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2016 Raptor 410 23 LSV - is it enough?


hethj7

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Alright, lots of discussion on the 410 vs. 450, Raptor noise, etc., but now that a few of you have your new boats in the water, are we still debating if the base motor can push the 23LSV, or now that the Monsoon 350 is no more, is the consensus the 410 does the job without upgrading?  @IXFE I know you are running it, correct?  Yes, I hope to demo soon as we look towards getting in a newer boat, but am always up to hear the Crew's opinions.    

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There was a recent discussion thread that showed/proved that the '15 engines were all pretty much the same block with different programming in the ECU. The data came from CARB (California Air Resources Board) who has to certify all the engines in use in the People's Republic of California. Since your question is about performance and not HP, torque, or other specs, that data may not be relevant. Here's the thread, please read all of it:

I'm running a '15 23 LSV w/2315 prop and 3/4 MLS (I don't have a bow tank, but I have a bow triangle bag) and 2x 550 PnP in the back with the 350 engine and 1.5 v-drive/transmission. I usually have at least 4 adults and two kids in the boat, but have had quite a few more. I only had one issue where I couldn't get the boat on plane, but at the time I had two things going against me: 1. 1235 prop 2. shower hose had been knocked loose and the bilge was full of (hot) water. I run at either sea level (Sacramento River) or 1450' (Bullard's Bar reservoir).

Changing the prop is cheaper/easier than changing the engine, and it's like changing the wheels & tires on a car; there is a drastic difference to the overall performance. The '16 boats have a different set of options for engine and the v-drive/transmission is a 1.76:1 ratio for almost all options, but there is some great prop data from @nyryan2001 in this thread, look at the post dated '10 Dec 2014':

For what my family does on the water (wakeboard, surf, tow kids toys) I doubt I'd ever get anything more than the base engine; We don't ski behind a 23 LSV and the only time I'd run WOT is if there was a medical emergency. Good luck, and let us know what you decide on getting!

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I had read through those before and really the first one was focusing on the differences (or lack thereof) between the 410 and 450.   I was more curious how the 2016 base motor compares with the base motor of 2015 and earlier (i.e. the Monsoon GM 350 vs. the Monsoon Ford 410).   The Monsoon 410 seems to be about 350HP and 410 ft-lbs as best I can tell.   There was always a debate with the base Monsoon 350 on whether it was enough for the 23LSV.  I'm interested now with the Monsoon 410 as the base engine, does the debate go away now on whether or not the base engine option is enough in the 23 LSV or not?   

5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

410 is plenty for me at 700' elevation.

What weight do you typically run?  I'm only at 1000' and likely would never really do anything other than stock plus plug and play (maybe a bow bag to help things out).   Where I saw the 350 struggle was surfing and playing with the wedge with stock tanks and all plug and play full (no additional bow sack though).     

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Let me know what you find out. I'm going to be demoing a 22 VLX with the 410 at some point this summer. I'm also going to be demoing a T22 with the 350. Going to try to figure out what we want for next year. 

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18 minutes ago, hethj7 said:

I had read through those before and really the first one was focusing on the differences (or lack thereof) between the 410 and 450.   I was more curious how the 2016 base motor compares with the base motor of 2015 and earlier (i.e. the Monsoon GM 350 vs. the Monsoon Ford 410).   The Monsoon 410 seems to be about 350HP and 410 ft-lbs as best I can tell.   There was always a debate with the base Monsoon 350 on whether it was enough for the 23LSV.  I'm interested now with the Monsoon 410 as the base engine, does the debate go away now on whether or not the base engine option is enough in the 23 LSV or not?   

What weight do you typically run?  I'm only at 1000' and likely would never really do anything other than stock plus plug and play (maybe a bow bag to help things out).   Where I saw the 350 struggle was surfing and playing with the wedge with stock tanks and all plug and play full (no additional bow sack though).     

We surf 99.9% of the time. I run factory tanks plus 700 PnP Wakemaker bags and a 675 bow sack. Right now I'm running a 2249 prop but may change when I get enough data on here that is not conflicting with each other. I'm running too many RPM's IMO and need to get them down ~500 RPM's at surfing speed.

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51 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

We surf 99.9% of the time. I run factory tanks plus 700 PnP Wakemaker bags and a 675 bow sack. Right now I'm running a 2249 prop but may change when I get enough data on here that is not conflicting with each other. I'm running too many RPM's IMO and need to get them down ~500 RPM's at surfing speed.

I already switched to a 2277 from the 2249.  Completely wrong prop for 2016 with gear change.  Have the 450 and now easily hit 40 mph and my rpms down to 3600-3800 fully loaded surfing.  

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We are at 3300 ft. I demoed a t23 and put my900 sumos in it and added a 750 in the bow. It had a 1235 prop. Surfed great with plenty of power. It was a 15 with the 350 and the 1.76 to one ratio tranny. So I think the base motor would've fine, unless your at a really high altitude.

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Unfortunately, I think I'm pretty set against buying a 2015 or older with the Monsoon 350.   I know it gets the job done in most instances, but on a purchase like this, I don't want to be left wanting more power.  No offense to those that have it as it has a long history of solid performance, but when it comes to engines, I'm usually a more is better type of guy.  Perhaps if the perfect deal came along, I'd go with the 350, but our research is largely geared towards the upgraded engines.....except perhaps in the case of the 2016 Monsoon 410, which is why I'm trying to gather opinions on it.  

 

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So what I was saying was that if the 350 could push 4000 lbs with that transmission, I know the new410 with that transmission will be fine!

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4 hours ago, mikeo said:

I run at either sea level (Sacramento River) or 1450' (Bullard's Bar reservoir).

Mikeo, Bullards is about 500' higher than that.  current elevation is 1941.

 

 

Edited by shawndoggy
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3 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Mikeo, Bullards is about 500' higher than that.  current elevation is 1941.

 

 

My bad, I agree it crests at 1956' and is at 1941' now. I was typing too fast, but what's 500' among friends?

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I am also running the 2277 prop and it surfs just fine with 800 PNP's and a 650 bow sack. I get a top speed of 42 MPH in a VLX. I may even prop it up a bit more!

g

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8 hours ago, hethj7 said:

Alright, lots of discussion on the 410 vs. 450, Raptor noise, etc., but now that a few of you have your new boats in the water, are we still debating if the base motor can push the 23LSV, or now that the Monsoon 350 is no more, is the consensus the 410 does the job without upgrading?  @IXFE I know you are running it, correct?  Yes, I hope to demo soon as we look towards getting in a newer boat, but am always up to hear the Crew's opinions.    

I echo what @Ronnie said, as my setup is similar... '16 LSV 410 w/ 2277 (standard prop). The 6.2L "Raptor" with the new 1.72 gear reduction tranny is a powerful combo. Like Ronnie I'm running the WM 700 locker bags (which actually weigh 800 full) + the Sumo 650 triangle (which actually weighs over 700). The boat surfs easily without any hint of hitting the dreaded "speed ceiling."  RPM's while surfing are aprox 3700. 

To be honest, I'm not finding the engine to be that loud either. :blush:

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1 hour ago, chrisnorem said:

I already switched to a 2277 from the 2249.  Completely wrong prop for 2016 with gear change.  Have the 450 and now easily hit 40 mph and my rpms down to 3600-3800 fully loaded surfing.  

I have a 2016 23 lsv (410) with a 2249 at 1000' elevation and I hate this prop. My dealer had a 2401 15x17.75 .105. so we tried it. It reduced my rpm's and noise level significantly, and with just two of us testing it, I surfed with ballast and 2-750 lbs PnPs between 3000 and 3400 rpm's depending on wedge placement. I loved it and wanted to buy it, but when I had five adults in the boat and full ballast, we could not lock in our surf speed at 10.8...it maxed out somewhere in the 9 mph speed. Therefore, I think I will go with the 2277.

Edited by bbattiste247
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7 hours ago, IXFE said:

I echo what @Ronnie said, as my setup is similar... '16 LSV 410 w/ 2277 (standard prop). The 6.2L "Raptor" with the new 1.72 gear reduction tranny is a powerful combo. Like Ronnie I'm running the WM 700 locker bags (which actually weigh 800 full) + the Sumo 650 triangle (which actually weighs over 700). The boat surfs easily without any hint of hitting the dreaded "speed ceiling."  RPM's while surfing are aprox 3700. 

To be honest, I'm not finding the engine to be that loud either. :blush:

Exactly what I was going to type .. thanks for saving me from typing it IXFE!

@IXFE - do you have the surf pipe?  I do and surfing is soooo peaceful.  The only time I notice the sound is if I get on it.  WOT is about 41 w/ the pipe.

@hethj7 - Like IXFE said (verbatim) the 410 gets it done IMO.  FYI - I'm at less than 500ft.

Edited by pauley71
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