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The Hulk

Ballast Upgrade Dual Fill & Drain Pump on Rear PNP

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The Hulk

ok so i looked around my 2016 25lsv and i think i've got a good plan to cut ballast filling and draining times in half.

currently the rears i have 700-750s...i cant get a straight answer on this but there somewhere in that range... the take FOREVER to FILL or at least it seems like it and forever to drain the rears.  at least 2-3X longer than the center and bow hard tanks.

i'm also considering going a bit bigger 900-1200 lbs in the rears if they fit... but that would be killer on time.

i'd like to get some feedback on this install. 

1. Add an additional through hull fill pump for both right/left rear lockers in the open area near gas tank marked in the photo:

2. add 2 anti siphons on the back wall next to the current ones.

3. Plumb these into the Bottom of the Ballast bags: (so then i'm filling from the hard tank + bottom of bags at same time) 

4. add additional Drain pump at the back of the bag: (so then im draining into hard tank as normal + draining from bottom of ballast bag)

       a.) both left and right side additional drain pumps would feed/go over to left side of boat with through hull/side exits: reason is there are already fewer drain/vent holes on that side of the boat so it would keep holes more even on each side of the boat so the righ side doesnt look like it is too "holy" 

5. Vent the bags up into the same vent as hard tanks (highest part in gunnel) but use a smaller vent line diameter that T's into the larger vent diameter of the hard tank which would hopefully stop the siphon affect with small line bleeding into the larger line?

       a.) since my bags are a few inches below the vent line i figure i should be ok: Although i do think that is why the G4 is taller so @darkside can run his vent line to the top of the tower... 

6. Obviously i'll need custom bags that have 2-ports on both front bottom and back bottom of bags, and a vent port on top of bag & i might put one on front top so its closer to run the vent line.. 

thoughts/feedback appreciated? 

anti-siphons.jpg

fillers.jpg

Edited by The Hulk

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The Hulk

let me know if thats good placement for pumps or if its better to get up under the engine, although the current ones are already hard enough to access so i cant imagine if they get way up under there and if you have to replace or clean one out it would be a difficult task.. 

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teamerickson

If you go with reversibles you only need one pump per bag and wouldn't need the anti siphon loop.

I could be wrong, but I think having a vent line on the bag should decrease fill times. There's enough pressure to spill it out the hard tank vent line when the bags are only about half full. I would think without that pressure they will fill faster. Try that first.

Edited by teamerickson

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The Hulk

But aren't revisables like half the GPH ? And have to be careful to turn em off quick when done? Was looking to tie them to other pumps wiring wise although that brings up another point if the wires can handle that many amps are the fuses can

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kerpluxal
37 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

But aren't revisables like half the GPH ? And have to be careful to turn em off quick when done? Was looking to tie them to other pumps wiring wise although that brings up another point if the wires can handle that many amps are the fuses can

that depends on how you look at it... not a hydro engineer.. but from my readings it is all about the head pressure... reversible pumps are not affected by head pressure while aerator pumps are and slows them down... filling your top bag while filling your hard tank will cause you issues also (bottom tank won't fill because of air lock (air can no longer vent out).. However I do not know how the new models plumbing is routed... I know on mine that air lock happens because of top bag filling before PNP bag.... as far as draining, that is how I have mine setup.. pump on back of bag to thru hull, bottom of front bag to hard tank (gravity drain) and pump on hard tank to thru hull.

The only time you have to worry about burning your pump impeller on reversible pumps is when draining and running it dry. some models have run dry protection on them that shuts the pump off when there is no more water flow... all stated I still prefer aerator style pumps

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The Hulk

My 2016 has a vent line off hard tank so trapping air between hard tank and bag is a non issue as well air would go up on either front or back hoses that connect hard tank to bags.

I figured two similar pumps would be easier but could be wrong

My main fear is I was planning to wire the two new pumps for filling and the two new pumps for draining in parallel to the existing pumps but I wonder if the wiring can handle it or the fuse? Anybody with any put on this?

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kerpluxal
Just now, The Hulk said:

My 2016 has a vent line off hard tank so trapping air between hard tank and bag is a non issue as well air would go up on either front or back hoses that connect hard tank to bags.

I figured two similar pumps would be easier but could be wrong

My main fear is I was planning to wire the two new pumps for filling and the two new pumps for draining in parallel to the existing pumps but I wonder if the wiring can handle it or the fuse? Anybody with any put on this?

wiring can handle it.... the fuse might be your problem but is a easy fix. Mine had a 5 amp fuse for the pumps.. I added the additional pump and wired it to the already pump so that it work with existing switch... I replaced the 5 amp fuse with a 10 amp.. have not had an issues with a ~1year of usage

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tjklein

I ran reversibles and I much preferred them to my aerator pumps.  I'm not sure if I'll add them to my MXZ.  It took 7min to fill the rears and 8min and change to drain them.  I'm not sure if it's worth the extra money and time to put in more pumps.  If I was running huge bags I might think about it.

 

No concerns with burning them out.  I ran the good impellers and occasionally left them on, but no damage done.  As others said if they stay on for a long time they auto shut off.

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DarkSide

Hulk, 

I did exactly what you are talking about. Using sureflo 2000 GPH live well pumps.  

1. Use a relay to power pump, use factory pump as trigger for relay.  So everything is seamless via maliview. 

2. Move hard tank vent to bag, so hard tank vents THROUGH the bag.  

3. Vent bag using existing vent.  

This forces the bag to drain as the only air that is available to hard tank is through the bag.  So draining is improved.  My fill time for 1250 custom and 250 hard tank is 4.5 minutes!  I don't care about drain time so I did not add supplemental drain pumps so drain is still 15 minutes. 

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Fman
25 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

Hulk, 

I did exactly what you are talking about. Using sureflo 2000 GPH live well pumps.  

1. Use a relay to power pump, use factory pump as trigger for relay.  So everything is seamless via maliview. 

2. Move hard tank vent to bag, so hard tank vents THROUGH the bag.  

3. Vent bag using existing vent.  

This forces the bag to drain as the only air that is available to hard tank is through the bag.  So draining is improved.  My fill time for 1250 custom and 250 hard tank is 4.5 minutes!  I don't care about drain time so I did not add supplemental drain pumps so drain is still 15 minutes. 

DS, Do you have a pic of your setup, sounds like a great way to go.  I'm still on the fence about going with stock PNP over Johnson reversible pumps.  I am going to be really disappointed if I have extended fill times with a 700 lb WM bag or issues draining them.  I really liked having the hard tanks seperated from the bags with the reversible pumps.  It is much less expensive to just order the PnP rather than plumb two Johnson pumps.

Would really like to see what your setup looks like.

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The Hulk
6 hours ago, DarkSide said:

Hulk, 

I did exactly what you are talking about. Using sureflo 2000 GPH live well pumps.  

1. Use a relay to power pump, use factory pump as trigger for relay.  So everything is seamless via maliview. 

2. Move hard tank vent to bag, so hard tank vents THROUGH the bag.  

3. Vent bag using existing vent.  

This forces the bag to drain as the only air that is available to hard tank is through the bag.  So draining is improved.  My fill time for 1250 custom and 250 hard tank is 4.5 minutes!  I don't care about drain time so I did not add supplemental drain pumps so drain is still 15 minutes. 

DS those 2000gph are 10A so too big to piggy back existing wires of other pumps. What size relay did u use like 20A pumps said to use 15A fuses so 20-30A relay should be fine? Any link to what relays. u used and where you mounted these? Assume you ran some heavier wires directly back from batteries?

It says 1-1/8" tubing for that flow. Is that the same size tube as my normal PNP? I thought the anti siphon's were only 1"? So u have what size through hull and hose anti siphon's?

Did u mount pumps same position i have in marked in pic?

2000gph. Might get my rears on par time wise with the rest of the tank times.. but I would want "NEED" draining as well.. we surf nearly right out from the cottage so when mama bear says it's time .. it's past time.. driving around with bow up for  10-15 mins to drain all the water doesn't go over well.. 

Curious why venting into bag helps vs both hard tank and bag having their own vent lines. That join up into a T at highest point in gunnel? Seems it would be same?  But then again additional drain pumps may be different as I woukd be pulling a lot if water out fast from bags with 2000goh pumps..

Edited by The Hulk

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DarkSide

I will get some pics this Friday.  (I don't store  boat at home)

1. Bags must fill from top or use 1 1/8 anti siphon.  If top filing problem solves itself.

2. Venting, my experience with Malibu PNP gravity drains is, pump drains tanks faster than gravity fills them.  By removing vent the gravity drains act as "straws" forcing the pump to empty bags first. 

3.  These 2000 GPH pumps are HUGE.  So adding in drain path presents challenges.  You could easily add a second 1100, and cut drain to 8ish minutes.  

4.  Yes 20A relays, direct to battery. I ran 1 power wire and Daisy chained to relays.  

5. 1" thru hull fittings, then 1 1/8 hose strait to bags.

Pumps are mounted next to V drive.

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The Hulk
12 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

I will get some pics this Friday.  (I don't store  boat at home)

1. Bags must fill from top or use 1 1/8 anti siphon.  If top filing problem solves itself.

2. Venting, my experience with Malibu PNP gravity drains is, pump drains tanks faster than gravity fills them.  By removing vent the gravity drains act as "straws" forcing the pump to empty bags first. 

3.  These 2000 GPH pumps are HUGE.  So adding in drain path presents challenges.  You could easily add a second 1100, and cut drain to 8ish minutes.  

4.  Yes 20A relays, direct to battery. I ran 1 power wire and Daisy chained to relays.  

5. 1" thru hull fittings, then 1 1/8 hose strait to bags.

Pumps are mounted next to V drive.

thanks i'll look fwd to the pics!

1. I could not find 1-1/8" anti siphons they all seem to be 1" on WM, which is strange because even the normal 1100gph pumps have 1-1/8" barb output so are people piping down at the siphon? "reducing flow" and then going back to 1-1/8" to the bag or are people just barbing down at the pump and using 1" line.. seems pointless to use 1-1/8" line if your going through 1" and the anti-siphon? or am i missing where i can buy a 1-1/8" anti-siphon?

2. Venting: i'll have to play around with this to see what works best as at a minimum i plan to add at least extra 1100s on the bottom of each rear bag (if i cant fit the 2000gph) ones. although i need to take the bottom floor panel off and check what kind of room i'm working with in there on my 25 after getting one of those 200gph pumps. 

3. Pump size has me scared if things will fit between the gas tanks now!

4. Relays are at battery and ran power to pumps? or ran power back to relays in the rear: seems easier to run power to the rear and then two shorter wires to each pump from somewhere in the rear but whatever works i guess...interested to see your pics for sure..

5. I'm currious what the flow rate is through 1" tube but dont see the specs as if i go through anti-siphon i'll technically be down to 1" there.. reduced flow... if the motors are that much larger/stronger i should still be much better than standard 1100s.. i figured filling from the bottom of bags would keep my lockers "cleaner" without the extra hoses on top and everything for storage but maybe its not worth the hassle or loss flow through a 1" anti-siphon.  

Edited by The Hulk

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kerpluxal
9 hours ago, DarkSide said:

Hulk, 

I did exactly what you are talking about. Using sureflo 2000 GPH live well pumps.  

1. Use a relay to power pump, use factory pump as trigger for relay.  So everything is seamless via maliview. 

2. Move hard tank vent to bag, so hard tank vents THROUGH the bag.  

3. Vent bag using existing vent.  

This forces the bag to drain as the only air that is available to hard tank is through the bag.  So draining is improved.  My fill time for 1250 custom and 250 hard tank is 4.5 minutes!  I don't care about drain time so I did not add supplemental drain pumps so drain is still 15 minutes. 

would love to see those pumps installed... that would definitely fill my hard tank and 1100 pnps twice as fast... Just an FYI.. I could not justify the cost of it and it don't think it would fit in engine compartment 3800 gph pumps is what is used in the M235 to fill the center tank (same ones as the Ronix pump). 

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DarkSide

These 3800 should be standard as part of PNP.  Use outlet into a 2 port manifold, 1 port to hard tank, I port to bag.  

The second benefit to larger pumps,  they don't lose fill speed due to head pressure near as fast. 

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kerpluxal
25 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

but they are using 1-1/2" pipe right? thats getting large... also i dont see that there is an option anywhere to buy a threaded bottom hook up for though hull on the Ronix 3700gph pumps? so that must be a custom thing for the M235 if they are using these?

found the link... this one :) http://store.waterpumpsupply.com/runo12vodcbi7.html ... and they dropped $100.00 off their retail price :)

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The Hulk
19 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

These 3800 should be standard as part of PNP.  Use outlet into a 2 port manifold, 1 port to hard tank, I port to bag.  

The second benefit to larger pumps,  they don't lose fill speed due to head pressure near as fast. 

Agree... nearly every boat owner complains about fill speeds: why the heck would this not be standard: i mean were talking a few hundred bucks difference from the factory... 

@kerpluxal thanks for the link, need to check physical size of these....tempting ! haha.. i see WM does have 1-1/8" through hull inlets, wonder if you did a 1-1/8" inlet and 1-1/8" outlet what the GPH would be anyone a fluid mechanic on here? or a 1-1/8" inlet with 1-1/2" outlet? as i see several of the pumps have smaller inlets than outlets... the question becomes is it still way better than the 200gph? 

If malibu is using them on their M-series are they using 1-1/8" inlets or are they using 1-1/2" inlet,  if they are 1-1/8" i suspect they may not be fully 3700gph rate?

i did find some 1-1/2" inlets but thats a BIG HUGE HOLE/s ! haha

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The Hulk
The Hulk

also found a nice 1-1/8" one as well http://www.westmarine.com/buy/forespar--marelon-vented-loops--P011_332_003_012 so may have to stick with the 2000gph pumps those 3700 are freaking HUGE!!! but i agree with @DarkSide you would ONLY need one to fill hard tank + bag on each side and one to drain and it would be equal to 3 normal fills and 3 normal drains cutting times to a few mins!

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The Hulk

i would also think if malibu is seriously doing a 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" inlets on the M that they would want to use something like this ? http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12113&familyName=Perko+Weed+Guards+for+Intake+Water+Strainers

or i guess you could do two smaller 1" or something Y into the pump? and perhaps that would be better for the exit as well so you dont have such huge holes in the side of your boat as well?

Edited by The Hulk

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kerpluxal
12 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

i would also think if malibu is seriously doing a 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" inlets on the M that they would want to use something like this ? http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12113&familyName=Perko+Weed+Guards+for+Intake+Water+Strainers

 

only problem with those is that they will cause auto filling of bags when boat is moving,,, if you place the strainer to the back, then you cant fill while under way

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The Hulk
2 minutes ago, kerpluxal said:

only problem with those is that they will cause auto filling of bags when boat is moving,,, if you place the strainer to the back, then you cant fill while under way

but with a normal hose and bow raised up isnt it kind of doing the same thing just not as efficient? woudlnt the anti-siphon fix that or would there be enough scoop/pressure to ram it up and around into the tanks?

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racer808

The previous owner of my boat added a 3rd reversible pump with with a Y fitting to each rear bag & a Y switch for control of which bag gets water so he could switch surf sides quicker, which adding GSA negated the need for it.  It worked incredibly well & cut down on fill / drain time to the tune of 4-5 minutes.  I say "worked" because I disconnected it all & used the pump for my bow sac.  

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The Hulk
On 10/4/2016 at 0:29 AM, DarkSide said:

Hulk, 

I did exactly what you are talking about. Using sureflo 2000 GPH live well pumps.  

1. Use a relay to power pump, use factory pump as trigger for relay.  So everything is seamless via maliview. 

2. Move hard tank vent to bag, so hard tank vents THROUGH the bag.  

3. Vent bag using existing vent.  

This forces the bag to drain as the only air that is available to hard tank is through the bag.  So draining is improved.  My fill time for 1250 custom and 250 hard tank is 4.5 minutes!  I don't care about drain time so I did not add supplemental drain pumps so drain is still 15 minutes. 

@DarkSide were you able to snap a few pics?

i just received one of the 2000gph livewell pumps to see how big it is...pretty big but i think its going to be very tight for 2 units in the place i have pictured so wondering how you have yours mounted. 

also plan to remove the back floor panel in rear of bag and i'm HOPING one of these beasts will fit there for drain directly off the bag. 

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