox. 500 boats. If Malibu gets this wrong it will impact EVERY SINGLE BOAT they sell until they get it right. 

[Ronnie]

32 minutes ago, IXFE said:

The hardware is the easy part. The software mapping and integration with speed control is where this thing gets screwed up if they're not careful. I don't think it's as easy as just "outsourcing it." 

These were the type of issues with the Marine Power LS3. They need to get this critical piece right. If memory serves, Marine Power issue only affected aprox. 500 boats. If Malibu gets this wrong it will impact EVERY SINGLE BOAT they sell until they get it right. 

Actually, that's not rocket science either for someone that's experienced with it. Doubtful they'll have to start from scratch. 

[Slowride04]

It's about capturing a supplier's margin.  Not at all dependent on Malibu raising its price to the consumer.  I actually think it may give them an opportunity to slow the rate of price increases.  But now I guess Malibu will need to incur the costs and headaches to deal directly with EPA and CARB...sounds fun.

I doubt Malibu will sell these engines externally, if for no other reason than the press release making reference to giving Malibu uniqueness.  Will be interesting to see how this impacts Indmar's future.  I wonder why they'd even continue to operate at such tiny volumes w/o Malibu.

Edited November 16, 2016 by Slowride04

[shawndoggy]

4 hours ago, DarkSide said:

2. 450 is $4800 vs $7500 much more reasonable, again likely only a tune. ..

Not true.  the PCM 450 (6.0) has a pcm-specific hot cam in addition to the tune.  At least according to PCM.

[shawndoggy]

1 hour ago, IXFE said:

The hardware is the easy part. The software mapping and integration with speed control is where this thing gets screwed up if they're not careful. I don't think it's as easy as just "outsourcing it." 

These were the type of issues with the Marine Power LS3. They need to get this critical piece right. If memory serves, Marine Power issue only affected aprox. 500 boats. If Malibu gets this wrong it will impact EVERY SINGLE BOAT they sell until they get it right. 

Not to mention that Indmar is usually a customer service bright spot for malibu.

Looking at 85's hypothesized $1700 per power unit of "gravy," it'd be pretty easy to make a counterargument that it's ONLY $1,700.  How many visits to the dealer till that $1,700 gets lost in warranty claims and diminished good will?

Shoot, while they're at it, why not insource the electronics manufacturing too?

Edited November 15, 2016 by shawndoggy

[oldjeep]

13 minutes ago, Slowride04 said:

Like @chief outlined, it's about capturing a supplier's margin.  Not at all dependent on Malibu raising its price to the consumer.  I actually think it may give them an opportunity to slow the rate of price increases.  But now I guess Malibu will need to incur the costs and headaches to deal directly with EPA and CARB...sounds fun.

I doubt Malibu will sell these engines externally, if for no other reason than the press release making reference to giving Malibu uniqueness.  Will be interesting to see how this impacts Indmar's future.  I wonder why they'd even continue to operate at such tiny volumes w/o Malibu.

Indmar sell more than just tow boat engines, now I don't know how many but you see them in those big aluminum jet boats and apparently they sell to cruiser mfg too

Indmar Jet series and Cruiser series

http://www.indmar.com/mobile/experience/news/16-02-07/Indmar_Marine_Engines_Expands_Footprint.aspx

Edited November 15, 2016 by oldjeep

[IXFE]

1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Actually, that's not rocket science either for someone that's experienced with it. Doubtful they'll have to start from scratch. 

Totally agree... And yet Marine Power, and experienced marinizer, couldn't get it right  

[DarkSide]

11 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Not to mention that Indmar is usually a customer service bright spot for malibu.

Looking at 85's hypothesized $1700 per power unit of "gravy," it'd be pretty easy to make a counterargument that it's ONLY $1,700.  How many visits to the dealer till that $1,700 gets lost in warranty claims and diminished good will?

Shoot, while they're at it, why not insource the electronics manufacturing too?

They do not need an engine to run forever,  only through the warranty period.  Average user 50 hours a year,  shouldn't be an issue.  However, i would expect more oversight towards Abuse/Overweighting, currently that cost is passed to indmar so oversight has been minimal.    Technically most of us overweight our boat. 

If Malibu had to pick up the tab for new tranny,  i doubt they would have covered it.  They did not cover prop burn in my gel,  any guesses why???  

Edited November 15, 2016 by DarkSide

[Slowride04]

Just now, oldjeep said:

Indmar sell more than just tow boat engines, now I don't know how many but you see them in those big aluminum jet boats.

Suspect it's tiny.  Unless I'm missing something, Indmar will go from #1 in inboards to a distant #4.  Not saying they can't exist in that smaller form, but wouldn't want to be in their shoes right now.

[IXFE]

4 hours ago, DarkSide said:

The ford platform has 2 huge flaws.

1.  Base engine is too good!  

2.  upgrades are stupid expensive!  $7500 to go to 450 that isn't much more than a tune, and  $19,000 to go 575

By comparison on GM platform in axis

1. base 409 is ok most of the time but leaves desire for upgrade.

2. 450 is $4800 vs $7500 much more reasonable, again likely only a tune. ..

3. 555 LSA $10,500  almost 1/2 the cost of 575 ford.

Same thing with Nautique/Centurion 

H5 --> H6 is $7000 but you get a real upgrade. larger displacement 5.3L vs  6.2L  you get 100 HP and 60ft/lb of TQ, so you see where the money goes.   

I personally think its a great idea on Malibus part, 

In this post you're referencing both GM's old and new engine platforms. I wonder which Malibu will build from...

 

OLD: 

Base - 6.0L L96

Upgrade - 6.2L LS3

Supercharged - 6.2L LSA

 

NEW (Direct Injection): 

Base - 5.3L L83

Upgrade - 6.2L LT1 -or- L86

Supercharged - 6.2L LT4

 

My guess is they'll go with the new stuff if only because that's what Nautique is offering.  For the record, I don't necessarily think that's better  

 

 

[Slowride04]

22 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Not to mention that Indmar is usually a customer service bright spot for malibu.

Looking at 85's hypothesized $1700 per power unit of "gravy," it'd be pretty easy to make a counterargument that it's ONLY $1,700.  How many visits to the dealer till that $1,700 gets lost in warranty claims and diminished good will?

Shoot, while they're at it, why not insource the electronics manufacturing too?

That hypothetical $1,700 would be net of all warranty claims.  Malibu already pays for those, indirectly, in the price of the Indmar engine.

[DarkSide]

I think they will have to BECAUSE that is what nautique and MC are offering.   Otherwise,  Malibu would be using "old,  antiquated technology".  which is how MC and Nautique would present it.  

I haven't put enough time in to say DI is better/worse but does show promise from what i have read.  More power and more fuel efficient . ...winning combo

Edited November 15, 2016 by DarkSide