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kerpluxal

How many Amps should I use

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kerpluxal

My 23 lsv came with 3 amps (1 for cabin, 1 for tower, one for sub) and has the factory wetsounds upgrade (420 and pro 80 tower speakers). I blew my tower and sub amp. Should I invest in 2 separate amps again (one 2 channel and one one channel) or by one 4 channel amp and bridge into a 3 channel?

Pros and cons for each please :)

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jonyb

You'll need to be more specific with exactly what speakers are in your boat.

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kerpluxal

You'll need to be more specific with exactly what speakers are in your boat.

stock rockford fosgates components...

1 channel amp (P500-2 now fried) for the rockford PM210S4B sub

2 Channel amp (P400-2 now fried) for the wetsounds pro 80s tower speakers

4 channel amp (did not see which one it is since it works) for the 8 6.5" PM2652 (don't plan on doing anything at this time with these speakers and amp)

Edited by kerpluxal

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Murphy8166

I have two arc audio KS 300.4's that would make sense for the towers and in boats. Same as WS SYN amps

They are in the classifieds.

Edited by Murphy8166

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Murphy8166

I'd do one for the tower, one for in boats and one for the sub.

I know that jonyb has a matching arc audio is 300.2 that would do great on the sub

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David

kerpluxal,

Amplifiers rarely blow. Two amplifiers failing on a single boat is even rarer. Any idea as to why the amplifiers failed?

It would certainly be a concern before I planned for my replacements.

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MLA

Pro-80s? how old is your boat? Dont recall Wet Sounds, other that the 6x9 HLCD being an option until the the Icon/Rev offerings on the 2015. ow, if you are referring to Rev-8s and your boat is a 2015, why is this not covered under warranty?

1st off, I agree 100% with David. Two dead amps is suspicious, so that needs to be looked into prior to mounting up new gear.

To replace your current dead amps, there are plenty of options. A 4 chnl bridged to a single pair of tower speakers delivering 200-300 watts to each and a 2 chnl or mono delivering 400-600W @ 4 for the woofer.

Or, re-purpose the current P400.4 from the in-boats to the tower speakers, and get a 5 or 6 chnl amp that will drive the in-boats and sub.

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justgary

Just for kicks, have you checked for blown fuses? Your equipment may have fuses inside the case as well.

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kerpluxal

Pro-80s? how old is your boat? Dont recall Wet Sounds, other that the 6x9 HLCD being an option until the the Icon/Rev offerings on the 2015. ow, if you are referring to Rev-8s and your boat is a 2015, why is this not covered under warranty?

1st off, I agree 100% with David. Two dead amps is suspicious, so that needs to be looked into prior to mounting up new gear.

To replace your current dead amps, there are plenty of options. A 4 chnl bridged to a single pair of tower speakers delivering 200-300 watts to each and a 2 chnl or mono delivering 400-600W @ 4 for the woofer.

Or, re-purpose the current P400.4 from the in-boats to the tower speakers, and get a 5 or 6 chnl amp that will drive the in-boats and sub.

Boat is a 2010.... Manual says Pro 80s... I know they got hot..... was a hot Texas day, music was playing for about 7 hours, then the amps started cutting in and out and could smell electrical burn ... shut system off for 30 minutes and was fine for rest of day (3hrs).... then everything was fine for a couple of months... audio shop stated that class ab amps are prone to this and should upgrade to class d..... another installer stated it was common here and should run computer fans on them

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kerpluxal

Just for kicks, have you checked for blown fuses? Your equipment may have fuses inside the case as well.

Just pulled the amps out today.... the lights are flickering on both and when looking in the compartment with the system on... we noticed smoke and the tower amp was extremely hot.... from my understanding, the rockford fosgates do not have internal fuses... but worth to open them up since they are kaput ;)

No internal fuses

Edited by kerpluxal

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justgary

Just pulled the amps out today.... the lights are flickering on both and when looking in the compartment with the system on... we noticed smoke and the tower amp was extremely hot.... from my understanding, the rockford fosgates do not have internal fuses... but worth to open them up since they are kaput ;)

Hmmm, I guess you did blow them. The amps are likely just modules that you can buy and change out if you are any good at soldering.

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kerpluxal

Hmmm, I guess you did blow them. The amps are likely just modules that you can buy and change out if you are any good at soldering.

Rockford will fix them for $113.00 each... just did not if I should just upgrade differently

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MLA

7 hours of play could certainly put the amps in a low voltage situation as well as thermal shut down. The thing about thermal shutdown, is that an amp will typically go off and stay off until it cools rather than cutting in and out. You will also get a protect light thats illuminated. Once the amp cools, it will return to normal operation. this is a design feature not a fault. What you describe, other than the electrical smell, sounds more like a low voltage scenario.

I would consider pulling the covers on those 2 suspect amps and checking out the board. Electrical smell will usually leave a sing that something got that hot for you to have smelled it. If you see sings of burning, then you know the amps need repaired/replaced.

Given the age of those amps, for a couple hundred more over that repair cost, you can get comparable wattage class-D amps that would be nearly plug and play.

A kicker KMX400.2 would drive the woofer and a KXM400.4 bridged to the Pro-80s for 200W rms to each. Or, a Wet Sounds HTX-6 for the woofer and in-boats and re-purpose the existing 4 chnl to the tower.

If 7 hours at the party cove is routine, I would reevaluate the house bank Ah. More Ah means longer play time, but also you are cycling more/larger battery shallower than less or smaller battery. They last longer.

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David

Good points by MLA.

Low voltage is particularly hard on amplifiers. You should never run your stereo bank below 11.8 volts at the absolute lowest. And 7 hours is a very long time.

Oftentimes that electronic smell (whether speakers or amplifiers) is the over-heating of the insulating enamel on a winding in some form, as in the voice coil on a speaker or the transformer on an amplifier.

Amplifiers may still play after being driven too hard but overheating can have a permanent affect on the performance. So that smell is always a bad thing. One of the reasons I don't like to see people buy "demo" products as they can be abused by some consumer, taken on trade, and then resold as an 'almost new' product. It may be better to purchase used from an individual who is an adult that takes good care of his possessions.

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kerpluxal

7 hours of play could certainly put the amps in a low voltage situation as well as thermal shut down. The thing about thermal shutdown, is that an amp will typically go off and stay off until it cools rather than cutting in and out. You will also get a protect light thats illuminated. Once the amp cools, it will return to normal operation. this is a design feature not a fault. What you describe, other than the electrical smell, sounds more like a low voltage scenario.

I would consider pulling the covers on those 2 suspect amps and checking out the board. Electrical smell will usually leave a sing that something got that hot for you to have smelled it. If you see sings of burning, then you know the amps need repaired/replaced.

Given the age of those amps, for a couple hundred more over that repair cost, you can get comparable wattage class-D amps that would be nearly plug and play.

A kicker KMX400.2 would drive the woofer and a KXM400.4 bridged to the Pro-80s for 200W rms to each. Or, a Wet Sounds HTX-6 for the woofer and in-boats and re-purpose the existing 4 chnl to the tower.

If 7 hours at the party cove is routine, I would reevaluate the house bank Ah. More Ah means longer play time, but also you are cycling more/larger battery shallower than less or smaller battery. They last longer.

Good points by MLA.

Low voltage is particularly hard on amplifiers. You should never run your stereo bank below 11.8 volts at the absolute lowest. And 7 hours is a very long time.

Oftentimes that electronic smell (whether speakers or amplifiers) is the over-heating of the insulating enamel on a winding in some form, as in the voice coil on a speaker or the transformer on an amplifier.

Amplifiers may still play after being driven too hard but overheating can have a permanent affect on the performance. So that smell is always a bad thing. One of the reasons I don't like to see people buy "demo" products as they can be abused by some consumer, taken on trade, and then resold as an 'almost new' product. It may be better to purchase used from an individual who is an adult that takes good care of his possessions.

Thank you both for your inputs... When it went into thermal shutdown that day, they were cutting in and out and not shutting down till I turned the system off.... 7 hours in a Party Cove???? not my style lol... 7 hrs of riding :rockon: .... I never shut the system down in that time period... but the volume was up and down the whole time.... from my understanding the class ab amps are always on regardless of volume and are only off when the system is off...(beach is for when the sun goes down ;) ) I checked the voltage at each amp with boat . not running on trailer and I was receiving 11.8 volts at each amp.... I am going to see what the amps do individually on the bench and come up with a conclusion at that time... I did talk to another installer at the boat show (does all the custom stereos for SMG) and he also stated that the factory amps tend to fail over time.... I am calling him today to see his price on 2 wetsounds amp and a new sub (don't need it... but the one he was demoing at the show sounded way better than my)

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shawndoggy

11.8 @ the amps? Seems like you need to evaluate your battery/charging/alternator setup too... your batteries are toast if they aren't holding a charge of at least 12.4v. Could well be that your weak charging system is putting the strain on everything else. Factory amps shouldn't be killing the batteries on a boat while it's running.

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David

kerpluxal,

You have to make a distinction between several of these voltage issues.

Naturally the voltage will dip across the amplifier(s) primary terminals when the system is being played hard. Under 12 volts on heavy bass transients wouldn't surprise me.

But the most important voltage reading related to your system capacity and usage would be the battery resting/static voltage after a long play duration at rest and without the boat running. In that case you are wanting to always maintain a voltage of 11.8 volts bare minimum. If you are not then your battery capacity is not up to your usage, or you do not have an adequate method for serving your battery(s). Then, it is important to FULLY recharge the battery as soon as possible immediately after usage.

If you have a static 11.8 volts without being at rest, and after playing the stereo only while running, then you have more of a serious problem, as stated by Shawn.

You can't blame it entirely on the low efficiency of Class AB amplifiers.

The statement about Class AB "always on" is a misconception as compared to Class D or most other amplifier types, as applied to your issue. All contemporary amplifiers have a pulse width power supply that dictates power consumption is very low at idle with power consumption sliding as power output is increased. The real and simple issue is that Class AB consumes a lot more current in order to deliver the same power regardless of how high or low the power level is.

So Class D amplifiers would be a 60% improvement in efficiency. However, I would look deeper into your voltage issue while making that change.

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MLA
from my understanding the class ab amps are always on regardless of volume and are only off when the system is off..

If the head-unit is on and amp has an illuminated power light, then the amp is "ON", regardless of its power supply type. All amp will have a low power consumption at idle when there is no volume.

I am calling him today to see his price on 2 wetsounds amp and a new sub (don't need it... but the one he was demoing at the show sounded way better than my

Not trying to talk you out of an upgrade or that installer out of a sale, but if your woofer is in its original factory state, the problem is not actually the woofer, but the execution. Swap just the woofer and do nothing else, and i'll bet that new $280 woofer will not sound like it did in the demo booth.

Point is, make sure you get the full picture of what needs to be done to get your moneys worth. You will likely need a properly constructed enclosure and a good tune on the amp.

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kerpluxal

If the head-unit is on and amp has an illuminated power light, then the amp is "ON", regardless of its power supply type. All amp will have a low power consumption at idle when there is no volume.

Not trying to talk you out of an upgrade or that installer out of a sale, but if your woofer is in its original factory state, the problem is not actually the woofer, but the execution. Swap just the woofer and do nothing else, and i'll bet that new $280 woofer will not sound like it did in the demo booth.

Point is, make sure you get the full picture of what needs to be done to get your moneys worth. You will likely need a properly constructed enclosure and a good tune on the amp.

He did confirm that with me that the enclosure for the sub is below par and would need to be updated as well.... ... I think I will go back to the power this weekend and ensure what voltage I am reading at the batteries... then at the terminals.... and any differentiation between battery 1, 2, & both.... Still going to power amps on bench and see if I have the same issue as in boat.... Both batteries are not even 1 year old but I will still check.....

I do greatly appreciate all of the help y'all been providing and will post my findings from the weekend

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kerpluxal

11.8 @ the amps? Seems like you need to evaluate your battery/charging/alternator setup too... your batteries are toast if they aren't holding a charge of at least 12.4v. Could well be that your weak charging system is putting the strain on everything else. Factory amps shouldn't be killing the batteries on a boat while it's running.

After recalling the testing I did that day... the 11.8 volts on a good battery is plausible.

I run battery 1 one day and battery 2 the next day....

On the day of testing the boat was on battery 2, and was not charging battery 1. I have a ronix 3800 pump that I switched to alligator clips due to the current that it draws (friend burnt the cigarette lighter plugin with his boat). When filling/draining additional ballast with the ronix pump, I clip it on battery 1... this will explain the 11.8 volts of the battery when testing the amps (on battery 1)...

Before I proceed, I am going to test all connections this weekend after boat has been running on battery 1&2... I will also test with boat running and boat off.

Thank you for your input :cheers:

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kerpluxal

Checked amps on bench and come to find out, the tower amp is the only fried amp.... Checked voltage in boat on water and no issues (both batteries when boat is off was over 12.0 volts and running were over 13 volts). also checked power supply wires to the amp and had same voltage as at batteries... my conclusion is I did fry my tower amp. I will be further investigating if sub is blown or if I fried the wires between amp sub....

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MLA

Do you know what the tenth of a volt level over 12.0 the batteries were? May not sound like a like, but it really is. 12.8 is considered 100% and 12.0 is 75% discharged. a 3-4 tenths of a volt makes a huge difference in the state of a battery when diagnosing an issue.

Next step is to look for a possible external factor in the tower speaker circuit that could have lead to the failed amp.

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David

kerpluxal,

Not to harp on the same issue, or maybe I do want to harp on the same issue, but checking for the true battery voltage should always be after any surface charge from an elevated charger or alternator voltage has had time to fully dissipate. Some battery manufacturers say this can take as long as 4 hours, which is a bit lengthy by my experience. Playing the audio system at rest for any period and before any charge is applied will serve to gain the same result.

So 12.0 volts at rest or 13.0 volts with the engine running WHILE the audio system is being played at a high level doesn't surprise me. But those same numbers while the audio system is OFF is on the low side. In that case it could be an indication of the battery condition or a shore charging routine that isn't getting it done.

So make the distinctions based on the above and keep an eye on things. Also, take a measurement directly at the battery terminals and check this against the dash gauge. The multimeter should be accurate. The gauge is often off a bit.

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kerpluxal

kerpluxal,

Not to harp on the same issue, or maybe I do want to harp on the same issue, but checking for the true battery voltage should always be after any surface charge from an elevated charger or alternator voltage has had time to fully dissipate. Some battery manufacturers say this can take as long as 4 hours, which is a bit lengthy by my experience. Playing the audio system at rest for any period and before any charge is applied will serve to gain the same result.

So 12.0 volts at rest or 13.0 volts with the engine running WHILE the audio system is being played at a high level doesn't surprise me. But those same numbers while the audio system is OFF is on the low side. In that case it could be an indication of the battery condition or a shore charging routine that isn't getting it done.

So make the distinctions based on the above and keep an eye on things. Also, take a measurement directly at the battery terminals and check this against the dash gauge. The multimeter should be accurate. The gauge is often off a bit.

I honestly don't think I have a charging or battery issue... I did use a multi meter to check at batteries and at amp terminals... with boat off bat 1 was at 12.4 volts (and my mistake for checking right when we started filling bags again....) and bat 2 at 12.6 volts... When boat was running I had 13.8 at batteries... all mentioned numbers were the same at amp terminals... I am testing the sub speaker this weekend to see if it is either the sub or wires connecting sub (the electrical burning smell that I smelt was prominent at the helm where the sub is located).... Once this weekend is over and I completely understand what issues I have and what needs to be replaced... I will follow up with how to spend my money :)

Thank you again for your advice :thumbup:

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