PSA- Please read! About your engine!

[ibelonginprison]

1 hour ago, 95echelon said:

I bet within 5 years we see a small diesel and a 19" prop. On a 25-26 footer. But probably from chaparral.

 

I've thought about that, and it's certainly possible because I know if I've thought of it, so have the manufacturers. Diesels are just sooooooooo expensive. A Cummins or International motor are tanks, but more tq than "horsepower." Low RPM, so what does that do for top end speed?  My 6.4 on a hot tune is faaaaaaast, and the compound twin turbos give me less boost lag than with the 7.3... but all the maintenance that goes with it is ridiculous, on top of the cost of the motor itself. They always fetch a premium.

HP Injector pump. A grand.

EGR stuff. A grand.

Radiator. A grand. 

Injectors. A grand.

About the only thing that doesn't start at a thousand dollars are the head studs. But since it costs $2500 to even get to them, that's a wash.

 

On top of that, it's like a fraction of a marinas that carry diesel fuel. 

You may see a small diesel in 5 years, like the Cummins 5.0 they put in the Titan XD. But it will be a push to get them as a common powerplant. 

 

That's my opinion, though. I'd love to see them on the water. 
Get your surfer up, then he complains about the wave? Roll coal on his whiny @**. lol 

Edited September 14, 2016 by ibelonginprison

[85 Barefoot]

1 hour ago, SoulSurfer said:

So, which is worse - running at 4000 rpm and above basically all the time with the engine pretty freely spinning, with top speed being clearly limited by the rev limiter (quite a bit of throttle left and the boat will do this from sea level to 6500 feet) or having WOT engine speed prop-limited at full weight?  Picking the right prop for these boats is not as simple as it is for most, since the total boat weight can fluctuate so dramatically.  If you're propped for pushing a total weight of 10,000 pounds plus to full WOT range, you are going to be substantially underpropped when the boat weighs 5 or 6,000.  It seems like the application these engines came from (pickup trucks) are an environment where the operators are much more likely to push hard on a higher gear (i.e. lower rpm/higher load) vs. rev the pi$$ out of them in a low gear all the time. 

My boat will hit the top of it's WOT range of 5400 rpm with 2800 pounds of ballast and about 1200 pounds of people on board and I know it will hit 5000 rpm with 4500 pounds of ballast and 1000 pounds of people on board.  However, it also runs at 4000 rpm to cruise at 26 mph unloaded and surf rpm is 4000 - 4200 at 11-11.2 mph.  I can't imagine driving a Ford pickup around at 4000+ rpm all the time and expecting that engine to last very long....but I may be completely off base!

Yep, but you should prop based on your maximum load.  RPMS be darned.  Lugging more destructive than "free" revolutions.

[DarkSide]

2 hours ago, 95echelon said:

I have a bit less than 100 hours of wakesurfing on my 340 monsoon, I run 2800 rpm with few people and 3200 with a bunch, also 4k ballast. With the low pitch prop it does extremely well. Time will tell how much my drivetrain takes that abuse, but I think that the main issue people have with surfing is not having the right prop.

Seriously not trying to jinx you,  but mine was rock solid no issues the first 130 hours.  We will see how she hold up going forward. I am hoping to be getting her back Friday 

[85 Barefoot]

47 minutes ago, ibelonginprison said:

 

I've thought about that, and it's certainly possible because I know if I've thought of it, so have the manufacturers. Diesels are just sooooooooo expensive. A Cummins or International motor are tanks, but more tq than "horsepower." Low RPM, so what does that do for top end speed?  My 6.4 on a hot tune is faaaaaaast, and the compound twin turbos give me less boost lag than with the 7.3... but all the maintenance that goes with it is ridiculous, on top of the cost of the motor itself. They always fetch a premium.

HP Injector pump. A grand.

EGR stuff. A grand.

Radiator. A grand. 

Injectors. A grand.

About the only thing that doesn't start at a thousand dollars are the head studs. But since it costs $2500 to even get to them, that's a wash.

 

On top of that, it's like a fraction of a marinas that carry diesel fuel. 

You may see a small diesel in 5 years, like the Cummins 5.0 they put in the Titan XD. But it will be a push to get them as a common powerplant. 

 

That's my opinion, though. I'd love to see them on the water. 
Get your surfer up, then he complains about the wave? Roll coal on his whiny @**. lol 

Diesels have been offerred multiple times by multiple OEM and aftermarket brands.  Regardless of all the big rig drivers who are apparently wake boat owners, it has proved to be less than ideal configuration.

[DarkSide]

8 minutes ago, 85 Barefoot said:

Diesels have been offerred multiple times by multiple OEM and aftermarket brands.  Regardless of all the big rig drivers who are apparently wake boat owners, it has proved to be less than ideal configuration.

But as stated earlier it's a whole new world.   Diesel IS popular in marine, just not recreational wake toys.  As these get even more ridiculous diesel becomes a better option.  Especially as we get closer to 15,000 pound wake barges... those are right around the corner.    

Seriously, how much displacement is a fully loaded. Sacked 25LSV, with 10 peeps on board.    There is bigger and heavier coming....

Edited September 14, 2016 by DarkSide

[85 Barefoot]

HP is not unimportant as is suggested by so many.  These boats need a lot of power to get moving, not just torque.  Torque is the ease with which it does it (work).  You can't drop in a 600 lb ft diesel and necessarily get as good of performance as is offerred by the gassers.  Those of you who are getting stalled at 4000rpm will have the same issue with a comparably powered diesel.  They will continue the trend of more reduction and bigger props.  Diesel is not a magic potion.

Do Y'all realize that pro surfers don't even ride as heavy as some of you?  I'm not convinced that these things are going to get all that much heavier.  Furthermore, there is a reason the OEMs cancelled diesel offerings and the aftermarkets fizzled.  

Edited September 14, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[Pnwrider]

1 hour ago, ibelonginprison said:

 

I've thought about that, and it's certainly possible because I know if I've thought of it, so have the manufacturers. Diesels are just sooooooooo expensive. A Cummins or International motor are tanks, but more tq than power. Low RPM, so what does that do for top end speed?  My 6.4 on a hot tune is faaaaaaast, and the compound twin turbos give me less boost lag than with the 7.3... but all the maintenance that goes with it is ridiculous, on top of the cost of the motor itself. They always fetch a premium.

HP Injector pump. A grand.

EGR stuff. A grand.

Radiator. A grand. 

That's my opinion, though. I'd love to see them on the water. 
Get your surfer up, then he complains about the wave? Roll coal on his whiny @**. lol 

Yea but none of those would apply to a diesel on the water. No particulate filters, egr, radiator, etc to deal with. I rarely fill up on the water so that's a non issue as well. I've been playing with the idea of taking a 25-30 ft aluminum fishing inboard (think trawler style), welding in huge ballast tanks, and surfing the crap out of it. 

[ibelonginprison]

22 minutes ago, Pnwrider said:

Yea but none of those would apply to a diesel on the water. No particulate filters, egr, radiator, etc to deal with. I rarely fill up on the water so that's a non issue as well. I've been playing with the idea of taking a 25-30 ft aluminum fishing inboard (think trawler style), welding in huge ballast tanks, and surfing the crap out of it. 

I wouldn't say "none" of them apply, most - you're probably correct. But - with all the EPA crap out there pushing on innovators it's hard to say what they would want a focus on with diesels on pleasure craft. They're putting cats on gas burners now. So maybe no DPF, but what about DEF? No EGR, but injector pumps, oil coolers, high pressure injectors etc. are all valid and if you think they're expensive for a Ford... think about what would happen when you slap a MasterCraft sticker on 'em. 

 

And yes, lots of diesels in larger craft. They've been prevalent for decades. But we're talking ocean going or long haul (read: Mississippi river or great lakes) type craft. I'll never see a diesel tug on any waterway in Alabama aside from the Gulf. I fill up almost exclusively on the water. I would venture that over half, and maybe even up to 2/3, of the boats on my lake are either kept on a lift on their dock or dry stacked. Those boats fill up on the water.

 

But I'm all on board for you bringing a 27' trawler with 18,000's of ballast to "you know what." I wanna jump that wake!

[95echelon]

28 minutes ago, ibelonginprison said:

I wouldn't say "none" of them apply, most - you're probably correct. But - with all the EPA crap out there pushing on innovators it's hard to say what they would want a focus on with diesels on pleasure craft. They're putting cats on gas burners now. So maybe no DPF, but what about DEF? No EGR, but injector pumps, oil coolers, high pressure injectors etc. are all valid and if you think they're expensive for a Ford... think about what would happen when you slap a MasterCraft sticker on 'em. 

 

And yes, lots of diesels in larger craft. They've been prevalent for decades. But we're talking ocean going or long haul (read: Mississippi river or great lakes) type craft. I'll never see a diesel tug on any waterway in Alabama aside from the Gulf. I fill up almost exclusively on the water. I would venture that over half, and maybe even up to 2/3, of the boats on my lake are either kept on a lift on their dock or dry stacked. Those boats fill up on the water.

 

But I'm all on board for you bringing a 27' trawler with 18,000's of ballast to "you know what." I wanna jump that wake!

I'm gonna need bigger suck gates. 

[ibelonginprison]

1 hour ago, ConnollyCrew said:

That is from Indmar. Your choice to believe or not. I am just sharing info I thought some might take value in. Nothing more, nothing less. 

And you're hella propped down. 

[bamaboy]

5 hours ago, 95echelon said:

I bet within 5 years we see a small diesel and a 19" prop. On a 25-26 footer. But probably from chaparral.

Pavati already has an 8.2 L Merc Diesel option.  

 

https://www.pavati.com/al-24/

 

Scroll to the bottom.  380 HP.  502 Ft lb torque

[bbattiste247]

My 2016 23 lsv with the 410 motor came from the factory with a 15x14.25 and can be optioned with a 15x15.25. While the 20 vtx, with the same motor, comes from the factory with a 15x17.75. That is a fairly large gap in pitch.

Does Malibu test these new motors and trannys to determine the best prop or do they just throw on the same props they have in the past?  It seems like they are using many of the same props. So if they put a 15x17.75 on a vtx with a 410 Raptor, it would be difficult for them to deny a case of the same prop on anther boat with the same motor. Just a thought.

I am sure other regions of the country boats are equipped with different props. What props are you getting with the 410 and 450 motors? 

  

[oldjeep]

23lsv is a tad bigger, heavier and a completely different hull than a vtx. With the same prop on both boats are you thinking they would both hit wot at anywhere near the same rpm?

[67King]

Biggest issue with extended periods of time at WOT at lower RPM is that the engine will be in a region where it is knock limited. The calibration will account for some of this, but it may not necessarily account for how hot the chamber will get.  And depending on how good the knock sensors are, it may or may not be helping.  If the knock sensors are wroking, you'll be retarding timing, which will mean making less torque (BTW......horsepower and torque are the same thing - HP = Torque*RPM/5252), and you'll also be putting more heat into the system (you're burning the same amount of fuel, it it isn't making power, it is making heat!!!), mostly through the exhuast.  That may have a long term impact on the cats where applicable.  You may also be detonating, which can over time destroy pistons.  Worst case is you detonate to the point where you create a hot spot in the chamber that leads to pre-ignition.  PI means you blow up.  But I don't hear about that being a big issue.

SOme of hte newer tehnologies help, depending.  The chamber of the new Ford is worlds better.  DI is also worlds better, so long at the CR isn't jacked up too much (I don't know what it is, off of memory, most of the bigger bore engines can handle about a 0.8 increase wihtout negatively affecting knock.

The water pump was mentioned.  Water pumps are often designed such that they'll cavitate at higher RPM, meaning they reach peak flow lower in the RPM range......so you may actually be flowing more water at, say, 4000 RPM than at 5500.  It all depends.  We (when I was at Ford) put different water pumps on trucks than on cars, even when they had the same engine (4.6's), given the different duty cycles.

[85 Barefoot]

12 hours ago, bbattiste247 said:

My 2016 23 lsv with the 410 motor came from the factory with a 15x14.25 and can be optioned with a 15x15.25. While the 20 vtx, with the same motor, comes from the factory with a 15x17.75. That is a fairly large gap in pitch.

Does Malibu test these new motors and trannys to determine the best prop or do they just throw on the same props they have in the past?  It seems like they are using many of the same props. So if they put a 15x17.75 on a vtx with a 410 Raptor, it would be difficult for them to deny a case of the same prop on anther boat with the same motor. Just a thought.

I am sure other regions of the country boats are equipped with different props. What props are you getting with the 410 and 450 motors? 

  

Actually both the LSV and VTX can be had OEM with the 14, 15, or 17.  They do test, but they also don't allow the entire ACME factory catalog to be ordered.  With the new 15" diameter props, roughly 10-15% steps up in pitch are good enough.

[nyryan2001]

I ignored this when it was first posted and I'll ignore again.

 

i don't run my boat at WOT for anything other than a rare brief sprint unloaded.  so this over rich fuel mix situation never applies.  Further, my boat runs cooler surfing 5000lbs at 11.8 (160degs)than it does at idle (170degs).

this is a whole lot of speculation about a situation that would apply to very few folks.

 

 

[85 Barefoot]

3 hours ago, nyryan2001 said:

I ignored this when it was first posted and I'll ignore again.

 

i don't run my boat at WOT for anything other than a rare brief sprint unloaded.  so this over rich fuel mix situation never applies.  Further, my boat runs cooler surfing 5000lbs at 11.8 (160degs)than it does at idle (170degs).

this is a whole lot of speculation about a situation that would apply to very few folks.

 

 

Over rich refers to the relationship of fuel charge for each combustion event to the engines ability to transfer the combustion event to rotation.  It does not require being at full throttle.  Think about a lawn mower that encounters some heavy grass and begins to choke down.  The fuel charge remained the same but the combustion was insufficient to maintain the rpm relative to the fuel charge.  The engine was overloaded and fuel rich.  Same thing is happening in wakeboats but to different degrees.

As for the temp reading, that has nothing to do with this.  Your temp reading comes from one spot on the engine, taking a sampling of the temperature of the cooling system.  It's the cylinder temperatures that are the concern which have nothing to do with the "engine temp".  For example, during each combustion event, cylinders are a heckuva lot hotter than your "engine temp".  Under extreme loads, while the engine is charging the cylinder with more fuel, it is not moving the air through the intake and water through cooling jackets that it otherwise would without the extreme load.  That's the concern with fuel-rich and overstrained scenarios.

Actually, this situation applies to everyone.  From ski boats to 25s.  It does vary to a degree but there is no question that an engine working at 90% of its power capacity will wear out faster than one working at 30%.  Even people who don't run a ton of weight but who prop up to get rpms down are doing this to their engine.  As a whole, wakeboats are extremely overloaded.  They are asked to go from a dead stop to full fuel charges at 1000 rpm to get thousands of pounds moving for wakeboarding, hits max work in many wakesurfing setups, and many (if not most) boats are overpropped.  To that end, that is why there is no replacement for displacement for longevity in extreme load applications.  Even though the tech existed to make relatively torquey 500 hp four cylinders, you would never see one in a heavy duty truck because it would work that engine's tail off regardless of the top end of its power band, whereas a large displacement engine, while wasting much of its volume much of the time, does not have to be stressed as hard to achieve the same work.

Edited September 15, 2016 by 85 Barefoot

[Technicallyabu]

15 hours ago, bamaboy said:

Pavati already has an 8.2 L Merc Diesel option.  

 

https://www.pavati.com/al-24/

 

Scroll to the bottom.  380 HP.  502 Ft lb torque

Ya I saw that too but Merc doesn't make an 8.2 L diesel afaik.  They do make a 4.2L with 370 hp and 800 ftlbs though.  Its also around $60k.  Or about what I paid for my entire boat.

[shawndoggy]

When you are Pavati you can make up whatever options you want for your nonexistent boats. 

(Srsly how many actual boats exist in the world? Fewer than 15 I'd bet, and I'd also bet none actually has a diesel in it)

3 hours ago, nyryan2001 said:

I ignored this when it was first posted and I'll ignore again.

 

i don't run my boat at WOT for anything other than a rare brief sprint unloaded.  so this over rich fuel mix situation never applies.  Further, my boat runs cooler surfing 5000lbs at 11.8 (160degs)than it does at idle (170degs).

this is a whole lot of speculation about a situation that would apply to very few folks.

 

 

Guys who marinize, program, and warranty engine tell you what to do and how to use it. 

NYRyan2001's take: whole lotta speculation. 

Seems reasonable

[oldjeep]

3 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

When you are Pavati you can make up whatever options you want for your nonexistent boats. 

 

Funny that picture they have of the 8.2 "diesel" is the Mercury racing 700HP Blown 8.2 gas engine

http://www.boattest.com/oem/337/engines/8000032/0/

[tjklein]

I don't think we'll see any turbo diesel options in the big brands for quite a while, if ever.  I think there are all sorts of issues to deal with from shear size, to operating rpm range, to emissions, to heat.

IMO...not happening.

Edited September 15, 2016 by tjklein

[Ronnie]

I'm hearing rumblings of Emissions Testing on boats before too many years from industry people. Not sure how they will test the exhaust if it's under water. Maybe a test port built into the exhaust system. If that's the case and there are diesels available, wonder if DEF is an option? DEF Ballast tanks? 

[oldjeep]

Just now, Ronnie said:

I'm hearing rumblings of Emissions Testing on boats before too many years from industry people. Not sure how they will test the exhaust if it's under water. Maybe a test port built into the exhaust system. 

I thought there were already emissions testing on new boat engines?  My 2005 Bayliner had a 3? star emissions sticker on it.   Ilmor claims 5 star emissions on its GDI engines

 

[Ronnie]

19 minutes ago, oldjeep said:

I thought there were already emissions testing on new boat engines?  My 2005 Bayliner had a 3? star emissions sticker on it.   Ilmor claims 5 star emissions on its GDI engines

 

I'm talking about yearly testing like your vehicles.

[85 Barefoot]

1 hour ago, tjklein said:

I don't think we'll see any turbo diesel options in the big brands for quite a while, if ever.  I think there are all sorts of issues to deal with from shear size, to operating rpm range, to emissions, to heat.

IMO...not happening.

Tj, mastercraft has already offerred a diesel.  Aftermarket sources have existed.  My dealer has done multiple conversions to diesel for people who keep theri boats on diesel powered yachts.  They are not desirable powertrains all things being equal.