Cheap way to improve Fosgate system

[MLA]

a proper enclosure will stop the over excursion and fish-flop. This in conjunction with tuning should stop the burning smell. 

[BSUBU_Kris]

I added an AudioControl 3.2 EQ and then adjusted all of the amp gain controls.  The higher pre-amp voltage from the EQ made it to where all of the amp gain controls were close to none.  I also had a factory sub enclosure for my sub.  Prior to these changes the system was flat, not very loud, had a hissing type sound at higher volumes and you really couldn't hear the sub much.  After the EQ and tuning it was like an entirely new system and sounds really great.  I am sure the WS EQ would provide a similar result plus separate tone controls for the tower speakers.  I don't have any horns in my tower speakers so I am happy with the tone being the same with both the tower and in-boat speakers.

Good luck!  You shouldn't have to spend a tone of money for a good sounding system.

Kris

[David]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 10:42 PM, SnubNose said:

Do you guys think the burning smelling that i am getting is because of the way my amp is set up or does that have something to do with the way the sub is mounted? would the sealed box fix this? Its any time i have the Db on 30ish and the punch turned up even half way. 

You likely have two distinct problems. One is the lack of a correctly tuned enclosure. This leads to excessive and uncontrolled excursion with causes premature fatigue of the mechanical suspension parts. The other is too much power. Not that the amplifier is producing too much power for the particular subwoofer when correctly applied...but more so due to poor tuning and improper use. At the center of the sub's motor is a fine wire winding around a spool (voice coil). These individual windings are insulated from each other via an enamel coating. The smell that you detect is when this enamel coating begins to burn...from too much heat...from too much power. [When you detect the smell, damage has already begun]. As you burn more and more insulating enamel, a few windings begin to touch, which creates a more severe condition. And eventually, as this continues, some of the voice coil winding can slide off the spool and unravels like a slinky...resulting in a total failure. So until everything is dialed in correctly, allow that subwoofer to limp along at a moderate workload. This is not a matter of a cheap subwoofer. It's a matter of a subwoofer put to task incorrectly.             

[SnubNose]

1 hour ago, David said:

You likely have two distinct problems. One is the lack of a correctly tuned enclosure. This leads to excessive and uncontrolled excursion with causes premature fatigue of the mechanical suspension parts. The other is too much power. Not that the amplifier is producing too much power for the particular subwoofer when correctly applied...but more so due to poor tuning and improper use. At the center of the sub's motor is a fine wire winding around a spool (voice coil). These individual windings are insulated from each other via an enamel coating. The smell that you detect is when this enamel coating begins to burn...from too much heat...from too much power. [When you detect the smell, damage has already begun]. As you burn more and more insulating enamel, a few windings begin to touch, which creates a more severe condition. And eventually, as this continues, some of the voice coil winding can slide off the spool and unravels like a slinky...resulting in a total failure. So until everything is dialed in correctly, allow that subwoofer to limp along at a moderate workload. This is not a matter of a cheap subwoofer. It's a matter of a subwoofer put to task incorrectly.             

Can I dial things in without taking it in to the audio shop? If so what dials do I turn 

What do I turn freq, gain etc to? 

[SnubNose]

Wtf I just looked At my amps and all the factory do not remove or lose warranty stickers are on but the sub amp? I've never touched these amps and bought the boat brand new so it must have been dealer? It looks like gain is turned to 8 

[SnubNose]

11 hours ago, BSUBU_Kris said:

I added an AudioControl 3.2 EQ and then adjusted all of the amp gain controls.  The higher pre-amp voltage from the EQ made it to where all of the amp gain controls were close to none.  I also had a factory sub enclosure for my sub.  Prior to these changes the system was flat, not very loud, had a hissing type sound at higher volumes and you really couldn't hear the sub much.  After the EQ and tuning it was like an entirely new system and sounds really great.  I am sure the WS EQ would provide a similar result plus separate tone controls for the tower speakers.  I don't have any horns in my tower speakers so I am happy with the tone being the same with both the tower and in-boat speakers.

Good luck!  You shouldn't have to spend a tone of money for a good sounding system.

Kris

So you didn't get new enclosure? Just kept factory? 

 

 

Could someone guide me through adjusting my amps? I am here with boat now? Or does the audio professional need to be listening while adjusting ? 

 

 

[Josh4mc]

This is what I did. Copied from a previous post.

"

This is what I did with the same stock setup. Now keep in mind that I am a complete novice when it comes to boat stereos but I'm sure the experts will chime in soon.

When I checked the manufacture's gain setting they were set to the lowest possible setting. Crazy. First I put on a song with a lot of range, highs and lows. I then turned the head unit volume to 80% and slowly turned the gains up on each amp until I heard distortion. Once you hear distortion, back the gain down a little. Some of the amp gains are now turned all the way up because I never heard distortion.

I put the frequency settings to 80 or 100, can't remember. Cabins and towers(Icons as well) set to high pass and sub set to low pass. Could use feedback from the experts on the frequency settings though.

I bought a $2 tube of silicone sealant and sealed the entire inside and outside of the factory subwoofer box. Let it dry for a day and reinstalled. Sounds 100 times better than before now that the well known leaks are patched.

All n all I am really happy with the way the stock system sounds and I'm sure it will satisfy 2/3 of boaters out there."

[SnubNose]

29 minutes ago, Josh4mc said:

This is what I did. Copied from a previous post.

"

This is what I did with the same stock setup. Now keep in mind that I am a complete novice when it comes to boat stereos but I'm sure the experts will chime in soon.

When I checked the manufacture's gain setting they were set to the lowest possible setting. Crazy. First I put on a song with a lot of range, highs and lows. I then turned the head unit volume to 80% and slowly turned the gains up on each amp until I heard distortion. Once you hear distortion, back the gain down a little. Some of the amp gains are now turned all the way up because I never heard distortion.

I put the frequency settings to 80 or 100, can't remember. Cabins and towers(Icons as well) set to high pass and sub set to low pass. Could use feedback from the experts on the frequency settings though.

I bought a $2 tube of silicone sealant and sealed the entire inside and outside of the factory subwoofer box. Let it dry for a day and reinstalled. Sounds 100 times better than before now that the well known leaks are patched.

All n all I am really happy with the way the stock system sounds and I'm sure it will satisfy 2/3 of boaters out there."

so just pull the woofer out and spread that silicon everywhere ? What did the experts tell you to set the frequency to ? 

[Josh4mc]

Yes, pull the kick panel out, remove the sub woofer and apply silicone to all of the seems inside and out and where the speaker wire comes through. There were gaps all over. You want it as air tight as possible.

Never got a response on the frequency setting.

[SnubNose]

I called Rockford fosgate. 

Right now I have:

P400-2 set to towers 

P-500-2 bridged to sub

P400-4 to inboards 

they suggested setting them to:

P-400-2 

80 Hz High Pass

p-500-2

70/80 Hz Low pass

P-400-4

80hz high pass

So I did that then turned the volume to 25 DB and the punch knob 25% and treble/bass to middle range or 0 

now my gains are about:

p 400-2 6/7

p500-2 4/5

P400-4 6/7 

----------

its definitley a bit louder and more crisp but my sub got muddier sounding but it doesn't give burning smell now 

 

[minnmarker]

48 minutes ago, Josh4mc said:

Yes, pull the kick panel out, remove the sub woofer and apply silicone to all of the seems inside and out and where the speaker wire comes through. There were gaps all over. You want it as air tight as possible.

Never got a response on the frequency setting.

Crossover frequency will depend on the size/quality of your cabin speakers and the power driving them.  If 6.5" try starting with 100 Hz, with 8" try 80 Hz.

Disclaimer: This is a "ghetto" method and you can do much better with the right training and equipment.  You can get signal generation and frequency measuring apps for your phone.   MLA or David will probably have better advice.

Try: Start with crossover and "equalizer" disabled in your HU or other source and volume set to about 3/4.  Zone controls, if any, to max.  Amp gains at minimum.  Turn off the sub amp. Set the cabin amp to high pass. Set the frequency in the middle. Play a piece of music with some good bass range like drum intensive rock with a full drum set and bass guitar.  Turn gain up until you hear some distortion then turn down until you don't.  Have someone else get their head in the compartment and SLOWLY turn the frequency down until you, sitting in the listening spot, stop hearing better bass through the speakers. Turn the frequency up just a touch, maybe 1/10th turn.  Turn the sub amp on. Set the sub amp to low pass.  Set frequency in the middle.  Turn gain up until you hear some distortion then turn down until you don't. Set the frequency to the lowest (left).  Have someone else get their head in the compartment and slowly turn the frequency up until you stop hearing better bass through the speakers.  Tweek the amp gains again if you want to maximize volume as the speaker distortion point may have changed after setting the frequencies.  Stop.  Enjoy.

[MLA]

Of course sealing the factory enclosure is important, but IMO, the factory enclosure is too small. This is why i suggest a new custom enclosure. 

I would not attempt any tuning of the woofer or in-boats, until the woofer enclosure is resolved. What I would do, is turn the sub level knob down to no more than 25% and leave it there or lower. This will help protect the woofer but hopefully leave a little bass output.   

[SnubNose]

1 hour ago, MLA said:

Of course sealing the factory enclosure is important, but IMO, the factory enclosure is too small. This is why i suggest a new custom enclosure. 

I would not attempt any tuning of the woofer or in-boats, until the woofer enclosure is resolved. What I would do, is turn the sub level knob down to no more than 25% and leave it there or lower. This will help protect the woofer but hopefully leave a little bass output.   

Yeah I agree with the enclosure, but don't you think it's worth to have the right frequency and gain measurements at least ? 

My thinking that if my sub is already burn smelling it's probably already effed up already. 

The guys at fosgate didn't seem to think it really needed a different enclosure just proper tuning. 

I am now thinking of trying the sillicon route and sealing it. Seems like a super cheap option and will get the job done for my needs. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by SnubNose

[minnmarker]

At least seal it first before you do anything.  Then don't push it too hard.  If it's well sealed you might not smell it starting to fry.

[MLA]

2 minutes ago, SnubNose said:

Yeah I agree with the enclosure, but don't you think it's worth to have the right frequency and gain measurements at least ? 

My thinking that if my sub is already burn smelling it's probably already effed up already. 

The guys at fosgate didn't seem to think it really needed a different enclosure just proper tuning. 

I am now thinking of trying the sillicon route and sealing it. Seems like a super cheap option and will get the job done for my needs. 

A poor enclosure or compromised enclosure is going to lead to incorrect amp setting, resulting in re-tuning when the enclosure is address to a more permanent solution. If you choose to not address the enclosure, then tune it to your ear's liking. There are no proper setting for a bad box is what im trying to say. 

Send the fosgate guys pics of the boxes posted here as well as your own. If they still tell you the box is not the issue, RUN and run fast. 

[SnubNose]

14 minutes ago, MLA said:

A poor enclosure or compromised enclosure is going to lead to incorrect amp setting, resulting in re-tuning when the enclosure is address to a more permanent solution. If you choose to not address the enclosure, then tune it to your ear's liking. There are no proper setting for a bad box is what im trying to say. 

Send the fosgate guys pics of the boxes posted here as well as your own. If they still tell you the box is not the issue, RUN and run fast. 

Should the silicon seal make a good difference ? Even tho it's smaller than optimal. 

[David]

Sure, the silicon sealer will help for the short term and as long as the sub is used modestly, but is in no way a permanent solution. A sealer might be okay for a hair line gap but silicon has very little structural strength to keep a larger gap closed and sealed for very long. To have a real remedy the enclosure MUST be upgraded to the correct size and correct construction.  

[Josh4mc]

It improved mine a ton, hits harder and cleaner. It's not an ideal box but sealing will help and like you said it's a cheap fix for now. $2 at the hardware store.

[SnubNose]

Yeah I don't mind dropping $250 for a box but it's a pain to tow the boat 2 hours to the closest marine audio shop to have a box built. I'd rather wait till I bring it in for winter or maitenance to have the box done and just try the sealant for now. 

I shoulda done the box last winter duh! 

[shawndoggy]

3 minutes ago, SnubNose said:

Yeah I don't mind dropping $250 for a box but it's a pain to tow the boat 2 hours to the closest marine audio shop to have a box built. I'd rather wait till I bring it in for winter or maitenance to have the box done and just try the sealant for now. 

I shoulda done the box last winter duh! 

Where do you live?  I'd think almost any remotely competent mobile audio installer should be able to do this (and for the record my bar is very very very low).  Just explain that the box needs to have routed edges and needs to be sealed with fiberglass resin before installation.  you don't need a "marine audio shop." 

And because you are having trouble HEARING the damage you are doing the to the sub until you smell it, you need to get this done ASAP, before you smoke another driver.

[SnubNose]

31 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

Where do you live?  I'd think almost any remotely competent mobile audio installer should be able to do this (and for the record my bar is very very very low).  Just explain that the box needs to have routed edges and needs to be sealed with fiberglass resin before installation.  you don't need a "marine audio shop." 

And because you are having trouble HEARING the damage you are doing the to the sub until you smell it, you need to get this done ASAP, before you smoke another driver.

My boat is at lake Nacimento, California 

[shawndoggy]

isn't there an audio shop in paso robles? or slo? These guys? https://www.facebook.com/Ultimate-Car-Audio-Video-110738545606811/

[MLA]

1 hour ago, David said:

Sure, the silicon sealer will help for the short term and as long as the sub is used modestly, but is in no way a permanent solution. A sealer might be okay for a hair line gap but silicon has very little structural strength to keep a larger gap closed and sealed for very long. To have a real remedy the enclosure MUST be upgraded to the correct size and correct construction.  

This! ^^^^ Ive seen gaps large enough to put a pinkie finger through. Thats more than silicone sealer is intended for. You will find that "box" is stapled to the facade. Silicon as a seam calking, will not hold if the box continues to draw away from the facade as it warps over time. more gaps and leaks will appear over time i think. 

[David]

1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

And because you are having trouble HEARING the damage you are doing the to the sub until you smell it, you need to get this done ASAP, before you smoke another driver.

Shawn makes a very good point. You should be able to hear distortion long before you are doing the damage. I wish someone was there to listen and say, "Hear that? Hear the change? That's definitely wrong."

Your best chance of audibly detecting the subwoofer limits are when at rest. Then you have to trust that same level when you are underway, because when you are underway with the hull slapping the chop, with the wind and engine noise, you are less able to hear those same distortion thresholds.   

So until you get the box right, for the remainder of the season, gain the sub way down, and use no form of bass boost or equalization.    

  

[SnubNose]

1 hour ago, shawndoggy said:

isn't there an audio shop in paso robles? or slo? These guys? https://www.facebook.com/Ultimate-Car-Audio-Video-110738545606811/

I'll give them a call. Have you heard good things about them ?