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AdrockTT

2015 LSV Surf - PNP WM 800 sacs - Which bow ballast setup for ideal surf? Options for lead? Able to avoid bow sac?

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AdrockTT

Hello all,

I'm soon to take possession of a 2015 Malibu 23 LSV and am planning to add the Wakemakers custom 800 bags to the rear lockers for the PNP system (per the general consensus here - unless I'm totally off).

The whole goal of the boat is to maintain button push/plug and play surf WITHOUT having to fill sacs!! Typical passenger crew is 6-8 most likely (could be 4-12 people on occasion).
Is this feasible or am I still stuck filling sacs??

What would be the recommended approach to fine tune the best setup, esp for the potential need for bow weight?

-Current idea is to buy 800s for rear lockers, see how it runs on stock bow ballast vs go ahead and get 150-300 Lbs of lead to move around in the bow.

-Move around people (or extra sacs I alread have) to troubleshoot the wave and figure out ballast needs

-Buy lead as needed to provide the "bare minimum" bow weight addition and be able to have a solid surf wave with just a button press...

Sounds like the best lead positioning is over the factory hard tank? Is 150-300 a solid starting range?

Alternatively, we could use hard plumbed/wired sacs in the bow, if necessary, though I'd hate to lose the space...

Any thoughts/suggestions appreciated. (Yes I've read all relevant threads about surfing the newer LSVs as a preface). I understand there is some controversy so I'm very interested in hearing your experiences.

Is there a consensus on surfgate relative to the water surface? Thoughts on asymmetric weighting to provide a bit of port list (I'm a regular surfer)? Lighter/efficient setups (I demo'd a "not bad" wave on Stock+550s PNP in lockers) vs more weight?

Thanks so much!

-Adrock

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IXFE

You asked A LOT of questions there. I'll give you my perspective.

The first thing you need to understand is that those Wakemaker bags are NOT 800 lbs. Wakemakers told me directly that they filled them to capacity on a scale and they were 1,100 lbs. They told me that inside the boat, they are probably more like 1,000 lbs. I believe them (more on that below).

So, if you fill those bags to capacity and run the PW2 and have a bunch of peeps sitting back there (which is where people like to sit to watch surfing), you are running A LOT of weight in the rear. You need to run significant bow weight to even things out. It will help lower the nose of the boat as well as lengthen the wave. If you don't like this, then don't run the wedge. It's that simple.

My recommendation to you is plumb in a 1K bow triangle. That's what I have and I love it. It's easy to detach the bag & hose and stow them away when we are not using it. But when you want it, you want it. And a few hundred pounds of lead is no substitute.

Now... here's why I KNOW those Wakemaker bags are easily 1k lbs. I have all three of my bags plumbed to the same pumps using the same plumbing (see my pumps below). The 1K bow bag fills and empties just a bit faster than those Wakemaker bags. That's why I thought to even ask Wakemakers about the true weight. I knew something was up.

Here's the 1k bow triangle empty...

7918_zpso19weswp.jpg

Here it is full...

20150618_103832_zpstygndsbd.jpg

Here is where the bow bag plugs in. It's hidden up under the cup holders in the bow....

20150501_155814_zpstjyqi5rq.jpg

Here's the Wakemakers locker bags. No way these are only 800 lbs...

20150618_103845_zpswfzeobmh.jpg

Here are my pumps and my switches. Yeah, I didn't use the factory Plug N Play. Each of my bags gets it's own reversible pump...

20150428_155304_zpsmg5ptgyr.jpg

20150428_155908_zpszwrfmqxl.jpg

Here's what the boat looks like on the water with all that weight... almost 4,500lbs. not including gas or people. It's unbelievable how well this boat handles weight. The platform isn't even underwater...

20150618_104145_zpsqhqpucvw.jpg

And here's a few shots of the wave it makes. The first shot shows the HEIGHT while the second shows the LENGTH...

img_0881_zpsqaggxan1%201_zpsfqsumsgf.jpg

Capture_zpsqoeequkv.jpg

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SmoothWaterMan

My opinion is that 800's are too much weight in the rear. Actually, my opinion is that even full 750's can be too much in the rear unless you are running a bow sack of substantial size, such as the 1000 lb triangle, or a basic 750 rectangle. With the bow weighted, you can weight the back, but people tend to sit in the back anyhow, so unless you run with a minimal crew, there always seems to be plenty of aft weight.

Now each to their own, but I have no time issue with the rear plug and play (now that they are 1 1/8") filling and emptying using the factory pumps. I would like a factory offering for a plug 'n play or larger tank in the bow for sure, as many on hear have mentioned. Most customers really don't want to be filling and emptying a loose sack in the bow.

Peter

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jb 156

has anyone thought of a factory bow tank delete and running a fat sac in the place of it. It just seems like a lot of space for a little amount of ballast.

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AdrockTT

Thank to both of you for the input. IXFE your wave looks awesome! If you don't mind, what was the total cost on pumps/install/front sac for that ballast setup? Is there a specific reason not to use the factory ballast pumps for filling the rears?

Sounds like the plumbed front bow triangle with the WM 800s out back is going to be the best bet long term.

Would the plan of getting the larger 800s as the initial PNP sac purchase and running them both partially full w people in the bow during surfing be a good temporizing measure until I'm able to sort out the plumbing idea?

Last related question - is the bracing kit for the engine dividers basically a necessary item for the 800 sacs?

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IXFE
On August 31, 2015 at 9:06 AM, AdrockTT said:

Thank to both of you for the input. IXFE your wave looks awesome! If you don't mind, what was the total cost on pumps/install/front sac for that ballast setup? Is there a specific reason not to use the factory ballast pumps for filling the rears?

Sounds like the plumbed front bow triangle with the WM 800s out back is going to be the best bet long term.

Would the plan of getting the larger 800s as the initial PNP sac purchase and running them both partially full w people in the bow during surfing be a good temporizing measure until I'm able to sort out the plumbing idea?

Last related question - is the bracing kit for the engine dividers basically a necessary item for the 800 sacs?

Adrock... I had two prior boats with the factory Plug & Play. While it works okay, I was never 100% happy with it for three reasons:

  1. Because it's linked to the factory hard tanks you have to constantly manage a valve handle in the locker to toggle back and forth if you want to fill the bags or just the hard tanks. Lots of times we wakeboard and don't want the bags full, so leaving the valves always open was not an option for us. I just got tired of monitoring those valves and bending over to open/close them. See pic below from one of my old boats to see what I'm talking about. That big, black valve at the top of the pic is what I'm referring to.
  2. I never liked how the factory Plug & Play bags rely on gravity to drain. What that means is they drain very slowly and never get all the way empty. There's always some residual water in the bags.
  3. This is the first year I decided to go with a plumbed bag in the bow. I figured if I needed a reversible pump for the bow bag, I might as well have the same pumps running my locker bags... I did it for consistency. I'm kind of OCD like that. :biggrin:

For those reasons I decided to go with dedicated pumps on this boat (following Fman's lead). Now my factory hard tank ballast is separate from my auxiliary ballast. I like it that way. Two separate systems and I have complete control of both from the helm.

As for cost, my dealer did the install. They charge $800 parts/labor per location (so three locations total). That covers the pumps, the plumbing, the electrical, the fittings, water test, etc. It does NOT include the bags themselves. You can do it yourself cheaper, but I had just done my own stereo and was not anxious to tackle a new project. Lots of guys on this forum have done it though. I bet you can do it for $500 per location if you do it yourself. The pumps alone are only $200 each from Wakemakers, but the rest of the stuff you need adds up fast.  The add bags and you're probably at $650 - $800 per location (depending on whether you choose standard bags or custom).

Now, you've gotten good advice from the other posters. If you don't want a bag in the front, you can just run less weight / wedge in the rear. Some guys run 550's in the lockers. Some guys surf w/out the wedge. And you can always run the WM bags less than full. If I have a FULL boat, I don't run the bow bag because there are 3-4 people in the bow. In that case I back off the WM bags a bit. Easy to do since I have it all on separate pumps. Bottom line is that if you don't want a bow sack, you don't need one. My only point was that the WM bags are heavier than advertised and I believe you'll need a bow bag if you're running those sacks full + wedge. Your plan of running the WM bags partially full with people in the bow is a good way to approach it.

And yes, you will need to brace the walls if you use the WM bags. I didn't think I needed to because I've never done it before. But the engine dividers started popping almost immediately so I got them reinforced now using the WM kit.

750 PnP bag in my '13 VLX for reference...

20130907_184802_zps14ba20d1.jpg

Edited by IXFE

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AdrockTT

Awesome info. Thanks so much!

Did you consider any lead in the bow/observer's storage? I was thinking of cramming 300-ish lbs up there to help out with wanting the boat to be ballest'ed up frequently...Does that sound worth it?

(BTW - I don't trailer as the boat is stored w valet storage and launched on/off trailer by a tractor).

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kerpluxal

has anyone thought of a factory bow tank delete and running a fat sac in the place of it. It just seems like a lot of space for a little amount of ballast.

That is what I have ;)

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AdrockTT

That is what I have ;)

Any further details or pics? I'm local to you and my boat is on Conroe. Maybe I can see it in person some time :)

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randv

I know I will get shot down on here for saying this, but you get a pretty good wave (especially on the goofy side) with a very simple stock set up and 550lbs PnP in the lockers.

With less weight in the back means you don't really need extra bow weight.

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Murphy8166

Pretty happy with my 550's in the rear and 4-5 folks in boat.

I have a 400lb sack that I am going to put in the bow just to see what it does.

Getting my advice from folks that have over 600hrs in or behind a 2015 surfgate boat!

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IXFE

Awesome info. Thanks so much!

Did you consider any lead in the bow/observer's storage? I was thinking of cramming 300-ish lbs up there to help out with wanting the boat to be ballest'ed up frequently...Does that sound worth it?

(BTW - I don't trailer as the boat is stored w valet storage and launched on/off trailer by a tractor).

I don't like lead because I don't want it to always be there. Plenty of times we run the boat without any weight. Plus, we trailer the boat a lot... with a 1/2 ton truck!

In your case, maybe it's worth a try. Can't hurt.

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IXFE

I know I will get shot down on here for saying this, but you get a pretty good wave (especially on the goofy side) with a very simple stock set up and 550lbs PnP in the lockers.

With less weight in the back means you don't really need extra bow weight.

I'm certainly not going to shoot you down. I ran my '14 LSV basically the same way (750's in the rear that wouldn't fill all the way and no bow bag). Nothing wrong with that. We loved our wave last year.

My advice to the OP is 100% driven by his comment that he's already planning on the WM bags. I didn't want him to be fooled thinking those bags are only 800lbs. They are easily 1000lbs. With that kind of weight in the rear, you need to put something in the bow. That's all.

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randv

My advice to the OP is 100% driven by his comment that he's already planning on the WM bags. I didn't want him to be fooled thinking those bags are only 800lbs. They are easily 1000lbs. With that kind of weight in the rear, you need to put something in the bow. That's all.

And I am secretly jealous of your reversible pumps and bow plumbing set-up. Think if I had that I would indeed run bow weight. Edited by randv

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lingenfelter

You asked A LOT of questions there. I'll give you my perspective.

The first thing you need to understand is that those Wakemaker bags are NOT 800 lbs. Wakemakers told me directly that they filled them to capacity on a scale and they were 1,100 lbs. They told me that inside the boat, they are probably more like 1,000 lbs. I believe them (more on that below).

So, if you fill those bags to capacity and run the PW2 and have a bunch of peeps sitting back there (which is where people like to sit to watch surfing), you are running A LOT of weight in the rear. You need to run significant bow weight to even things out. It will help lower the nose of the boat as well as lengthen the wave. If you don't like this, then don't run the wedge. It's that simple.

My recommendation to you is plumb in a 1K bow triangle. That's what I have and I love it. It's easy to detach the bag & hose and stow them away when we are not using it. But when you want it, you want it. And a few hundred pounds of lead is no substitute.

Now... here's why I KNOW those Wakemaker bags are easily 1k lbs. I have all three of my bags plumbed to the same pumps using the same plumbing (see my pumps below). The 1K bow bag fills and empties just a bit faster than those Wakemaker bags. That's why I thought to even ask Wakemakers about the true weight. I knew something was up.

Here's the 1k bow triangle empty...

7918_zpso19weswp.jpg

Here it is full...

20150618_103832_zpstygndsbd.jpg

Here is where the bow bag plugs in. It's hidden up under the cup holders in the bow....

20150501_155814_zpstjyqi5rq.jpg

Here's the Wakemakers locker bags. No way these are only 800 lbs...

20150618_103845_zpswfzeobmh.jpg

Here are my pumps and my switches. Yeah, I didn't use the factory Plug N Play. Each of my bags gets it's own reversible pump...

20150428_155304_zpsmg5ptgyr.jpg

20150428_155908_zpszwrfmqxl.jpg

Here's what the boat looks like on the water with all that weight... almost 4,500lbs. not including gas or people. It's unbelievable how well this boat handles weight. The platform isn't even underwater...

20150618_104145_zpsqhqpucvw.jpg

And here's a few shots of the wave it makes. The first shot shows the HEIGHT while the second shows the LENGTH...

img_0881_zpsqaggxan1%201_zpsfqsumsgf.jpg

Capture_zpsqoeequkv.jpg

Spam happy. What fitting did you use to connect your quick release fitting up under cub holders in the bow where you have that metal panel? The only thing I can think of is an elbow bracket that is a 1" hose barb on one side and a female threaded NTP on the other? Is that what you did? If so, can you post a link to the part because I can't find that fitting. I'm trying to install that EXACT set up you did for your bow sac. Thanks.

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IXFE

Spam happy. What fitting did you use to connect your quick release fitting up under cub holders in the bow where you have that metal panel? The only thing I can think of is an elbow bracket that is a 1" hose barb on one side and a female threaded NTP on the other? Is that what you did? If so, can you post a link to the part because I can't find that fitting. I'm trying to install that EXACT set up you did for your bow sac. Thanks.

Not sure I understand that spam comment, but whatever.

I hope this helps...

7825_zpsljhpg2kj.jpg

20150501_155814_zpsbng5v42d.jpg

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DAI

IXFE, I'm shocked your swim platform is not underwater. With the same set up on the 2014, mine is 0.5" underwater . . . .surprised there is a difference between the two.

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DarkSide

First let me say IXFE has an insanely clean setup! I did a couple things different using factory PNP. First, i removed all of the valves, as IXFE alluded to they are a PITA. Second i moved the hard tank vent to the bag, this creates 3 paths from bag to hard tank, 2 forward and one aft. This has both consequences and benefits. Consequence, you cannot isolate the hard tank from the bag. The only way to control hard tank only is to partially fill bag then use drain, to get to hard tank level you want. Benefit, you are no longer a gravity only drain. So factory pump drains pnp bag pancake flat.

The other benefit to IXFE system is it is VERY CLEAN, 2 hoses, 1 fill/drain and a vent! Mine has the 3 connections to bottom tank, plus fill and vents.

Fill/drain time mine takes just under 10 minutes to fill currently, drain its slightly faster. Because his system is essentially 2 fill pumps and 2 drain pumps, his fill times are likely faster.

Just throwing this out there as pnp can work VERY well, and is a bit less expensive than dedicated pumps. With that said dedicated pumps is still the cleanest solution.

On a different note, i am a huge fan of lead. I keep 500 stashed in my bow, and 200 in the rear, 100 each corner, in the tubs. I also have 350 that rides in the truck, that i move to the boat at launch. This 350 is used for wake optimization, and finds its way to the bow/walkway for surfing. As IXFE also noted, that means i ALWAYS have 1000 pounds of ballast on board. So there is no way to create a clean 17 mph wake, and an extra 1000 pounds for cruising. Our lakes are small so cruising is not really a big deal for me. The benefit to lead is its concentration. With a bow bag the weight is distributed in the entire bow, with lead you can focus the weight further forward so you get the benefit of leverage.

End of the day, both work, and i probably confused more than helped.

Edited by DarkSide

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IXFE

^^^ Looking forward to seeing your setup next week!!

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Jarmin

IXFE, how many inlets do you have? is it one water inlet / drain per pump? could it work off 2 inlets with one inlet having a splitter?

How did you go finding room to not interfere with anything else in the bilge pump area? or where else did you mount the inlets?

Does the bow bag have a vent? if so where does it vent out of, front or back?

Finally how did you mount the pump bracket (white plastic looking bar) across the area where the pumps are mounted to?

Many thanks for this post, going to be installing this on a 2016 22vlx and super excited!

Edited by Jarmin
more info,

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OneZero81
On 9/10/2015 at 11:34 PM, DarkSide said:

First let me say IXFE has an insanely clean setup! I did a couple things different using factory PNP. First, i removed all of the valves, as IXFE alluded to they are a PITA. Second i moved the hard tank vent to the bag, this creates 3 paths from bag to hard tank, 2 forward and one aft. This has both consequences and benefits. Consequence, you cannot isolate the hard tank from the bag. The only way to control hard tank only is to partially fill bag then use drain, to get to hard tank level you want. Benefit, you are no longer a gravity only drain. So factory pump drains pnp bag pancake flat.

The other benefit to IXFE system is it is VERY CLEAN, 2 hoses, 1 fill/drain and a vent! Mine has the 3 connections to bottom tank, plus fill and vents.

Fill/drain time mine takes just under 10 minutes to fill currently, drain its slightly faster. Because his system is essentially 2 fill pumps and 2 drain pumps, his fill times are likely faster.

Just throwing this out there as pnp can work VERY well, and is a bit less expensive than dedicated pumps. With that said dedicated pumps is still the cleanest solution.

On a different note, i am a huge fan of lead. I keep 500 stashed in my bow, and 200 in the rear, 100 each corner, in the tubs. I also have 350 that rides in the truck, that i move to the boat at launch. This 350 is used for wake optimization, and finds its way to the bow/walkway for surfing. As IXFE also noted, that means i ALWAYS have 1000 pounds of ballast on board. So there is no way to create a clean 17 mph wake, and an extra 1000 pounds for cruising. Our lakes are small so cruising is not really a big deal for me. The benefit to lead is its concentration. With a bow bag the weight is distributed in the entire bow, with lead you can focus the weight further forward so you get the benefit of leverage.

End of the day, both work, and i probably confused more than helped.

Hey there.  

I have a '15 LSV 23.  Issues that I have is that the bags I have are older fly high 1100's.  They always have a lot of air in them.  There's no good way to "burp" them as the air vent is either between the locker and the rear seat, or up behind the rear locker depending on which way i put them in.   Another issue is draining. These bags only have 1 drain and it takes a good 20 minutes of pump on, pump off and wait for more water to drain into the tank, pump on again....

With your configuration, is there no vent?  How do you prevent over filling the bags?  Do you visually watch them fill and cut off the pumps?  I usually just pump them until they piss for a while out of the vents.  How do you keep air out, or let air out of your bags with this configuration?  I can see how this would drastically improve my draining and filling times.

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DarkSide

The top of my bag is attached to a vent line.   I actually disconnected the vent from the hard tank, and attached that vent to the PNP bag.   This also FORCES the hard tank to empty the bag first as the only access to air is through the bag.  It worked fairly well, but is slow.  

When I added second fill pump it dramatically improved fill time drain was still REALLY slow.  Drain time is not as important to me as fill time so I never augmented the drain side.

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chrisVLX
On 31.8.2015 at 7:34 AM, IXFE said:

You asked A LOT of questions there. I'll give you my perspective.

The first thing you need to understand is that those Wakemaker bags are NOT 800 lbs. Wakemakers told me directly that they filled them to capacity on a scale and they were 1,100 lbs. They told me that inside the boat, they are probably more like 1,000 lbs. I believe them (more on that below).

So, if you fill those bags to capacity and run the PW2 and have a bunch of peeps sitting back there (which is where people like to sit to watch surfing), you are running A LOT of weight in the rear. You need to run significant bow weight to even things out. It will help lower the nose of the boat as well as lengthen the wave. If you don't like this, then don't run the wedge. It's that simple.

My recommendation to you is plumb in a 1K bow triangle. That's what I have and I love it. It's easy to detach the bag & hose and stow them away when we are not using it. But when you want it, you want it. And a few hundred pounds of lead is no substitute.

Now... here's why I KNOW those Wakemaker bags are easily 1k lbs. I have all three of my bags plumbed to the same pumps using the same plumbing (see my pumps below). The 1K bow bag fills and empties just a bit faster than those Wakemaker bags. That's why I thought to even ask Wakemakers about the true weight. I knew something was up.

Here's the 1k bow triangle empty...

7918_zpso19weswp.jpg

Here it is full...

20150618_103832_zpstygndsbd.jpg

Here is where the bow bag plugs in. It's hidden up under the cup holders in the bow....

20150501_155814_zpstjyqi5rq.jpg

Here's the Wakemakers locker bags. No way these are only 800 lbs...

20150618_103845_zpswfzeobmh.jpg

Here are my pumps and my switches. Yeah, I didn't use the factory Plug N Play. Each of my bags gets it's own reversible pump...

20150428_155304_zpsmg5ptgyr.jpg

20150428_155908_zpszwrfmqxl.jpg

Here's what the boat looks like on the water with all that weight... almost 4,500lbs. not including gas or people. It's unbelievable how well this boat handles weight. The platform isn't even underwater...

20150618_104145_zpsqhqpucvw.jpg

And here's a few shots of the wave it makes. The first shot shows the HEIGHT while the second shows the LENGTH...

img_0881_zpsqaggxan1%201_zpsfqsumsgf.jpg

Capture_zpsqoeequkv.jpg

Any chance to see the pictures of IXFE again? on photobucket I can't see a single pic ... which would be excellent to see a perfect solution! ;-)

 

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thejean

Ok so why is everyone saying that you need to add bow weight? I run two 750's in the back, wedge 90% down and don't fill my stock bow tank. My wave is best like this. I am even looking to go to 1100's to get an even steeper wake. I did add a 4" seat riser to combat bow rise but for me, steeper is better. 

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Stevo

because with more weight in the back , stock hard tank , and a bow bag you can have the height and length that many desire. Bow bag mad a difference for me

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