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ct77

v drive and trans leak

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ct77

I'm hoping you guys can help a lonely Calabria owner lol!  2002 with Mec 350 MPI, velvet drive trans and Walter V drive.  I'm leaking vdrive oil from the bottom "pan" and will be addressing that. I've read a few threads on the subject and seems pretty straight forward.  Drop pan, replace gasket and put back together.  

Another issue is that I also noticed some trans fluid down in the prop shaft packing nut area. Now being that it's a v drive I'm assuming the shaft exist the Walter V drive then exits the hull, correct? So no trans fluid should be leaking near the shaft, right??

I felt some oil between item #2 and the v drive unit but couldn't tell if it was trans or gear oil, I've since put down paper towels to try and trace the leak.  Is it possible to leak trans fluid in that area? I've read about the shift linkage oring, it seems dry around that area.  The trans fluid may be a little high too, I'm going to change it and verify the amount taken out, it's hard to get every last drop out. 

Just looking for a little direction before I start ripping things apart, season is getting close here in Utah.

Almost all of the nuts #3 were slightly loose, so I tightened up but it still seems like it's weeping between #2 and the v drive unit.  Thanks up front for any guidance!  

 

vdrive_1.jpg

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formulaben
14 minutes ago, ct77 said:

Another issue is that I also noticed some trans fluid down in the prop shaft packing nut area. Now being that it's a v drive I'm assuming the shaft exist the Walter V drive then exits the hull, correct? So no trans fluid should be leaking near the shaft, right??

The transmission is directly above that shaft, so I see no reason why it couldn't leak onto the shaft and collect down there.

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wdr

I have previously replaced the sump gasket on my '06 Walter and I am working on my friends '01 Walter in his Tige with a 350 Mercruiser. Not much mechanical difference between them, visually yes. The Walters that year have 30w oil for lubrication with ATF in the trans so you will be able to immediately tell the difference. The sump gasket is an easy 2 wrench fix if you have the room between the sump and the hull. You can make a replacement gasket for it with some auto parts store gasket material if you have to. I agree with formulaben, most likely from the trans output shaft seal on #2, but I would clean everything up/off to better isolate the leak. That way if you do have to separate the two or pull the trans completely, you can take care of the VD while you are at it. 

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ct77
On 4/27/2016 at 4:48 PM, wdr said:

I have previously replaced the sump gasket on my '06 Walter and I am working on my friends '01 Walter in his Tige with a 350 Mercruiser. Not much mechanical difference between them, visually yes. The Walters that year have 30w oil for lubrication with ATF in the trans so you will be able to immediately tell the difference. The sump gasket is an easy 2 wrench fix if you have the room between the sump and the hull. You can make a replacement gasket for it with some auto parts store gasket material if you have to. I agree with formulaben, most likely from the trans output shaft seal on #2, but I would clean everything up/off to better isolate the leak. That way if you do have to separate the two or pull the trans completely, you can take care of the VD while you are at it. 

Good info thanks! After cleaning it up more and letting it set over weekend, I'm definitely weeping oil between the adapter plate (#2) and the v drive, but I swear it looks like ATF and 30w mixed! I'm going to pull the v-drive off, fix the sump gasket and put in a new input shaft seal.  Once I pull the v drive, I hope I can see if any ATF is leaking past the output shaft seal on the trans.  Do you have any tips for pulling v-drive and adapter plate or anything else I'll run into while doing this job? Your friends motor/trans/vdrive package sounds similar to my set up.  I don't see or feel any oil near bell housing either..

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wdr

Are you the first owner, probably not an uncommon occurrence for a previous newb owner to put 30w in an ATF hole! ? Are you seeing pink oil in the oil pan, you probably wouldn't though even if it gets changed regularly as the oil would be too dark. #1, don't screw around with draining either the VD or Trans through the drain plugs. Go straight to Harbor Freight (what I did) or some other place to buy a good or passable (in my case) vacuum pump. My 15.00 purchase works great for the trans fluid in both my Hurth VD and my transmission and is suitable for 30w in your VD. A better pump would work even better on the 30w oil, but probably isn't needed for only a once a year boat job unless you are planning on using it for doing brake bleeding. Brass fittings on all of the VD cooler lines, use flare nut wrenches if you have them and a box/open other wise. A crescent wrench IMO is only one step up from a rock, I hate those things! The VD sump to VD pump line should be the only line to pull on the VD. You shouldn't have to pull any other lines but the inlet/outlet lines #7 on the VD  so it should come out as a complete unit after you disconnect the shaft coupler bolts x4 and the 6 Trans to VD bolts. My Walter had some poor casting for the sump pan. I would plan on replacing the gasket regardless and with the VD out you can actually torque it to specs. Pull the upper VD cooling line plate cover #1 and clean out the sump while your at it as well. With it being an '01, you are probably going to pay hell trying to get the inlet and outlet rubber lines off of the brass elbows #7, you may have to slit them vertically to loosen them and there isn't much extra hose left to put it back on my friends Tige so be careful or you may end up buying a hose. As far the Trans goes I have never actually messed with one thank god, so I can't comment on that. But with the schematic it should be pretty simple, but I may be way off base on that having never done one. Replace the shaft packing seal while you are it, like a $5.00 fix back in '06. Hope this helps. Bill

Edited by wdr

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ct77

I ordered the parts from Harbor Marine in Washington state. Super nice and helpful, gave me a few pointers and said it's a pretty straight forward easy job.  I sure hope so!

Thanks wdr for the insight!

Since there may be some older Malibu's with same set up or others like me searching for info on off brand boats other than Malibu, I'll put some pics up and let you know how it goes.

 

 

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ct77

V-drive is off, very basic and straight forward.

Remove, electrical connections to sending unit on side of v drive

Remove water hoses from v drive

Remove 4 bolts on prop shaft, remove 6 bolts that hold v drive to adapter plate, #2 in picture above.

Pull straight back and off, weighs about 60-70lbs or so.  Light enough to hand over side of boat to a helper by holding the elbows for the water fittings.

Input shaft seal on walter was leaking for sure and my output shaft seal for trans was leaking. So I wasn't loosing my mind when I thought it looked like gear oil and ATF mixed!

The output shaft seal is pressed into the adapter plate. You need a 1-1/2" socket and impact to remove the yoke, then you'll have access to the other 6 bolts that hold adapter plate to the transmission. Gotta run home and grab the socket to proceed, I'll post pics soon.

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ct77

Got everything out of the boat on bench ready to change gaskets/seals. About an hour to get to this point, already had the floor up and some cushions removed.  Pics below of how it all came apart.

 

Jsut about to get started: 

boat_.jpg

 

After removing the bolts in the order I mentioned in previous post, the V drive can be pulled back and removed, this is what you'll see once removed

boat_2.jpg

Impact wrench made quick work of the 4 bolts holding the spline'd yoke together. You'll hold the nut through the rectangle access hole you see with a 9/16" end wrench

boat_3.jpg

Once the spline'd piece is removed,  you'll see the 1-1/2" nylok nut.  Impact wrench to get it off.

boat_4.jpg

After you remove the nut, you'll slide the other half of the yoke out of adapter plate and this is what it looks like

boat_6.jpg

 

Looking at the output shaft, there are six more bolts to remove. The adapter plate will come right off after removing them.  The seal for the shaft is in the adapter plate, so you can take if off and remove on your bench

boat_5.jpg

 

Adapter plate removed, completely disassembled now.  

boat_7.jpg 

Pic of the output shaft seal in the adapter plate. Simple seal remover tool will pop this right out.

boat_8.jpg

Pic of the V drive on my motorcycle engine stand lol, waiting on parts, should be here tomorrow.

boat_9.jpg

 

 

Edited by ct77

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Shastasurf

Did you pull the gas tank to have room to pull off vdrive?

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ct77
3 hours ago, Shastasurf said:

Did you pull the gas tank to have room to pull off vdrive?

Fortunately there was plenty of room with tank in. It's a 60 gallon tank but there's 2 feet between it and v drive. 

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blk93jeepzj

Like mentioned by @wdr now is the easiest time to replace the shaft packing.  

Edited by blk93jeepzj
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ct77
On 5/5/2016 at 10:53 AM, blk93jeepzj said:

Like mentioned by @wdr now is the easiest time to replace the shaft packing.  

So I almost didn't check the shaft packing since I put the Gortex rope stuff in a couple years ago, but my intuition got the best of me. Glad I did... My boat uses a white nylon "stuffing box" rather than a brass one. It was cracked on one side and looks like it got hot at some point. The shaft itself looks fine though. I ordered up a OJ dripless kit and will be putting that on before I bolt up the V-drive. 

Since the v drive hangs off the trans, will it be necessary to align the engine and prop shaft? I assume that since I didn't touch the engine or trans that I should be able to bolt everything back up as it was?? 

Any tips on installing the dripless kit? Since the v drive is still out I don't think I'll need to remove the shaft, just slide the parts on and install the T fitting in a water line.  

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wdr

Honestly, your boat being an '02 I would be very surprised if it didn't need an engine alignment. I just got done with my friends '01 Tige prop shaft replacement and it is a wonder that thing didn't vibrate the output shaft seals out of every oriface as bad as the alignment was.? The biggest problem with not getting it checked/aligned is that you will see seal failure in the OJ kit at some point and depending on how bad it is the failure may manifest some where more expensive. It is a major PITA and the way wrong time of the year to take it in, but at a minimum I would call a reputable mechanic and get a 2nd opinion. And if you have to pull the prop shaft coupler vertically or laterally to line it up with the VD output flange I would just go ahead and make the appointmeant. On the OJ kit so long as the shaft coupler is off and you have room to slide the plastic housing assembly on you should be good to go. I would put the housing on first then tape up the prop shaft threads before you slide the seal on the shaft and into the housing then insert the snap ring. That way the threads won't bugger up the ID of the seal. An odd thing I experienced when I replaced the OEM seal was that the new seal pretty much fell into the housing and now I am experiencing some leakage. I will probable pull it and seal the OD of the seal to stop the leak. JM2C Bill.

 

 

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ct77

Just about done buttoning up everything. The OJ kit went on without any issues.  WDR, thanks again for your advise! The OJ kit comes with an aluminum installation tool now, so it slides on the end of the shaft covering up the threads. 

My prop shaft to v-drive alignment was the same as it was prior to starting. Shaft slid right up to the coupler and the gap is even all the way around, no more than .003 with feeler gauge.

The OJ kit came with a 1" T and the clear hose to run water to it. I've read where some people use this and T into the lines going to the exhaust manifolds.  I'd like to run it straight to the transmission cooler, shorter run less chance of the clear hose getting hot, etc.  Below is a pic of my trans cooler, however where most people have a "drain plug" there's a pressure sensor installed. Do you think it will be OK to get water supply from this spot with the appropriate fittings to keep the sensor and install the hose to the OJ?

boat_11.jpg

boat_10.jpg

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wdr

"On my boat", my only concern with using the drain plug on the trans cooler would be that it is ahead of the trans cooler screen meaning all manner of crud would go directly into the shaft cooling hose. Probably not a big concern, but if the hole gets blocked off it might damage the shaft seal. Doubtful, as I have read where those seals were good for 600 hrs running dry, but I am no mechanic. If you pull the inlet hose on the inlet side of the cooler, you can stick you finger in and feel the screen I am talking about. This is also the location where everything the raw water pump picks up collects, including impeller vanes and shuts off the water flow to the block and puts you into the limp mode i.e. Idle speed only. Now you know where to start looking! ? Having said that and looking at your sensor which I assume will function normally so long as there is a steady flow of water to it, then I would say that your proposed plan to plumb into it would work. That is the recommended location to plumb into that I have been reading in other articles. It will probably never be an issue for you in that location, but If you have the parts and ability to plumb into the block, I would opt for that location first. Bill

Edited by wdr

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ct77
20 hours ago, wdr said:

"On my boat", my only concern with using the drain plug on the trans cooler would be that it is ahead of the trans cooler screen meaning all manner of crud would go directly into the shaft cooling hose. Probably not a big concern, but if the hole gets blocked off it might damage the shaft seal. Doubtful, as I have read where those seals were good for 600 hrs running dry, but I am no mechanic. If you pull the inlet hose on the inlet side of the cooler, you can stick you finger in and feel the screen I am talking about. This is also the location where everything the raw water pump picks up collects, including impeller vanes and shuts off the water flow to the block and puts you into the limp mode i.e. Idle speed only. Now you know where to start looking! ? Having said that and looking at your sensor which I assume will function normally so long as there is a steady flow of water to it, then I would say that your proposed plan to plumb into it would work. That is the recommended location to plumb into that I have been reading in other articles. It will probably never be an issue for you in that location, but If you have the parts and ability to plumb into the block, I would opt for that location first. Bill

Thanks again Bill!

I talked to OJ this morning too and they said the trans cooler is an acceptable location like you mentioned as well. I like that location since it will be short run of hose and it won't be near anything that gets hot and for sure "cool" water. I ordered a couple brass fittings from Mc Master Carr and they'll be here tomorrow which will allow me to T the pressure sensor and install the barb fitting for the water supply to the OJ shaft seal.  I'll get it buttoned up and hopefully start her on the hose later this week.  

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ct77

I know we've all searched our related boat issues and found something helpful, then thread just ends without final results or cure or whatever.  I'm hoping this will help any one else having a leaky v drive in the future.  I originally did the out put shaft seal on the transmission and the input shaft seal and oil sump pan gasket on v drive. I was pretty certain these were the only spots leaking. Well I was wrong... After re-installing everything and testing on water I found the v drive was now weeping from the out put shaft gasket on both sides of unit. It wasn't bad and maybe I could've left it but I just can't roll like that.  So I pulled the v drive back off, in 30 minutes this time, and replaced every gasket and seal on the thing.  When I ordered the parts earlier, I ordered the whole gasket and seal kit so I had the parts I needed to get job done.   After pulling the v drive from boat, I stripped the thing down to what you see here

boat_15.jpg

boat_14.jpg

After you remove the out put shaft covers, you'll find a special 4 prong spanner nut and lock washer.  The socket that fits this is pretty much impossible to find, so I had to get a little cave man'ish and use my air hammer to blip it off.  2-3 quick hits got it off without much fuss, I'm not suggesting this is the right way to remove it, but it worked for me.   I also had to make a "holder" so I could get the nut off with out spinning the shaft. I drilled two holes in a piece of 1" x 1" steel I had laying around, bolted that to the flange so when I "loosened" the nut the bar pressed against my work bench, worked great!

Once the nut is removed you can drive the shaft out of the housing by striking the center of shaft with a punch, making certain to not damage the threads, that would really suck...

After the shaft is removed the lower gear and tapered bearing will come right out.  

At this point you can install the out put shaft seal into the cover and start re-assembling the unit.  I used permatex Hi-tack gasket sealant as Harbor Marine strongly advised not using any type of RTV silicone.  A thin coat of this on each surface will hold the gasket in place and create a good seal. Getting the tunnel housing back over the u-joints was a little difficult as you had to turn the housing and u joints at the same time so everything would line up and drop the housing on to the studs.  Continue installing each cover with new gasket. I pasted a couple links  down at bottom to Walter manuals, print out both as one has more details on installing parts while the other has more info on part names and diagram. 

Pay attention to the oil pump directions, not difficult, just read so you understand how to line everything up. There's a go/no go so you'll know if it's not right. I had to read a couple times but it worked out.  pic below: 

boat_16.jpg

 

Another thing is the out put shaft, you have to temporarily install the front cover while you drive the shaft back in, if you don't you'll just push the bearings out as you push the shaft in. I did it wrong and had to re-read the manual, got it right second time.  

The guys in the transmission department at Harbor Marine were super helpful and answered the few questions I had without any attitude! Great to deal with and buy parts from, they had everything in stock. 

I also plumed in my OJ dripless kit and it worked perfect. Picked up a few brass fitting and used the trans cooler to tap into.  Cool water flowing to the shaft 

boat_17.jpg

boat_18.jpg

 

 

I hope this helps someone else down the line. If you have questions don't hesitate to ask.  All back together and lake tested

boat_19.jpg

 

http://www.dublerfamily.com/Regina_oceani/Manuals/Drive%20Train%20and%20Fuel%20System/V-Drive/Walter%20V-Drive%20Installation%20and%20Service%20Manual.PDF

http://www.tigeowners.com/downloads/walter_vdrive.pdf

Edited by ct77
added photo

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skurfer

Nice work! I'm tackling a v-drive as we speak, mine is much easier, tho. R and R :)

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ct77
12 hours ago, skurfer said:

Nice work! I'm tackling a v-drive as we speak, mine is much easier, tho. R and R :)

Yeah they go on and off pretty quick! What caused you to have to replace it, different gear ratio?

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skurfer

Complete failure. Warranty. Two of the nuts were tucked up under and a PITA to get off, but new one is in. Water test tomorrow. Fingers crossed. 

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ct77
14 hours ago, skurfer said:

Complete failure. Warranty. Two of the nuts were tucked up under and a PITA to get off, but new one is in. Water test tomorrow. Fingers crossed. 

Wow crazy! There's so little to them, just a couple gears, bearings, oil pump and the u-joint.  I'm surprised that it would fail.  You should be good now though, good luck!

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