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Transmission Ratios 2017 vs 2016 vs earlier Upgrade Questions.


The Hulk

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13 minutes ago, DarkSide said:

I believe I am 1.46:1

you can hit 54-55mph with a 1.46? are you sure? 1.25 i totally get but 1.46 seems it woudl be impossible at least around 5500rpms?

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6 minutes ago, IXFE said:

In a 2016 Malibu the solution to 4k rpm's is NOT to get the torque prop (2249).  Standard prop (2277) will do just fine with the new transmission.  I run this prop and it's great.  We surf with 4k in ballast in the 23 LSV and RPM's are mid 3's.  And that's with the standard 410 engine and I've got plenty of throttle left.

i also thought it was a little low pitched, 

2249: 15"x14.25

2277: 15"x15.75 - should shave a few hundred rpms. 

the 2277 would be a min upgrade i would think with the 1.76, but i suspect it would make sense to see if something in the 15x16.5 range to be best and get down in the 3500 rpm range...who knows.. 

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5 minutes ago, The Hulk said:

i also thought it was a little low pitched, 

2249: 15"x14.25

2277: 15"x15.75 - should shave a few hundred rpms. 

the 2277 would be a min upgrade i would think with the 1.76, but i suspect it would make sense to see if something in the 15x16.5 range to be best and get down in the 3500 rpm range...who knows.. 

Hulk... I already am surfing at 3,500 rpm with the 2277 prop (15x15.75 cup .150).  Obviously it can fluctuate with speed or wedge setting (see pics below).  Remember... IXFE runs HEAVY!!

Acme makes a 2401 (15x17.75 cup .105) and a 2367 (15x17.75 cup .150).  Those props would lower rpm even further, but would it get to surf speed??  Would be fun to test it!!

Goofy @ 3500 rpm

945DCA29-1926-4AE1-818A-04C0FE7FE079_zps

 

Regular @ 3700 rpm (more wedge)

45BF84F6-BCF5-4FDA-A13B-098F53D7B1B3_zps

 

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17 minutes ago, IXFE said:

Hulk... I already am surfing at 3,500 rpm with the 2277 prop (15x15.75 cup .150).  Obviously it can fluctuate with speed or wedge setting (see pics below).  Remember... IXFE runs HEAVY!!

Acme makes a 2401 (15x17.75 cup .105) and a 2367 (15x17.75 cup .150).  Those props would lower rpm even further, but would it get to surf speed??  Would be fun to test it!!

Goofy @ 3500 rpm

945DCA29-1926-4AE1-818A-04C0FE7FE079_zps

 

Regular @ 3700 rpm (more wedge)

45BF84F6-BCF5-4FDA-A13B-098F53D7B1B3_zps

 

I've got a 2016 23 lsv with the 410 motor and 1.76. I am running the 2401 prop (15x17.75) and I am constantly running around 3000 rpms with no wedge and no more than 3200 rpm's with wedge at 10.2 mph. With the boat sacked out (2x750lbs in rear), 2 clicks from stow, and 3 adults, it won't go much faster than about 10.5 mph. BUT I did notice when I had 5-6 adults, with two in the bow, it didn't seem to have a problem reaching even 11 mph. I was surprised, but think maybe when the prop is straighter, it works more effeciantly. Overall, I like the prop...it cuts down on engine noise and bow rise. Runs very smoothly and lowers rpms when going between 25 and 30 mph. I am going to experiment some this weekend by putting more weight up front.

Edited by bbattiste247
forgot to add sack weight
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19 minutes ago, bbattiste247 said:

I've got a 2016 23 lsv with the 410 motor and 1.76. I am running the 2401 prop (15x17.75) and I am constantly running around 3000 rpms with no wedge and no more than 3200 rpm's with wedge at 10.2 mph. With the boat sacked out (2x750lbs in rear), 2 clicks from stow, and 3 adults, it won't go much faster than about 10.5 mph. BUT I did notice when I had 5-6 adults, with two in the bow, it didn't seem to have a problem reaching even 11 mph. I was surprised, but think maybe when the prop is straighter, it works more effeciantly. Overall, I like the prop...it cuts down on engine noise and bow rise. Runs very smoothly and lowers rpms when going between 25 and 30 mph. I am going to experiment some this weekend by putting more weight up front.

This is GREAT info. Since I run a 650 bow sack I bet I'd be fine with the 2401. 

Your assesment is accurate. When all the weight is in the back, your prop can only make you go so fast when it's aimed at the bottom of the lake. Get a bow sack and see what happens!  Your surf wave will improve dramatically as well!

EA02CC38-9911-4481-BC1C-A878F7F48D98_zps

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So u think in a 2013 25LSV with 1.76 and 450 hp tad more than the 410 I might be alright throwing that 2401 might have just enough without the bow sac although I'll have one

Edited by The Hulk
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I'm curious as to why Malibu, and others, are going to transmissions with more torque multiplication.  Is a larger diameter prop spinning slower more efficient?  Is smaller prop spinning faster more prone to cavitation? Or the slip percentage being greater disrupts the wake?  Smoother running because it not spinning as fast?   Or is it on the other end, engine revving higher to be able to produce more horsepower?

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16 minutes ago, MadMan said:

I'm curious as to why Malibu, and others, are going to transmissions with more torque multiplication.  Is a larger diameter prop spinning slower more efficient?  Is smaller prop spinning faster more prone to cavitation? Or the slip percentage being greater disrupts the wake?  Smoother running because it not spinning as fast?   Or is it on the other end, engine revving higher to be able to produce more horsepower?

I mean the titanic wasn't running an 11" prop.

titanic_propellors.gif

 

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1 hour ago, MadMan said:

I'm curious as to why Malibu, and others, are going to transmissions with more torque multiplication.  Is a larger diameter prop spinning slower more efficient?  Is smaller prop spinning faster more prone to cavitation? Or the slip percentage being greater disrupts the wake?  Smoother running because it not spinning as fast?   Or is it on the other end, engine revving higher to be able to produce more horsepower?

 

It's because of surfing...... At surf speeds, the smaller props have a much larger amount of slip against the water, and are less efficient. You will typically be running higher rpms than you need to. Think about how, when surfing, you are running similar rpms to wakeboarding at 22mph...... Lots of slip when surfing. 

Swap out for a larger diameter, and you lose the torque ability with a higher ratio gearbox. Solution is to lower gearbox ratio.

 

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15 hours ago, The Hulk said:

So u think in a 2013 25LSV with 1.76 and 450 hp tad more than the 410 I might be alright throwing that 2401 might have just enough without the bow sac although I'll have one

I guess it depends on how big your rear bags are.  If you are running 550's then you'll probably be fine without the bow sack.  If you want to run bigger bags (e.g. Wakemakers), then you really should get the bow sack (sounds like you have one).  With the bow sack, I can see the 2401 working and getting you really low surf RPM's.  Without it I'm afraid you'll suffer the same fate as @bbattiste247 who can barely manage 10mph.  The 450 won't change that. 

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12 minutes ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

The 25 didn't need any additional bow weight with 750's in the back. FYI. 

That doesn't surprise me... longer boats don't need as much bow weight.  Also, the 750's likely are not filling all the way.  I had Sumo 750's in my '14 23 LSV and the odd shape of locker prevents them from filling to max capacity.  This is why WM started making custom bags for Malibus. 

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3 hours ago, ahopkinsTXi said:

The 25 didn't need any additional bow weight with 750's in the back. FYI. 

have around 70 hours on my 25.  use the 750 wakemaker customs.  I add around 600 lbs of bombwake to the tip of the bow as I do get significant bow rise with those 750s filled.  Can cram those 40 lb bags on the front cushion and then put them on the dock when not surfing.  wedge is 2 or 3 clicks from stowed.  Wave is more than I need for my limited skills but I am trying to put it to good use and get my 360's down along with the transfers.  When I just fill the hard tanks, it is still fun but I'm used to the big wave---and there is a significant difference.

Have the 2249 prop.  Plenty of throttle left at 11 mph but do run at 3900 to 4k rpm goofy, slightly higher regular.  not sure about gas...haven't paid too much attention.  Would like to get the rpm down.  May try the 2277 prop.... perhaps my dealer will let me use one.

Noise is an issue but not a big deal... installed the surfpipe at the dealer.  Must say that on hard turns it comes out of the water and sounds sweet...kind of miss that part of the sound.

 

 

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New delima as of today 2016 vs 2017

 

2017 about 6k less ,

G3.5 tower 2 speakers sad part although way better than previous G3 series basically the G4 lower part with a G3 upper.

Standard trailer

2:1 trans newer bigger props lower top end (although prop pitch may be able to go up to higher than 18 who knows the limit yet..  

Or 

2016 6k more

G4 tower quad speakers 

Upgraded trailer

1.76:1 trans smaller prop but perhaps little better top end and cruise.

Supposedly getting slightly better deal or litle more for the money than the 2017

Notes.. trailer pointless to me as I use 1hr 2x a year to drop in and take out. 

Bridge: G4 I think is 3-4" taller in water which may require lowering under bridge when water level is up. But most likely not when water is down would be very close probably only have 6" or less with my 2013 23lsv but 2014 and newer have higher freeboard so I don't even know the difference between mine and a new 25 so I may be stuck lowering part of the season regardless of 3.5 or 4 tower on the 25... anyone with knowledge in exact heights on 2013 23 and 2016/2017 G3.5 vs G4? 

Thoughts?  On price vs year all other options the same 450 hp etc..

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ahopkins22LSV

Id try to demo the 2017 to see how the new trans and prop is if I were you. But I love the G4 and the ptm racks so that is a tough one for me. Plus I love the colors of the 2016 you are looking at!

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On 7/29/2016 at 1:12 PM, The Hulk said:

you can hit 54-55mph with a 1.46? are you sure? 1.25 i totally get but 1.46 seems it woudl be impossible at least around 5500rpms?

No.  Not even close!  I can't even hit 40....39.8 is all she's got

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On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 6:09 PM, TenTwentyOne said:

 

It's because of surfing...... At surf speeds, the smaller props have a much larger amount of slip against the water, and are less efficient. You will typically be running higher rpms than you need to. Think about how, when surfing, you are running similar rpms to wakeboarding at 22mph...... Lots of slip when surfing. 

Swap out for a larger diameter, and you lose the torque ability with a higher ratio gearbox. Solution is to lower gearbox ratio.

 

I agree, this could be the reason they are changing gear ratios.  But I always viewed prop slip as a good thing in multipurpose tow boats.  For me, and I think it's typical, my surf, wakeboard and cruise (at 10, 20 and 30mph) are all at about the same 3k RPM.  If prop slip was greatly reduced at surf speed, my cruise speed would not be much more.

I would say it's all a matter of priorities, it you're a hard core surfer, and don't do much cruising, you optimize for surfing. 

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On 7/30/2016 at 2:09 PM, ahopkinsTXi said:

Id try to demo the 2017 to see how the new trans and prop is if I were you. But I love the G4 and the ptm racks so that is a tough one for me. Plus I love the colors of the 2016 you are looking at!

Exactly perfect combination of plusses and minuses to make a tough decision. 

Ahopkins u said there were 750s in that 2016? Rep said they were 550s? 

We cruise to resturants a lot and probably only surf 10% maybe 20% of the time if we're lucky now with infant and tods... lot of cruising or idling around the lake and sandbar action which makes me believe the 2016 might be best and I swore I'd never do a G3 again. But a G3.5 hmmm....

 

If that 2016 was around 4krpm with the high torque and others say the standard 2277 prop is ok  with bow sac that should come down a lot..even the 2401 may be a great option since its a 450hp?or something in between maybe at 15x16.75

what I can't understand is I would think the 2:1 would be higher rpms unless there is a substantial increase in prop pitch? I mean is there seriously that much prop slip when surfing? 

It would be interesting someday to see one of the prop companies do a test with equal variables and test the difference and cross over points such as higher prop speed smaller diameter higher pitch vs lower prop speed larger diameter less pitch or same etc.. ultimately it comes down to force so I'm sure there are equal points one way or the other but again it's all about slip I guess. 

Anyone have a 2017 with 2:1 yet surf rpms? Prop? On a 25lsv? 

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Update...was actually putting 400 in the bow. Tried 600 today and actually brought rpm down. Guessing more efficient with better angle? 

3700 goofy. 3800-3900 regular 

3 clicks from stowed. 

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