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WakeSS

buying advice - 23 or 25 LSV

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WakeSS

Hi all, New here but not to Malibu boats. I have been wakeboarding, surfing, and skating since the late 90's. Mainly behind Bu's; Sunsetter, 03 VLX, 05 LSV, 08 SAN. All owned by my best friend. Been out of it for a while and it is finally time for a new boat. After the sticker shock of a used 05 LSV selling now for what it was in 05, I decided on a new Axis T23 and headed to the dealer... Fast forward 2 hours and I was laying down a deposit on a 25 LSV and gearing up for a demo ride. The wife and I fell in love with the 25's color & options (loaded, 450, stereo delete w custom $7k build, wake view seating) but it's the 25... Seems to kind of be the redheaded stepchild. Will the resale be lower like the 247? Plus I have some extra expenses to reconfigure my dock slip, lift is more expensive, gas mileage, etc... We have found a 23 LSV we like but it has the 410, stock stereo and needs a heater added, oh and no wake view seating. It is $11k less...These are left over 2016s with large discounts so these two are really the only ones in play.

Intended use will probably be 40% surf, 20% wakeboard/skate, 20% kids tubing, 20% cruising/transport to dinner on the lake.

Most of the time it will probably just be the wife, daughter, her friend and myself. For the weekends add another couple and a kid or two. I do have a large family and friends were it would be nice to get 8 or 9 adults and 4 or 5 kids on the boat a few times a year.

I'm pretty much all in on the 25 at this point after reading Hulks posts. The wife thinks "it's just too big" and is still on the fence...

What do you guys think?

 

 

Edited by WakeSS

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granddaddy55
1 hour ago, WakeSS said:

Hi all, New here but not to Malibu boats. I have been wakeboarding, surfing, and skating since the late 90's. Mainly behind Bu's; Sunsetter, 03 VLX, 05 LSV, 08 SAN. All owned by my best friend. Been out of it for a while and it is finally time for a new boat. After the sticker shock of a used 05 LSV selling now for what it was in 05, I decided on a new Axis T23 and headed to the dealer... Fast forward 2 hours and I was laying down a deposit on a 25 LSV and gearing up for a demo ride. The wife and I fell in love with the 25's color & options (loaded, 450, stereo delete w custom $7k build, wake view seating) but it's the 25... Seems to kind of be the redheaded stepchild. Will the resale be lower like the 247? Plus I have some extra expenses to reconfigure my dock slip, lift is more expensive, gas mileage, etc... We have found a 23 LSV we like but it has the 410, stock stereo and needs a heater added, oh and no wake view seating. It is $11k less...These are left over 2016s with large discounts so these two are really the only ones in play.

Intended use will probably be 40% surf, 20% wakeboard/skate, 20% kids tubing, 20% cruising/transport to dinner on the lake.

Most of the time it will probably just be the wife, daughter, her friend and myself. For the weekends add another couple and a kid or two. I do have a large family and friends were it would be nice to get 8 or 9 adults and 4 or 5 kids on the boat a few times a year.

I'm pretty much all in on the 25 at this point after reading Hulks posts. The wife thinks "it's just too big" and is still on the fence...

What do you guys think?

 

 

If you got the scratch and the room those big boats when loaded down make sweet waves and really good without the people for your 40% as well if you max your pnp 

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ahopkinsVTX

Buy the 25 and don't look back. It's absolutely awesome. I had the privilege of using hulk's boat he ended up buying and every single person I took out, about 30 during our event was blown away by the boat and surf wave. It has friends in our lake debating trading in their 23LSV and T22 for the 25.

I talked to hulk about it before he did finalized and I told him the same things he just told you.

Edited by ahopkinsTXi

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The Hulk

@WakeSS just think what a 25 will cost in a year or two if you decide to upgrade then... you "should" get a crazy deal on the 25 since its a 2016, and since there was a tranny update for 17 but the base price is already crazy on the 17s. like 7% higher so already like 11-15k more.. for the same base boat excluding options.. take the 25lsv and run man!

 

only advise: mine had the ACME 2248 which is 15"x14.25" do not leave there with this prop, its ok.. too low pitch IMO, it will rip the surf rope out of your hands if you WOT, even loaded with 16ppl and full PNP etc.. 

at least get teh 2277 15" x 15.75" at a minimum, i'm planning on switching to at least this one when it gets in but i've only got a few weekends left so i'll wait till next year to mess around with this... 

i'd like to also try the 2401 next year a 15" x 17.75 since i dont wakeboard any and i only surf and cruise it may be the choice for me. but with your boarding you would probably be best with the 2277

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bbattiste247
5 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

@WakeSS just think what a 25 will cost in a year or two if you decide to upgrade then... you "should" get a crazy deal on the 25 since its a 2016, and since there was a tranny update for 17 but the base price is already crazy on the 17s. like 7% higher so already like 11-15k more.. for the same base boat excluding options.. take the 25lsv and run man!

 

only advise: mine had the ACME 2248 which is 15"x14.25" do not leave there with this prop, its ok.. too low pitch IMO, it will rip the surf rope out of your hands if you WOT, even loaded with 16ppl and full PNP etc.. 

at least get teh 2277 15" x 15.75" at a minimum, i'm planning on switching to at least this one when it gets in but i've only got a few weekends left so i'll wait till next year to mess around with this... 

i'd like to also try the 2401 next year a 15" x 17.75 since i dont wakeboard any and i only surf and cruise it may be the choice for me. but with your boarding you would probably be best with the 2277

HULK...Next year when you try the 2401, let me know what you think. It is the prop I run on a 2016 23lsv with the 410, and I really like it. At first, I had a hard time getting it up to speed (10.5 mph) with the rear sacs full, but one day some people decided to sit in the bow and that totally engaged the prop. With some extra weight in the bow, there is no problem using this prop to surf with a lot of weight in the boat. 

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The Hulk

@bbattiste247 yes i'm planning on it since i have the 450 i think i'll be "slightly better" off than you becasue looking at the torque curves the 450 takes over in the 3500+ range, currently i'm at 4100ish but its too much power left and too high RPM for my liking, i feel that the 450 should be just enough "over the hump with your prop" by my guessing.. I'll let you know results,

i'm slightly worried the 2277 is under pitched but at least it should be a "starting" point the 2248 is way under pitched IMO, I put together a spreadsheet i'm not quite finished but as far as my calculation goes my 2013 1.25:1 with 555hp and 14.5x16 comes out to to equal percentage of prop/vs torque as a 450hp 1.76:1, and 15 x 17.75. hard to explain and my numbers could be BS/theory as far as calculations go but throwing together numbers that i recall on various boats and others it seems to make a LOT of sense at least to me and your prop would be the closest ratio... The only problem with my calcs is that the SC engines have more HP in the lower RPMS so thats their main advantage is their ability to keep high power at lower RPMS, not to mention they all get a less gear reduction than smaller hp engines. but i've accounted for most of that and kept RPMS the same to calculate thrust power numbers by multiplying prop dia x prop pitch to get "prop number" multiply that by gear rations and hp/torque etc.. found a % of hp that my previous boat seemed perfect and what others have said is perfect and interestingly your prop comes out about perfect match with the 450 (assumign this is somewhat correct) i'll post when finished so others can critique my math... i think with the 410 and 1.76 it was around 15x17 or 17.25 but dont quote me on that its on my home computer.. i'll keep ya posted. 

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dppendar

I had a 23 for 7 years and it was great.  My kids being older now(15, 13 and 6) they are always bringing friends.  Really enjoy the extra space with the 25!  Perfect for 2 families and all the gear... coolers, jackets, etc.  I vote 25!

 

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gdmatson
7 hours ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

Buy the 25 and don't look back. It's absolutely awesome. I had the privilege of using hulk's boat he ended up buying and every single person I took out, about 30 during our event was blown away by the boat and surf wave. It has friends in our lake debating trading in their 23LSV and T22 for the 25.

I talked to hulk about it before he did finalized and I told him the same things he just told you.

So, is this advance notice I'm gonna have the little boat on the lake? Lol

I feel wake envy coming again....

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ahopkinsVTX
23 minutes ago, gdmatson said:

So, is this advance notice I'm gonna have the little boat on the lake? Lol

I feel wake envy coming again....

Haha no I think that will always be me with the TXi. And I don't think they are going to upgrade right away but when they do I think they will be considering it.

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NHolladay

Thing is sick.  Triple axle for sure and make it happen that thing is bad.  Trust me no problem on resale.

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The Hulk
23 minutes ago, NHolladay said:

Thing is sick.  Triple axle for sure and make it happen that thing is bad.  Trust me no problem on resale.

where is the link to the boat being considered?

 

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RyanB

I have a 14 23LSV.  And we have been debating going to the 25.  The delta between the value of my boat vs the price of a new 25 has kept me from pulling the trigger up to now.  But if I were buying new, and the difference was only $11k, no question, I would go with the 25.

That said, I would reconsider your engine choice.  No way I would get a 23 with anything less than the 450.  And the 25 needs all the engine you can get.  

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h2oratJR

25 has one of the best surf wakes out there you can load the wave with multiple surfers at one time .  If your big on surfing . 

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Pnwrider
27 minutes ago, RyanB said:

That said, I would reconsider your engine choice.  No way I would get a 23 with anything less than the 450.  And the 25 needs all the engine you can get.  

Depends on elevation. Most of the guys with a 23 lsv on here are running the 410 without any issues. There was a lot of debate between rather or not there were any real internal differences between the 410 and 450 or if it was just a tune. 

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hethj7

 

Just now, Pnwrider said:

Depends on elevation. Most of the guys with a 23 lsv on here are running the 410 without any issues. There was a lot of debate between rather or not there were any real internal differences between the 410 and 450 or if it was just a tune. 

Even though it is talked about on here, I think prop angle has as much impact as anything (okay, okay, I haven't been in an LSA boat yet) and doesn't get enough emphasis.    My buddy with a '14 LSV and the 350 used to struggle and hit the speed wall - until we threw a 1,000 lb sack in the bow.    My 16 LSV seems to hit a speed wall if I have rear PNP full (with the custom bags) and little to no bow weight.  Put some bow weight in, and you're back in business.   Now I'm not at altitude and I'll never dispute more power is better, but get your bow down and the prop pointed somewhere besides the bottom of the lake and the base engines can get it done. 

As to the OP's question - 25 seems like the right call if money doesn't matter too much.  But, coming in looking for a T23 and walking out with a 25LSV is quite the upsell.   I don't care about people's finances, but as the OP mentioned with the 25 you have lift modifications, etc. to deal with.  And don't discount all the goodies you'll need/want with a new boat - new boards to take advantage of the wave, speaker sox and rack covers, ballast bags, etc. etc.  Even though I owned a VLX before we got our LSV, it seems like I'm dropping money left and right on goodies for the new boat.   Just don't leave yourself short on funds to enjoy the new boat - heck, we bought my wife a new surfboard when we got the boat and with less than 50 hours on the boat, she wants a new board already :thumbup:

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ahopkinsVTX

I am 99% sure the 450 is the base engine in the 25.

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The Hulk
5 hours ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

I am 99% sure the 450 is the base engine in the 25.

correct at least what i was told and have read on TMC, nor have i seen any with anything less.

Keep in mind there is a what seems to be a BIG difference in PROP-angle on the 2016 model vs the 2017 model

2016 450hp with 1.76:1 and a 15" prop

2017 450hp with 2:1 and a 17" prop -

2017 models the shaft angle is quite steep and there is probably room to swing a 21-22" prop on the 2017 model (i couldnt say for sure but there has to be like 3-4" clearance under the 17" prop with the new strut. Which keep in mind the draft must be 3-4" more as well i'm "guessing" getting seriously DEEP to where i can see it being a big problem for channels, shallow areas, sandbars etc. while the 2:1 and bigger prop does seem like a big advantage with the 450hp im not quite sure i would have liked that over the downside of the extra draft "whatever it is" over the 2016. you may get slightly better surf performance with the 17" prop but at the sacrifice of cruising and also draft depth. time will tell.. but i would guess a 2017 model has to have probably the deepest draft in the industry. I also dont use 'stated" draft specs i alwasy add 6" because who knows how thats even measured ie (still water, nobody in the boat, no ballast, empty tank, not accounting for "reverse", etc..etc..etc..) 

@hethj7its probably a 5-10 deg change * dont quote me on that so the question is, does the steeper angle actually push the bow down better under the same conditions as the lower shaft angle? my guess is NO, because if you consider the Center of Gravity of our boats with PNP in the rear and the engine in the rear the CG of the boat is probably around the area the shaft goes up through the hull or the "pushing point of the prop" or lever point whatever you want to say, with the CG in that area then your angle is your angle unless you add bow weight. so depending on your weight setup you may require more bow weight in a 2017 than you do in a 2016 model in order to get that prop facing in the fwd direction. Also a huge advantage for those new surfable IOs with fwd facing props! has to be way more efficient than our props facing the bottom of the lake. * For these reasons i decided on the 2016 model vs a stripped 2017 model. between the boat there was just too many plusses in favor of the 2016 vs 2017....and well as i've said the lady loves the color combo on the 2016...seems like you have the same first world problems! haha IMO color combo and a sharp looking boat is going to win over a lot of resale buyers vs some of the nitty gritty, because the people on TMC (all of us being into the nitty gritty) are probably less than 5% of the buying/resale market, so a sharp looking boat is going to go a long ways. i still see some boats 7-8yrs old that i'm like whooaa thats still sharp!

My old boat had every possible option and the LSA, but the colors IMO were hardly from something i would have ever picked, i never got complements, other than nice boat....vs now people always come up at the sandbar and have to check out the sparkles and awesome colors.. gives ya that good warm fuzzy feeling that you spent your money wisely! haha.  

i have a pic somewhere i'll try and find i took of the 2017 under the trailer, and i'll try to get a pic of my strut/shaft under my lift to put up to compare in the next day or two. 

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ahopkinsVTX

Yeah I completely agree, just posted that for the people that were saying order it with at least the 450.

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hethj7

Ryan initially said order the 23 with at least the 450, which is the comment I was responding to.   I think you are right I the 450 bring the base in the 25. 

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RyanB
15 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

Ryan initially said order the 23 with at least the 450, which is the comment I was responding to.   I think you are right I the 450 bring the base in the 25. 

And Ryan still says order at least the 450 in the 23.  I can't speak to low elevations, but I am disappointed in my boat with the 450.  It would not push the boat with 750s in the rear (although I admittedly did not try it with a bow bag - but I don't want to deal with bags on the seats).

I know I am not the first to say this, but I have never heard someone say they ordered too much engine.  It is MUCH less expensive to buy it right the first time than it is to pay to upgrade something in the future.  I am living proof.

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hethj7

I agree 100% more engine is better.  But throw a bow bag up there and tell me how much improvement you see.  At some point it barely matters how much engine you have if the prop is trying to push you up instead of forward.  Yea, I wish we weren't dealing with bags on the seats but that seems to be the reality if rear PNP is maxed out and you want to run over 11 mph surfing.  

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DarkSide

More is better, until you resell!  If you flip fairly regularly, 2-3 years you are going to lose A LOT of that cost.  If you are going to keep for years then yes go big.   It is really frustrating to have $130k in a boat that makes you drain ballast to get to speed because you didn't buy enough power!  However $9000 is an expensive option that will likely only return $3000 when you sell it!

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RyanB
57 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

I agree 100% more engine is better.  But throw a bow bag up there and tell me how much improvement you see.  At some point it barely matters how much engine you have if the prop is trying to push you up instead of forward.  Yea, I wish we weren't dealing with bags on the seats but that seems to be the reality if rear PNP is maxed out and you want to run over 11 mph surfing.  

A bag on the seats is 100% no go.  I personally would get further convincing Mrs RyanB to upgrade to a bigger boat/engine and spend $XX,XXX. than I could to get a bow bag.

23 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

More is better, until you resell!  If you flip fairly regularly, 2-3 years you are going to lose A LOT of that cost.  If you are going to keep for years then yes go big.   It is really frustrating to have $130k in a boat that makes you drain ballast to get to speed because you didn't buy enough power!  However $9000 is an expensive option that will likely only return $3000 when you sell it!

I kept my last boat 9 years.  We may keep this boat that long (would be more likely with the big engine).  You are likely to lose big $ flipping every 2-3 years regardless of what engine you have.

I am mostly happy with my boat.  With the 400's in the rear, plus stock ballast, it still surfs better than 95% of the other boats we see.  But after spending close to $100k, I would rather have spent another $5k - $9k and be completely happy than mostly happy.

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