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Tragedy has struck nutty Vride


nuttyskier2002

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I've read many posts on this site and others concerning hydro-lock issues with marine engines. I've felt so fortunate and wondered what I was doing right that has kept this from happening to me. That is until now. Monday I went boarding with my usual group in my '06 Vride at Lake Saguaro in the Phoenix area. Initially at first start the engine turned over very slowly like my starting battery was down. I was convinced of this as my batt gauge read 11.9v and batt voltage at the battery was only 12.4. This is on an Optima which normally reads 13.1 on full charge. After several attempts the engine did come to life and we were off and boarding. After everyone had a turn we dropped the wedge, filled the port side ballast bag and forward hard tank and then filled one more extra Launch bag. The boat was listing port for some wake surfing (almost to the point of dragging the rub rail in the water). I was last to surf. After dropping once then getting back up the boat started to lose speed and my wake turned to white wash. Got back up again and soon the same thing happened.....boat lost power.

When I got in the boat I discovered that the bilge had lots of water in it. Turned on the bilge pump and it ran for quite a bit before all the water was pumped out.. At this point we decided to take a lunch break and headed to Sandy Beach. After all the water was gone from the bilge the engine ran fine and had good power.

After lunch break decided to had back for more surfing however the engine would not turn over. This time battery voltage was good at 13.1 (12.5 on the dash). So I knew I had either a failed starter or a hydro-lock issue. I was leaning toward the starter (and hoping) since I had so much water in the bilge.

With no cell phone service, no tools to do anything and few boats on the lake that day we were at the mercy of who ever was willing to give us a tow back. Around 3 PM an elderly couple showed up and was willing to give us a pull. We tied on and began heading back to the dock. For those who boat at Saguaro (I know there are some on this site) you know how turbulent the water can get at times in this area. The current can take your boat and ram it right into the canyon wall if you are not careful. I'm guessing the old man who was towing us did not realize this as he was staying way too close to the right side. I yelled to him to TURN LEFT! But he did not turn fast enough and hard enough to avoid the inevitable. We got caught up in the turbulent water and it pushed us right into the rocky wall. My right side board rack hit and was damage and a 2" long gouge was ripped into that side just above the rub rail and the rub rail was ground down to almost nothing. Also my surf board was crushed! I was LIVID! I wanted to tell this guy how stupid he is but now I realize the mistake was my own for not ensuring that he knew to stay closer to the middle.

We got back to the dock and got the boat on the trailer. When we got to my friends house in Gilbert (I live in Maricopa) we pulled the plugs. I was hoping to not find water but that was I was let down. The port side cylinders were all dry but the starboard side had water in every one. The #1 plug had some rust around the shell just below where the threads end. So I know there was water in this cylinder at least before Monday.

I'm pretty sure I don't have a head gasket issue as I have never overheated this engine. So I'm thinking exhaust manifolds particularly the risers. What puzzles me is that I've seen this same thing happen on my friends boat when he had a lot of water in his bilge. Coincidental? I don't know. Could there have been enough water being thrown around in the engine bay to possibly reach the air intake? But there was no water in the bilge when it actually hydro-locked.

All with experience with this please chime in! This might be a good excuse to resume my 383 stroker project. Got my block back finally!

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I kind of wonder when you list the boat to one side, if it prevents the exhaust from fully draining properly and you get the water ingestion on shut down due to no exhaust flow. Just stabbing in the dark. I know there are guidelines on cam overlap on hipo engines to ensure you don't suck water back in. And it is a tight range on the cam sizing. If you hold water in the riser and exhaust runners oddly due to listing or just from a bad riser, I kind of wonder if you exacerbate the problem.

Oh, and really sorry to hear this happened and that you got some damage to your boat. Engines are easier than glass, imho.

Edited by Falko
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Flappers are still there but I think I'm going to replace them anyway as well as the risers at minimum.

Falko the side that was highest when the boat listed is the side that got water in. Any thoughts there?

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I think you have multiple problems.

  1. The first starting issue may be a bad starter. Most times when a starter goes out it will draw so much current that it seems like the battery is dead or dieing. You can't really tell until you do a load test on the battery, or change the battery out for a known good one.
  2. You must have some kind of leak with that much water in the bilge. Have you found the leak yet?
  3. The bilge pump should have come on automatically when the water in the bilge got up there. Is your bilge pump broken?
  4. Was the boat missing when it was low on power with water in the bilge? It could have been a coincidence, but not likely. How high was the water? Did it get to the starter?
  5. How much water was in the cylinders? Were they pretty much full? Did the boat turn over at all before you started towing? How fast were you being towed? I'm most inclinded to think that the water came in through the exhaust during towing. I've seen it before in jetskis, although they have a different system of cooling.
  6. How long did you have water in the cylinders? Do you know the proper procedure to get it up and running again? Don't just start it up.
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I don't really know. It all depends on the angle of the riser/exhaust manifold and how the water was lying in the exhaust. I would hope that it isn't that close of an issue but figure the boat at idle with very little pressure and the water running through the exhaust, you could end up with some collection of water somewhere close to be ingested. Did you still have the boat weighted and listed when you went in for lunch and shut down? Could have run in after shut down.

I am pretty curious if there would be a link between the water in the bilge and the water in the engine. The intake is pretty far above the bilge, only thing I could remotely guess at is the lower pulley getting wet and flinging water toward the intake, if your intake is the same side as the belts. That is a stretch Mr. Armstrong would blush over though.

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Falko's analysis is where I was thinking, it is actually the cool down phase where the water is drawn up through the exhaust in to the open exhaust valve and thus in to the combustion chamber. Could have simply drawn enough up in to the exhaust manifold so when you turned the engine over via the starter as the valves opened, each cylinder sucked in some water. The high side manifold probably / might have run much warmer than the low side one so there was a longer and more pronounced cool off period which would allow a better chance for water draw particularly if the boat was then level. It would be an interesting test to check exhaust manifold temps on a heavily listed boat at the conclusion of a run.

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I think you have multiple problems.

  1. The first starting issue may be a bad starter. Most times when a starter goes out it will draw so much current that it seems like the battery is dead or dieing. You can't really tell until you do a load test on the battery, or change the battery out for a known good one.
  2. You must have some kind of leak with that much water in the bilge. Have you found the leak yet?
  3. The bilge pump should have come on automatically when the water in the bilge got up there. Is your bilge pump broken?
  4. Was the boat missing when it was low on power with water in the bilge? It could have been a coincidence, but not likely. How high was the water? Did it get to the starter?
  5. How much water was in the cylinders? Were they pretty much full? Did the boat turn over at all before you started towing? How fast were you being towed? I'm most inclinded to think that the water came in through the exhaust during towing. I've seen it before in jetskis, although they have a different system of cooling.
  6. How long did you have water in the cylinders? Do you know the proper procedure to get it up and running again? Don't just start it up.

I would have been inclined to believe it was the starter prior to seeing rust on one of the spark plugs. This indicates water had been in the cylinder for more than just a couples of hours. Probably not much water as the engine was able to turn over. But still enough to show evidence that it had been there before that day. No doubt....I do have a leak to be getting that much water in the bilge. I know this needs fixing and yes the bilge pump is on my list for replacement. It does work with the switch but not in auto mode. As far as a miss goes.....can't say for sure as I was on the surf board as this time.....but I didn't hear a miss in the exhaust. All cylinders on the starboard side had water.....noy just a little but quite a bit. All water was pumped out after removing the plugs and spinning the engine over. Once plugs were re-installed the engine was started.......easily I will add......no starter issue........ and ran engine for 15 or so seconds. Towing did not cause the hydro-lock. It was hydro-locked prior to being towed.towing was very slow......just above idle speed.

These are many of the questions I would have asked someone else for the same issue.......but I've been through this problem before on other boats so I do have some experience here.

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Falko's analysis is where I was thinking, it is actually the cool down phase where the water is drawn up through the exhaust in to the open exhaust valve and thus in to the combustion chamber. Could have simply drawn enough up in to the exhaust manifold so when you turned the engine over via the starter as the valves opened, each cylinder sucked in some water. The high side manifold probably / might have run much warmer than the low side one so there was a longer and more pronounced cool off period which would allow a better chance for water draw particularly if the boat was then level. It would be an interesting test to check exhaust manifold temps on a heavily listed boat at the conclusion of a run.

I've never considered this before but it makes perfect sense! When I get thing fixed I will take my pyrometer with me and check.

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Big bummer Nutty. Sorry to hear. I know this is overly obvious, but was there any white "smoke" coming out your exhaust when it was running poorly?

The power loss was very brief and I'm sure was due to water being thrown around in the engine bay. Someone ask earlier, I think, if water was being slung around by the belts. I know in fact that it was and probably did cause an ignition miss. I did see small amounts of water on top of the intake manifold so I know it was flying around. Thats why I think some might have found it's way into the intake.

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I don't really know. It all depends on the angle of the riser/exhaust manifold and how the water was lying in the exhaust. I would hope that it isn't that close of an issue but figure the boat at idle with very little pressure and the water running through the exhaust, you could end up with some collection of water somewhere close to be ingested. Did you still have the boat weighted and listed when you went in for lunch and shut down? Could have run in after shut down.

I am pretty curious if there would be a link between the water in the bilge and the water in the engine. The intake is pretty far above the bilge, only thing I could remotely guess at is the lower pulley getting wet and flinging water toward the intake, if your intake is the same side as the belts. That is a stretch Mr. Armstrong would blush over though.

All ballast emptied and no listing when we broke for lunch.

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A hot engine can rust some in just a couple hours since oxidation accelerates when heated. I'm not saying this is the first time you had water in there, but it's possible.

Falko's analysis is where I was thinking, it is actually the cool down phase where the water is drawn up through the exhaust in to the open exhaust valve and thus in to the combustion chamber. Could have simply drawn enough up in to the exhaust manifold so when you turned the engine over via the starter as the valves opened, each cylinder sucked in some water. The high side manifold probably / might have run much warmer than the low side one so there was a longer and more pronounced cool off period which would allow a better chance for water draw particularly if the boat was then level. It would be an interesting test to check exhaust manifold temps on a heavily listed boat at the conclusion of a run.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 2 exhaust manifolds are connected by a hose. Therefore you shouldn't get water filling up one side without filling the other unless there is a suction above the connection. I have a tough time believing that the cool down sucked that much water up there. There would have to be zero gas in the manifold and it would have to be all water vapor that condensed for that to happen. I just don't see that. Also, this would only account for water getting in one cylinder. The other valves that were shut would not get any water in them even when you cranked the engine over since there would be air pressure coming out from compression.

I would say that you might have a warped head, but I highly doubt that would cause water in all cylinders. Is the engine all original with no major work done on it?

If you got water in the intake it would be in all cylinders not just one side. That would have to be a gush of water in the intake for it to pool in the cylinders. Your symptoms scream head problem to me, but it's a weird one for sure. Have you checked the oil? Water in there? Compression test?

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Engine is a bone stock LCR 320 Indmar (350 GM based) with ~300 hours. I don"t really think the hydro-lock was caused by water getting into the air intake either. But I do believe that is what caused the power reduction. No compression test yet.

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Is the alternator on the bottom of that engine? If water got up there, it could be causing electrical problems related to the power loss. That still doesn't explain water in the cylinders.

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Update: Insurance claim filed with Progressive. WOW.....are they great to deal with! My deductible is $500.00. Total damage came out to be $2800.00 and change. This is my first claim ever on any of my boats and so far it has gone very well. Also......I've done a lot of research on causes of hydro-lock. I found a service bulletin from Mercruiser that I think many will be interested in. Here it is: http://www.boatfix.com/merc/Bullet/01/01_13.pdf. If link doesn't work just copy and paste it in the URL cell.

So the plugs were pulled and water pumped out. WD40 sprayed in all cylinders and then engine cranked over. Then plugs put back in and engine fired right up.

When I get the boat back from the repair shop (gel coat damage) I will perform a compression test. If good the exhaust manifolds will come off and be inspected. I have ordered riser gaskets to replace as a minimum. I will also be replacing the RWP impeller and inspecting passages for any debris.

I don't believe I'm having an overheating issue with the engine but I'm not sure I'm getting enough water to the exhaust manifolds to keep them cool. They are quite warm to the touch!

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  • 2 months later...

Update: Got my boat back last week.....finally. Sun Country Marine in Glendale Arizona did a great job on the gelcoat and matched the color perfectly! They even detailed the boat inside and out. Looks great!

As for the hydrolock issue I pulled the exhaust manifolds and separated the manifolds/risers. I was sure I found a leaking riser gasket when separating. So I scraped and scraped and filed the mating surfaces flat (checked with a straight edge and .002" feeler gage). I spent hours on theses things and even painted them and had them looking brand new. Bolted them back together with new gaskets and water tested them. The one that came off the starboard side was leaking. I tore it back down thinking the gasket was leaking ( from over tightening) and put water to it and filled just short of the level where the riser mating surface is. I could see a steady stream of water coming right out of the #1 cylinder exhaust port. This was with no back pressure what so ever. DISAPPOINTED! So new manifolds are on order.

Compression test turned out good. Lowest cylinder was 170 and highest was 185 with 6 of them right at the 175 mark. I also replaced the impeller which had been in for 2 years. It was pretty worn out. The vanes were fairly limp compared to the new one and I'm wonderting if maybe this caused the manifold to crack (if it is cracked) internally. The engine never overheated.......however a lower than normal water flow caused by the deteriated impeller may have caused the manifold to overheat. I'm going to try to disect the bad manifold to see how it failed. I will let you guys know what I find if anything.

Along with all of this I did an oil change. On the dipstick and under the valve cover there was no sign of a milkshake. But the oil filter was a different story. Definitely water in there. Also the first several ounces of fluid from the oil pan (when draining) was water.

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Another update: New manifolds arrived last Friday. I know some will not agree but I ordered the ones from Barr Marine. They are supposed to be "direct replacement" parts for Indmar. The initial quality looks good and they came with new bolts, all plugs and gaskets. Both manifols plus shipping totaled $468.00. So Monday I mated the risers and manifolds together and started to install them (after leak testing of course). As I was fastening the 6 bolts on the first manifold I noticed that the bolts started bottoming out before the exhaust ports were mated together. I was using the original SS Hex Key bolts (Malibu) instead of the ones supplied with the Barr manifolds. Turns out that the port length on the Barr manifolds is about 1/4" shorter than the Malibu manifolds. I didn't notice this at start. Okay....so must us the new bolts supplied with the Barr manifolds. This was slightly disappointing because the new bolts were not stainless. They are grade 5 though so not too bad. All went well from there however........because the Barr manifolds set 1/4" closer to the head......a slight missalignment is caused between the riser outlet and the muffler inlet. So the short length of hose connecting these two ports is put in a bit of a bind. Enough of a bind to make it so that the manifold will need to be unbolted if there comes a need to disconnect the muffler (in the future).

Once all was bolted together and all hose clamped tightened, installed new spark plugs, checked oil........I put the water hose to her and cranked her up. Just a little smoke at first (burning off the WD40 that was sprayed into the spark plug holes). Then she smoothed right out and ran very well. I let her run for about half an hour.....checking for water leaks and listening for anything out of the ordinary. All seems well. After shutting her down and letting her sit overnight (did not drain manifolds) I strated her up again Wed afternoon. No hydrolock! I'm pretty sure I got her fixed but gonna keep a close eye on things and definitely carry a spark plug socket to the lake. Wish me luck!

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Wow, nice job nutty. I think you got it done too. All things considered these engines are really resilient. Those manifolds sound like a good buy, even though it's a little tricky install.

Thanks for keeping us posted,

Steve B.

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Congrats on getting it back up and running.

I bought the wicked wakes this year I also have a 06 Vride worth every penny. Will save you from listing the boat and wake is way better hand down.

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