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Air Tahoe

Anyone have issues with Shurflo Piranha pumps? Photos

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Air Tahoe

This is the 2nd Piranha pump I've had to replace in the front ballast locker. This one lasted only 3 years. Rule pumps have lasted 10+ years mounted vertically. 

Piranhas have been mounted horizontally to drain the front sack. They tend to be submerged for a few days as that area collects water. Normally I don't open the bilge drain to flow water to the engine area. Didn't want oil debris flaring back towards nose of the boat. But maybe that would help? 

Annyhow I noticed a lot of greasy film in the water near the sack and it was on very thing in the locker. Then a month or two later a bad pump sound like bearings shot. Finally pulled the pump this week and the top cap of the piranha was compromised and everything a rusted mess inside. Do they have a grease packing is that why there is a film of grease/oil in the front locker now? Shouldn't that cap have been waterproof? You guys might want to check on your caps before it is too late and corroded inside. 

Funny thing is, I just replaced a 10yr old rule factory pump with a Piranah last week. Maybe I should have stayed with the Rule brand? They have lasted way longer!

B42D015F-EC13-432D-86D5-606C5C0BCDBF_zps

B479C173-9C76-4AC6-869C-575A88BF5F1C_zps

F575ACDA-02C1-4DE1-83E3-E45D02943F39_zps

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The Hulk

went through a few on my 2013:

the cap is NOT what i would call "water-proof" more like splash proof, being mounted on the side will allow water to get in at some point, also one thing over-looked is that its easy to make something waterproof but very difficult to make it air-proof. thus when air gets in and becomes hot/cold/hot/cold etc.. the cold air will condense into water but then the water is stuck and can NOT easily escape causing much faster rusting. in some cases making something equal atmosphere will result in less quick rusting... I had a few of these rust out and they were in areas that DID NOT get submerged if that says anything... they are in a moist area and the caps are TRYING to be waterproof but the wire inlet and the motor etc..are not air proof so the moisture that gets in never gets out...wire and capacitor get rusted quickly and how quick will depend on the Lake your on as well.. 

if you have some potting leveling silicone i suggest you fill pop the caps and fill the tops up so to make them more waterproof per say. oer use some of that Flex-Seal type spray to make it better than it is...will at least buy you 1.5-2x the lifespan. another option might be to get a sharp 90deg angle and mount the pump vertically. you may miss out on 1/2-1" level in the tank not getting out but it may be worth keeping the pump vertical.. if you replace the pump its jut going to happen again as your "wire rubber inlet" to the pump cap is under water and that part is NOT water proof its more of a splash guard and nice looking way for the wire to exit the side. 

i dream that someone will make a replacement motor that fits these that has a REAL motor that pulls maybe 15-20A @ 2-3x the RPMS and pumps 2-3X as fast... i look at some of the motors on these new RC airplanes and Helicopters and they are crazy powerful and fast! now if someone would just make it fit these pumps, throw them on a relay and we would all get 2-3X faster pump/drain times and be happy. 

 

also from what i recall i think the replacement pump or the pump/motor is the same on the 800/1100s the only difference is the 1100 has a larger intake and output size on the external housing itself. i could be wrong but i think thats what i found out as there was only 1-part number for the replacement motor.

Edited by The Hulk

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vanamp
1 hour ago, The Hulk said:

 

also from what i recall i think the replacement pump or the pump/motor is the same on the 800/1100s the only difference is the 1100 has a larger intake and output size on the external housing itself. i could be wrong but i think thats what i found out as there was only 1-part number for the replacement motor.

The intake on the 800 and 1100 are the same size 3/4" the outlet on the 1100 is 1 1/8" but the cartridge is the same for both.

I have had similar issues with my drain pumps that are mounted horizontally.   I have been buying 1100s and replacing the cartridge and saving the housings for when I upgrade my hoses to 1"  

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The Hulk

i also think that Malibu should put a water-proof connector for all ballast pumps as frequent as they need replaced it would be nice to connect & go.... you would think after how many years???? they would be doing this... .

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Ndawg12

I have 2 homemade toss-over-the-edge ballast pumps.  One is a Rule and the other is a cheap Attwood that I got at Walmart.  Both are still working perfectly after 5-6 years and have spent many hours fully submerged.  Glad I didn't use any of the Piranhas that I've pulled out for reversibles, that's a ridiculously bad design for something made to be mounted in a bilge.  I could maybe understand it if they actually had some suction power and didn't have to be mounted below the water line, maybe. 

 

 

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Air Tahoe
15 hours ago, The Hulk said:

went through a few on my 2013:

the cap is NOT what i would call "water-proof" more like splash proof, being mounted on the side will allow water to get in at some point, also one thing over-looked is that its easy to make something waterproof but very difficult to make it air-proof.

 

You could not have said it any better. This is exactly the issue with these pumps. They are not designed well and the cap pops off way to easily. They should be a screw on waterproof cap that has some beef to it and locking mechanism and filled with water proof grease incase the water was to intrude. They should also be labeled not for horizontal mounting. Although I don't have much of an option. I can try the 90 degree adapter but I think it will add cavitation and airlock to the pump. Which already happens to the pump at times. Although maybe that was because this pump had been rusting away for a year. 

Good idea with the silicon. I think I can devise a way to keep the silicone off the drive shaft area, then fill the entire cap and motor end so there is no room for air. I two brand new ones to install. Better then replacing these so often at $60 each and the time it effort it takes. Although now I am good at it. 

Yes, no reason they can't be using brushless motors with much more power and quicker draining. Don't need bigger diameter hoses and pumps taking up more area. Just add some pressure to the design by the way of a stronger motor. 

I destroyed the rule pump housing getting it off the brass adapter. It was practically melted on. Had to crack the plastic housing to get enough force to get it off. But good to know with the piranhas that I can save the housing and replace the pump section and get 1100 motors. 

 

I emailed Shurflo about these issues several days ago and never got a response from the customer service people. 

 

Edited by Air Tahoe

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Air Tahoe
3 hours ago, The Hulk said:

i also think that Malibu should put a water-proof connector for all ballast pumps as frequent as they need replaced it would be nice to connect & go.... you would think after how many years???? they would be doing this... .

 

Yes, that is what takes everytime. And have to shrink wrap the wires and use a heat source available at the lake. 

Edited by Air Tahoe

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kerpluxal
2 hours ago, The Hulk said:

i also think that Malibu should put a water-proof connector for all ballast pumps as frequent as they need replaced it would be nice to connect & go.... you would think after how many years???? they would be doing this... .

Mine has waterproof connectors.... they look like these: https://www.amazon.com/HiseNook-Waterproof-Electrical-Connector-Package/dp/B00MZVYB3O/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1477589523&sr=8-9&keywords=water+proof+electrical+connector

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Air Tahoe

This is what they look like new and you can see the simple non water proof cap that pops right off 

 

0E1962AE-F4AA-43AA-8F5D-956088002BD6_zps

 

Not sure why everyone is concerned with fill and drain speeds. It seems fast enough for us. As soon as the rider gives us the signal that they are done we already know who will be riding next. So we drop that tank and start filling the other. By the time we pick up the rider, switch boards, talk for a min. and get going the left or right tank is empty and the other large aftermarket tank is 3/4 full. It is full by the time they are up and riding. I think I measured our largest tank filling in 8 mins. and they drain quicker. The middle soft tank takes the longest where this pump will be installed. It doesn't come out the drain hole nearly as fast for some reason. But the center tank stays full until we are doing riding. 

Edited by Air Tahoe

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kerpluxal
48 minutes ago, Air Tahoe said:

This is what they look like new and you can see the simple non water proof cap that pops right off 

 

0E1962AE-F4AA-43AA-8F5D-956088002BD6_zps

Well, all of mine are mounted horizontally... I have not had any issues since 2010... I do see an Oring in there that should keep it water tight.. Knowing now that the cap "simply snaps off" I would fill inside with silicone... while being able to take apart makes it "serviceable" .. at their price point.. I would just replace, so filling with silicone would not be an issue....

As @The Hulk stated...that is what I would do... Don't know the intentions of the manufacture trying to make them serviceable... but in my case, I cannot upgrade to a different pump for filling without making modifications to the boat (bigger mushroom for intake)

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The Hulk
2 hours ago, Air Tahoe said:

 

You could not have said it any better. This is exactly the issue with these pumps. They are not designed well and the cap pops off way to easily. They should be a screw on waterproof cap that has some beef to it and locking mechanism and filled with water proof grease incase the water was to intrude. They should also be labeled not for horizontal mounting. Although I don't have much of an option. I can try the 90 degree adapter but I think it will add cavitation and airlock to the pump. Which already happens to the pump at times. Although maybe that was because this pump had been rusting away for a year. 

Good idea with the silicon. I think I can devise a way to keep the silicone off the drive shaft area, then fill the entire cap and motor end so there is no room for air. I two brand new ones to install. Better then replacing these so often at $60 each and the time it effort it takes. Although now I am good at it. 

Yes, no reason they can't be using brushless motors with much more power and quicker draining. Don't need bigger diameter hoses and pumps taking up more area. Just add some pressure to the design by the way of a stronger motor. 

I destroyed the rule pump housing getting it off the brass adapter. It was practically melted on. Had to crack the plastic housing to get enough force to get it off. But good to know with the piranhas that I can save the housing and replace the pump section and get 1100 motors. 

 

I emailed Shurflo about these issues several days ago and never got a response from the customer service people. 

 

ha think of all the "replacement money they are making" !!!

just use a small water-bottle cap and mount it over the back side shaft, use some hot glue around it to hold in place: next get a silicone glue and fill every bit of the top up from wall to wall and OVER the cap you put in.. the cap will keep from slowing down the shaft....then let it dry and it should last a LOT longer. Note if you can not find a "liquidy" silicone glue then make sure you dont have any voids when filling the top ie fill it and squish/swirl it around to remove any voids...but i think now at Home depot and places they have a "clear one" that is much thinner viscosity that is used for near invisible stuff like bath tubs/sinks etc.. i havent bought it in a while but anything will work better than it stands now. 

Edited by The Hulk

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The Hulk
46 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

Well, all of mine are mounted horizontally... I have not had any issues since 2010... I do see an Oring in there that should keep it water tight.. Knowing now that the cap "simply snaps off" I would fill inside with silicone... while being able to take apart makes it "serviceable" .. at their price point.. I would just replace, so filling with silicone would not be an issue....

As @The Hulk stated...that is what I would do... Don't know the intentions of the manufacture trying to make them serviceable... but in my case, I cannot upgrade to a different pump for filling without making modifications to the boat (bigger mushroom for intake)

i forget but if the o-ring is around the diameter it will work better, if its in the top of the cap it will NOT seal because there is now screws pulling it down to squeeze it tight... o-ring in the top "sandwich style" requires a LOT of force to make water tight. anyhow the design is terrible period... 

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MLA
6 hours ago, kerpluxal said:

I cannot upgrade to a different pump for filling without making modifications to the boat (bigger mushroom for intake)

What size is the pump's inlet? 

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Air Tahoe
10 hours ago, The Hulk said:

i forget but if the o-ring is around the diameter it will work better, if its in the top of the cap it will NOT seal because there is now screws pulling it down to squeeze it tight... o-ring in the top "sandwich style" requires a LOT of force to make water tight. anyhow the design is terrible period... 

The O ring is not water proof. it more like dust and spray proof. There is no force to press on the O-ring. If a factory worker simply slid the cap on and did not cinch it tight and you didn't check this, then it would be bad news. I never knew to check the cap until now. 

 

Will see if this helps at all. Might add some more in the cap before I put it on. Can rationalize of that would be helpful or not. Maybe a bead around the outside of the cap once it is on:

2C323AC7-1EB4-4D55-ABE6-C2BD160FACAF_zps

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The Hulk

@Air Tahoe looks good! what did you end up using to cover the back side shaft?

looks like your good to go: one point i would check is the wire entry point on the outside of the black rubber part the wires come through and also where the black rubber meats the cream color plastic housing

if there are NO voids inside on your silicone job your good to go: but as extra measure you may want to seal up around those areas on the outside:

if your able to seal off the shaft with a bottle cap or whatever you could also use "epoxy" which is more self leveling "if you cant find self leveling silicone" which is generally expensive like $15-20/tube, epoxy would work as well but you would have to be extra cautious that it didnt touch the shaft because then it would seep in and slow or stop it...the silicone is better IMO because even if it touches the shaft somehow your still fine worst case it would just slow it down a tad....

regardless looks awesome i'm sure it will buy you a LOT more time, in fact now that you have done it i think i'm going to put this on my winter project list since its an easy one! thanks for sharing the pics!

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kerpluxal
14 hours ago, MLA said:

What size is the pump's inlet? 

inlet is .75 on the pirhana 1100s. everyone else is 1.125

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MLA
57 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

inlet is .75 on the pirhana 1100s. everyone else is 1.125

Rule 405FC 1100 has a .75" threaded inlet and a 1.125" barb outlet. Comes with a straight and 90" outlets that can be oriented to best fit the application. 

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Air Tahoe

I used RTV clear silicone sealant. Simple because I had a few tubes in the garage and I don't have a caulking gun for those big tubes at home depot. A version of this 

It was messy, so wear gloves and a self self living glue would have worked better but I was too lazy to get some and afraid it might make its way to the motor. hot glue to steady the motor shaft cover was very smart idea. 

I used a small plastic wire nut to cover the motor shaft like this

I'd leave the cap off for 24+ hrs to give it some air to dry, otherwise I imagine it would take days to actually dry.  and needs to be kept upright to dry for first 20 mins. 

Wires into case look pretty solid but will double check for openings. Nothing worse then sealing everything and having a small hole and your sealant holds it in even worse :)

Pump pulls 18watts or 1.54amps on a 12.12v battery (running it dry for a few secs. )

I am curious how the RULE pumps are constructed or any different. I just tore one out of the middle locker and replaced with a Piranha. I should have pulled that casing apart to check. It is somewhere in the garbage already though. The casing cracked pretty good and it was frozen on the brass coupler to the hull. I ruined it pretty good getting it off. 

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The Hulk
3 hours ago, kerpluxal said:

inlet is .75 on the pirhana 1100s. everyone else is 1.125

which makes me seriously question the 1100 rating.....just saying... 

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The Hulk
1 hour ago, Air Tahoe said:

I used RTV clear silicone sealant. Simple because I had a few tubes in the garage and I don't have a caulking gun for those big tubes at home depot. A version of this 

It was messy, so wear gloves and a self self living glue would have worked better but I was too lazy to get some and afraid it might make its way to the motor. hot glue to steady the motor shaft cover was very smart idea. 

I used a small plastic wire nut to cover the motor shaft like this

I'd leave the cap off for 24+ hrs to give it some air to dry, otherwise I imagine it would take days to actually dry.  and needs to be kept upright to dry for first 20 mins. 

Wires into case look pretty solid but will double check for openings. Nothing worse then sealing everything and having a small hole and your sealant holds it in even worse :)

Pump pulls 18watts or 1.54amps on a 12.12v battery (running it dry for a few secs. )

I am curious how the RULE pumps are constructed or any different. I just tore one out of the middle locker and replaced with a Piranha. I should have pulled that casing apart to check. It is somewhere in the garbage already though. The casing cracked pretty good and it was frozen on the brass coupler to the hull. I ruined it pretty good getting it off. 

wire nut love it!! 

Yea someone needs to make a TURBO cartridge replacement that pulls like 15 Amps!

You could always relay them up to 24v and see how long they would last! haha. I know for the Boat Lift Motors they are all coiled at 12v when operating them at 24v its in over-drive mode so its MORE than 2X as fast and more powerful because the motor is wound for 12v, granted your only running a boat lift for a few mins at a time so it wont burn up at 24v, but if you were to run it for 1hr or something then it would. I seriously wonder what you could get away with on these pump motors @ 24v... for example say a 10min fill time at 12v is cut down to 5mins at 24v.. if the motor can run for 10-15mins at 24v then perhaps you could get away with it for "x" timeframe which may be worth it... granted you couldnt forget to turn it off... sounds like 3-beer Test Project this winter. 

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MLA
1 hour ago, Air Tahoe said:

I am curious how the RULE pumps are constructed or any different.

The 405FC is nothing like the rule pictured above. The 405FC is a premium pump in comparison. I dont have one on hand at the moment or I would post pics. Its has a threaded outlet rather than the barbed outlet cast as part of the housing. The package includes both a straight and 90 outlet. They are oring sealed which allows then to swivel to the ideal orientation for the hose. 

In actual testing, the 1100 rule is faster than the 1200 gph rated Attwood T1200.

I would not be surprised if the pump was glued on rather than frozen. Seen it before.  

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kerpluxal
8 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

which makes me seriously question the 1100 rating.....just saying... 

Well... all I know is that is way faster than the 800's... and right now that is all that matter ;)

 

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Air Tahoe

I'd recommend going ahead and putting that cap back on while the silicone is still wet. I let it dry 24hrs.. It is half dry and there are spots where the cap is resisted by the flat layer of silicone making the cap hard to get back on. had I done it with it still wet, it would snap on easy. But I'm sure it will take several days if not a week to dry doing it this way. 24hrs later in open air and the thick part of the silicone is still wet a few layers down. Just fyi

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