Another Prop Thread with Chart

[ahopkins22LSV]

8 minutes ago, WakeSS said:

Agreed. That was the first pull on this boat and I was like heck no, not buying this if surfing RPM is that high. But it was all due to the prop angle. Every LB I put in the bow or LB out of the rear lowered the RPM. When I was down to maybe 600 per PNP with no bow bag it was back to ~3600.

That was the point I was trying to make in my rambling 4 am post

Forgot elevation - 1000ft.

Those RPM numbers still seem WAY high with only 300 ish extra in PNP. I had up to 18 people in the boat with full 750's for PNP and didn't run any bow weight; never saw over 42/4300RPMS at 11.0mph. Wedge between 1 and 2 "clicks" from lift.

[WakeSS]

Wondering if mid/bow tanks were not actually full? Picking it up right now. Will experiment over the weekend and will report back.

[The Hulk]

I just measured my 2016 25lsv. Used cell clinometer to take difference in hull angle vs shaft where it exits. 2.2 and14.2  so prop shaft angle is about exactly 12 deg 

also 7/8" prop clearance wiyh 15" prop might be iffy on going to a15.5" not sure if 5/8" clearance is enough or comforting...

2017 didn't measure but has to be near 5 deg more steep I'll see ifI can Photoshop measure to get close

[The Hulk]

update. went out for a quick run. filled a 1k bow sac about 700-800lbs and put it in the bow for once. now I only had a driver , wife and 1yr old and 3yr old so nearly nothing.

went from the norm 4100-4200 down to 3600-3700 depending on 18.8-11.2 and deoending on wedge at 2 or 3 clicks seemed to make 100rpm difference. so 500-600rom savings 

now I think i had too much bow weight and not enough rear ...wave was pretty good but I could tell too much bow. if i had a bunch of ppl it would have been epic. or if I had 1100-1200s in the back. but was very surprised that I dropped 500-600rpms.

I do want to get some larger locker sacs as i often go on runs with just one other surfer and or the wife so very light loads so i need to compensate on those days.

I did mess around with wedge I did slow down from 11.3 to 10.9 and moved wedge to 2nd click found a good wave to get some sliders on closer to boat so nkw im happy again. nailed a 360, then nailed my second 720!!!! don't ask nobody recorded it of course....getting very close to a 1080 now!!!!

 

[The Hulk]

[bbattiste247]

You just got that boat and you already have 50 hours. That is more than us. One year and we have 145 hours.

[The Hulk]

Just now, bbattiste247 said:

You just got that boat and you already have 50 hours. That is more than us. One year and we have 145 hours.

it was a demo with about 50hrs.. I think @ahopkinsTXi put 40hrs on it in one day ha

pic at 11.3 not much different

prop/ shaft angle on a 2016 25lsv model.

[bbattiste247]

You should try different props for sure. It appears that the rpms are high. That is (picture) the range that I used run with the 2249. It is so nice to run in the lower rpm range (3000-3200). Motor is quieter and it is smoother, but I don't think it makes much difference on gas. With the 2401, I need weight in the bow, but I have noticed with weight up front the bow stays at about the same height no matter where the wedge is; therefore, the wake doesn't seem to change much.  

[The Hulk]

light in the ba k and too much bow weight I noticed 2nd and 3rd wedge position hardly changed anything just a smidge better on second but without bow weight 3rd is best and 2nd doesn't do much. I truly do believe that varying tab angles would be a huge help. going to take a video of wedge moving then slow it down to see if it works like im thinking.

props.. very anxious..end of summer wife took my wallet and said no more boating Accessories! I've got an in with Santa though... ha may have OJ make me something around 15x17 or 15x16.5 to be safe as I hate adding a bow sac if i dont have to and i don't want to be stuck HAVING to .. 

stillwaiting on an answer from WM on bigger bags.. anyone abke to chime in on if they have a 25lsv and bigger than the custom 750s.. and are they custom?

[ahopkins22LSV]

@The Hulk it was only like 38.9 hours ...  lol. No it wasn't even that but I did rack up a few for the event I got to use that boat for! EVERYONE loved it. 

With the Rpms dropping with bow weight my guess would be you would see a significant drop with a more aggressive prop. That's just a guess though. 

[The Hulk]

@ahopkinsTXi thanks for saving me on the 20hr break in gas!

yes I'm gonna get bigger bags try it to see difference then make decision on prop pitch.  I'll probably end up with +2-2.5" pitch to 16.25-16.75

Edited September 3, 2016 by The Hulk

[store934]

On September 3, 2016 at 9:30 PM, The Hulk said:

 

stillwaiting on an answer from WM on bigger bags.. anyone abke to chime in on if they have a 25lsv and bigger than the custom 750s.. and are they custom?

I have what I have been told are the custom bags from Wakemakers in my 25.  The dealer just orders the boat with them.  When filled they take up the entire locker with no room for storage. They are sort of T shaped and don't' pop out the storage trays and sink the swim platform maybe 5 inches when loaded.  I can snap a few pics if you want.  

Still waiting on trying out the 2277 prop but I hope it is the right combo of RPMs and pushing this boat.   The  2249 seems like too much and I was running a 2315 in my 23 LSV but that was a different tranny.

[The Hulk]

hard to tell from this pic but seems there is rooms for bigger on sides and taller on top by a few hundred lbs

medium load of ppl and no bow weight. I'd say aanother 500# in back makes a big difference from what I've seen. ive got to add bigger for thise 3ppl days

[store934]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 3:27 AM, The Hulk said:

hard to tell from this pic but seems there is rooms for bigger on sides and taller on top by a few hundred lbs

 

 

My bags are also fly high but they seem taller than your bags.  Could just be the angle of the shot but I don't recall being able to see around them at all when stuffed full but they do passively drain over time.

I finally got the ACME 2277 (had the 2249).  I don't have solid numbers from the 2249 but I believe there is about a 400-500 RPM drop which seems about right given the cup and pitch change.  Here are some numbers unloaded and loaded at different wedge / speed so you have a comparison to your 2249.   Maybe a couple hundred pounds of bow weight, full PNP and stock and 600Lbs of people ballast + 400 of "stuff" at 2800ft.   I was also able to plane out at this weight with the lift setting but it took a little time to get up to speed and hit max RPMs.  We really don't wakeboard but I wanted to see difference between the 2249 and 2247.  Felt like maybe 5-10 seconds of difference. 

As I added more wedge it could have really used more bow weight to keep the bow down and I think the RPMs would have stayed down lower than in the pic.  Did not have time to play with that variable since the days are getting short.   I am going out again tonight and may try filling the bow sac to 600 or so if we run more wedge but most of my crew don't want the steeper wave because they are more skim style riders and the bow rise is acceptable at low wedge angles for me.  

I think this is close to the right prop for me and reminds me of the 2315 I had on a 2014 23 lSV.  If you are hoping to get to 3000-3200 you are right about more needing more pitch to get that low.  I am not really sure I would be happy with much more pitch than 2277 though so 3000-3200 is probably out of reach for me.   I am pretty happy where I am at and would rather spin a few more RPMs.  Something in the low to mid 16's might be okay but I think much more than that it would be a struggle with a really big crew and full ballast.  There is probably a little room to play from the 2277 but I don't think there is much if you want to run heavy. 

Hope that helps you when it comes time to find the right prop.

 

 

[The Hulk]

@store934 thanks a ton for that info, its just what i expected! the 2277 (15"x15.75") is the "ideal" all-around prop best of all worlds or should be at least the GO-TO prop for the 2016 Models with 1:76:1 gear ratio and the 450 engine. 

i can say that at any given wedge position that when i added about 800 lbs of bow weight that i dropped 500rpms, from 4100-4200 down to 3600-3700 with the 2249 (15"x14.25") the bow weight made a HUGE difference. i suspect if your running 700-750s in the lockers and you add 600-700 in the bow that you will probably drop another few hundred down into the 3200-3300 range (just a guess) - when i had 2-adults in the bow lets say 300-350lbs it didnt make much difference but when i had 800 lbs in a bow sac it was a HUGE difference in RPMS but it was not a fair comparrison due to the number of people in the boat: 2-adults in the front didnt make much difference but there were 10 ppl in the back. when i had 800 lbs of bow weight i only had 1-2 people in the back so that 800 lbs made a much bigger leverage difference if that makes sense. 

Wife cut me off for spending money on the boat till spring: but i do have a 14.5"x16" spare prop from previous boat, if i get up to the lake in the next week or two i may have to slip that on just for fun and test smaller diameter with larger pitch. should be interesting.. in theory the 14.5X16 should be just a hair less than the 15x15.75. 

i'm not a fan of using the bow bag as its a hassle. so if i can lower the rpms with smaller diameter and larger pitch it might be another way. 

WM said the custom "T" bags for the 25 Lsv are actually 700lbs and not 750s...interesting since everyone calls them 750s?? if you want to go larger they recommended the LBS series bags because there is 50" between the fill/drain PNP hoses: https://www.wakemakers.com/wakemakers-rear-lbs-ballast-bag.html 

i'm checking with my dealer how to make a better setup, due to the long fill/drain times even with the 700s Upside down "T" bags, i'm checking if i go to the 1280 LBS bag, and if possible to add 2-drain ports + 2 fill ports: my "idea" is as follows:

1. hard tank connects into fill input ONE on the bag as normal

2. add second through hull pump that connects into second fill input TWO on bag

3. drain port ONE on bag connects into hard tank as normal

4. second drain port TWO on bag is connected to additional 1100 GPH pump with added through side-hull drain

5. Add vent hose with Y and check valve to auto-burp bags (same as 2017 PNP system)

[store934]

Closing the loop on this with my experience with the 2277 and a full bow bag.  Ran it last night and I assumed I would see another RPM drop.  I could run any wedge angle and it did not change the bow rise as you stated.  I was a little surprised RPMs did not really change much if at all (certainly not another 500 rpms like you achieved) .  Stayed 3400-3500 goofy to 3500-3700 regular depending on wedge.   Not really a bad thing I guess because I like you am looking for reasons to not run a bow bag most of the time.  

It might be different on a day with a very large crew but with a small crew and my tolerance for bow rise I am not sure its worth the effort for me personally with a handful of people.  Fully loaded with everyone sitting in the a$$ end it probably would be a different story and would be worth it.

your mileage may vary...

[The Hulk]

honestly with my current prop on the 25lsv i notice the wedge no matter what only changes the rpms by 100 or so (not much) when i had a TON of bow weight as mentioned with nearly non in the rear i saw 500rpm drop but then when changing the wedge from there it had no affect. so my guess is that you reached your bow drop already with that prop. 

from my experience "light on people in the rear" and a heavy bow bag doesnt do much for the wave, in fact i thought it hurt the wave. I know i'll catch hell form everyone on here that claims lots of bow weight is key, but in my 23lsv if it was only 1-2 people in the boat and same on my 25 putting 800 lbs in the bow didnt do much but if i put that bow bag in the play pin area it made a HUGE difference:

for example even now if only 2-3 of us go out, i will NOT put the bow bag in the bow it doe NOT help the wave much, but if i throw it in the middle of the boat its a HUGE difference (similar to having another 6 people) the problem is obviously it kind of takes up a lot of floor room. at least on the 25 there is room in front and back of it, on my 23 it was the whole floor. 

going to possibly upgrade the rears from 700s to the 1200s although i suspect they may only fill up to around 1000 or so, but hopeful then i would NOT need to put the bow bag in the middle of the boat when running a light crew of 3 people. but if those bags are in the rear locker it may offset the boat to where i DO need to put the bow bag with a little weight in the bow.. One reason i'm considering adding some bags on each side of the boat in storage i'm guessing i could fit 500 lbs each side and fill them up if they are only 10-12" high and still have room for jackets and crap on top of them. i dont want to make them the full size or there would be no storage. but i just dont know how larger bags in the back are going to offset the leverage of the bow. all i can say is throwing 1k ballast in the middle of the boat is HUGE on whatever boat your running. Granted when we have 6-8 ppl we dont need it and the results are what i say diminishing returns for the hassle of having the bow bag in the middle of the boat. i did use it with a larger crew and felt there just wasnt that big of difference and not worth the hassle of lost space. 

honestly i simply HATE using a throw over the boat pump and bag, someone has to sit there and hold it right to keep it draining etc.. and you cant fill up if your moving etc.. such a hassle. 

 

also given what you said i'm still not 100% convinced that the newer monster 17-18" diameter props are the answer: i think there might be something on these 15" higher pitched props or possibly going to a 14.5" x 17" .... would be fun to see what the results are at least. I' could be way off but i just dont believe the "slip" is as big as what we all might  think.  if i'm correct given your results above means changing the wedge more/less drag and not changing any rpms means your not slipping i would think, if you were slipping a lot when you change wedge positions with more drag you would expect the rpms to go up but as you have stated almost no difference.. so does that mean you need to pitch up? and what point do you need smaller diameter to keep the engine from working harder RPMS for that same torque? there has to be a cross over and a ballance there which i'm clueless to as what the exact numbers are but given your results gives me hope for pitching up further. 

All that aside i'll get a 2277 and use that as my standard prop and hope to buy another one for testing...just sucks since its an expensive "test". ha but at least a 14.5-15" prop is a heck of a lot cheaper test than those 17-18" props!

Edited September 30, 2016 by The Hulk

[DarkSide]

Hulk hypothetically what would be the ideal setup to push the Ninja weight, after you get 1200's have a bow bag and 12 peeps on board ?

16x16, 17x17, 15x17, 15x15??? 

If you had choice 450 w/1.75:1 or 572 w/1.5:1 which would you choose and why?

Just curious,  

[The Hulk]

sorry for the long rambling answer::....it depends: all day long i'd choose the 572 with lower gear ratio to reduce RPMS and have lower RPM torque....but its an expensive upgrade...but "if i had a choice".... 

2016 your stuck with 15" diameter props: so on a 2016 my ideal setup would surely be the 572 with 1.5:1 and 15x19 or 15x20. with a 1.5:1 you still have more torque than the 450 motor on a 1.75:1, and you would have a few hundred rpms less on that 1.5:1 gear ratio. @bbattiste247is currently running a 2277 prop 15x17.75 on 1.76:1 with ONLY the 410 but  with 572 and 1.5:1 you have a lot more lower RPM torque/power than the 410 and 450, so i suspect the RPMS would be sub 3k rpms for sure. so ideally if i had a 2016 with a 572 and 1.5:1 my starting prop would be a 15x18 (for safety) and pitch up from there. i suspect you could end up with a 15x21 or something easily. with the 450 i'm thinking i'll end up with something in the 15x16.50 range or 15x17 range. @bbattiste247 is on the edge with a 15x17.75 but has the 410 so i'm VERY curious if my 450 would have just enough to overcome this prop. (granted he is also in a smaller 23 and i'm in a larger 25 with more weight)....hmmm (like bbattiste) i could care less about wakeboarding so it might be a good prop for me since i surf and cruise , and tube only. the reason i'm skeptical is that again my larger boat, more weight, and from what i see there isnt a lot more torque on the 450 than the 410 until your at high 3k rpms so perhaps my 450 wouldnt do much over his 410 if i'm trying to keep in the low 3k rpm range. (maybe if i get time i can throw my spare 14.5x16 to test difference compared to my 15x14.25> if i lower RPMS then that my prove my thinking.. although i dont have a prop removing tool...

2017: you can swing a bigger diameter prop under the hull: so i would probably stick with a 16" diameter instead of 17" but then you have to throw the different gear ratio of 1.76:1 in the mix I dont know at what point a massively larger pitch over diameter becomes Not-so-efficient . 2017 i think i would be in the 16x20+ as well. (again i'm still not convinced there is all that much slip) I think the issue becomes prop/shaft angle shooting down to the bottom of the lake and props over size diameter rather than over pitched. 

when i see and hear the point of wedge position changing without affecting RPMS, that makes "me" believe there isnt much slip so why not pitch up, or consider smaller diameter with steeper pitch to lower RPMS at the same torque levels. 

Note: i DO strongly believe there is about 5 degree bow rise difference that makes a HUGE RPM difference: once you get it down, past "x-point" you dont reduce RPMS any further as noted above, but when your above X-degree you wasting quite a few RPMS. I noticed this also on my smaller 23 lsv which was on a 1.25:1 with 555hp but it was "less difference" due to the gear box: now that i'm on a 1.76 with weaker 450 thats a larger noticeable difference. This is also why i believe the 2017s with about a 4-5 degree steeper shaft angle will have a hair harder time overcoming that  (depending on how they are weighted) and these guys "may" be more sensitive to having a little bow weight to overcome whatever that angle difference is. (theory) 

REASONS for me staying smaller diameter and larger pitch are: 

1. Lower Surf RPMS! (no wakeboarding that crap will kill you!)

2. Lower cruise RPMS, often cruise several miles across the chain of lakes. (i use to cruise comfortably in my 23 in the 30s at around 3k rpms, now in my 25 i seem to cruise in the 20s at mid 3k rpms due to the noise it just sounds fast but isnt) 

Edited September 30, 2016 by The Hulk

[MadMan]

18 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

 the 2017s with about a 4-5 degree steeper shaft angle

I'm assuming that the reason Malibu and others are going with higher gear ratios and larger diameter props is to increase the efficiency at surf speeds (instead of wakeboard speeds).  What I wonder is how much of this efficiency increase is used up by pointing the prop down more for hull clearance, causing more of the thrust to be pushing the boat up instead of forward??

[The Hulk]

Just now, MadMan said:

I'm assuming that the reason Malibu and others are going with higher gear ratios and larger diameter props is to increase the efficiency at surf speeds (instead of wakeboard speeds).  What I wonder is how much of this efficiency increase is used up by pointing the prop down more for hull clearance, causing more of the thrust to be pushing the boat up instead of forward??

my exact question.. also why these new fwd IO's would have a huge RPM advantage over our inboards.. 

hopefully those with a 25 lsv can post some RPMs on TMC soon!

[dppendar]

On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 6:27 AM, The Hulk said:

hard to tell from this pic but seems there is rooms for bigger on sides and taller on top by a few hundred lbs

medium load of ppl and no bow weight. I'd say aanother 500# in back makes a big difference from what I've seen. ive got to add bigger for thise 3ppl days

looking at those rear locker bags.... I think those are the lower weight bags they make.  They did that size so people wouldn't complain about bow rise(per my phone conversation with wakemakers(Brian) in the spring)... the ones I ordered are also the inverted T shape but they fill the locker significantly more towards the top.  I'll try to snap a pic this weekend. 

Brian mentioned the smaller bags were listed at just over 600lbs but weighed a little more when full..... and the 750's are more that advertised as well.. but this is from 6 months ago.  In any event, my Fly high bags are a lot bigger...not sure what the current inventory is but it says 700 on their website.

[store934]

Mine also fill all the way to the top to the point I am having passive draining issues because the are above the vent line.  Top of the bag pretty much fills the entire open space and is level with the top of the locker before they drain some.  Really can't see anything but the top of the bag when they are full.

" the 750's are more that advertised as well.."

That matches what my dealer told me as well (bags were actually bigger than 750's when full).

[The Hulk]

Strange my dealer said they were a bit more than 750s as well but WM said no. Do u think there are two sizes for the 25? Wm claims 700 lbs.  Strange.. although mine are about 6" below the top. And I don't have any passive drain issues that I'm aware of although I can't say that I have ever opened the hatch to check the bags before hitting the drain buttons.

Contemplating the 1250s.. or custom

[The Hulk]

Threw my spare smaller but higher pitch on the 25lsv today a 14.5x16. cruise Roms seemed a little better but didn't take much note just a quick cruise.. top end to my surprise didn't change really still 37ish. I'll update after I get a surf run in to compare the RPM's

Leaning to make a decision for next year and leaning towards a 15x16-17