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To Wing or not to Wing


Guest GalaxyToad

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Guest GalaxyToad

We've covered a lot of ground on slalom set-up and briefly touched on fin/wing combinations on an unrelated thread in the past. Now I want to make it a feature.

I was skiing at Outlaw today and my adopted mentor out there was helping me with my turn in for the gates. The ski (D3 X5) was scrubbing speed at such a rate in the glide that I was sinking at the turn in. Coming farther up the boat caused slack and pulling out later really screwed up my timing.

He talked me into pulling the wing off because I'm not running a line length short enough to warrant having it on there any way. So I did, and this is what I got:

1 - Slightly reduced roll stability.

2 - Improved energy conservation.

3 - Slight change in front/back balance, easily overcome by body position.

4 - The ski seems to come around the turn more freely arriving in front of me.

Overall I think it was a good thing and I don't plan to put it back on any time soon.

Comments?

Opinions?

Does the average weekend warrior (even us real serious ones) need a wing?

Hmmmm..........

Edited by GalaxyToad
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Your ability is well beyond mine GT. One recommendation by "Skisix" was that I take the wing off my Charger while trying to learn the course when I described some of the problems I was having. Good luck.........see you in a few months!

Edited by skistud1
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We've covered a lot of ground on slalom set-up and briefly touched on fin/wing combinations on an unrelated thread in the past. Now I want to make it a feature.

I was skiing at Outlaw today and my adopted mentor out there was helping me with my turn in for the gates. The ski (D3 X5) was scrubbing speed at such a rate in the glide that I was sinking at the turn in. Coming farther up the boat caused slack and pulling out later really screwed up my timing.

He talked me into pulling the wing off because I'm not running a line length short enough to warrant having it on there any way. So I did, and this is what I got:

1 - Slightly reduced roll stability.

2 - Improved energy conservation.

3 - Slight change in front/back balance, easily overcome by body position.

4 - The ski seems to come around the turn more freely arriving in front of me.

Overall I think it was a good thing and I don't plan to put it back on any time soon.

Comments?

Opinions?

Does the average weekend warrior (even us real serious ones) need a wing?

Hmmmm..........

Funny, my wife got the same tip yesterday.

(She's on a Vengeance now.)

Let's see how it works out...

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Practically the wing helps to keep the tail of the ski down in the water. Theory says to do this to keep the tail from "blowing out" when finishing a turn very quickly. My experience says I can blow a tail out with a wing too, it would be very difficult to do a apples to apples test. So, consider that if the wing keeps the tail down in the water, does it do that by pivoting the ski at some point along it's length or does it just suck the whole ski down? Dpending on ski set up and ski, I think it could do either and a little of both.

IF the wing's use, other than to look cool, is to keep the tail from blowing out under extreme turns, why do folks going 30mph and longer lines use them? I don't think they are making hard enough turns to warrent their use and the down side to using one is that by keeping the tail down through the turn it is putting the ski at a less efficient attitude in the water and as GT noted, "scrbbing speed". If you are turning so hard while gowing slower and at 15 off, you need to learn to turn.

GT- your list is exactly why I never ran a wing when I skied on my CR7. I accepted the fact that when I ran late and needed to make up ground I was probably going to blow out in a turn. As a side note, this is one area I think that the Carbonworx excels a bit more than the X5- finishing the turn with speed/efficiency.

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Geez louise, you guys keep this up and I'm gonna have to make my wife get a good paying job so I can quit mine, just to have enough time to play with all of these aspects of the game! Biggrin.gif

Hoover's on his way up here today, gonna hit it tomorrow. I'm gonna pull the wing off mine and see what happens.

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According to Steve Schnitzer (some guy that knows a bit about fins & wings), the sole purpose of the wing is to create drag. Since the relative size of the wing to the ski will not let it's angle really pull the ski down, an increase in the angle of the wing just creates more resistance, effectively slowing the ski down in all phases of slalom. Since the pull of the boat comes from somewhere above the ski this effect will actually cause more tip pressure. Kind of rocking the ski forward. I'm open to any engineering style analysis of this, but Steve's explanation seems plausible.

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According to Steve Schnitzer (some guy that knows a bit about fins & wings), the sole purpose of the wing is to create drag. Since the relative size of the wing to the ski will not let it's angle really pull the ski down, an increase in the angle of the wing just creates more resistance, effectively slowing the ski down in all phases of slalom. Since the pull of the boat comes from somewhere above the ski this effect will actually cause more tip pressure. Kind of rocking the ski forward. I'm open to any engineering style analysis of this, but Steve's explanation seems plausible.

I think Steve's philosophy on wings is to keep the tail down during the turn. At least that's my interpration of his philosophy. When you are leveraging against the boat, the skis attitude in the water is such that the wing doesn't add much drag. Of course, that depends on the amount of leverage and wing angle. The ski is also why he has different wing sizes, some skis will stay down in the water better than others.

The onyl engineering that needs to be done is for skiers to try with a wing and then without, you make the determination of what's better.

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There's a small Wing Theory thread on Nicholls right now with some good theories including Schnitz's, where he of course makes sure everyone knows he's got more experience than anyone regarding the topic.

Mike

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According to Steve Schnitzer (some guy that knows a bit about fins & wings), the sole purpose of the wing is to create drag. Since the relative size of the wing to the ski will not let it's angle really pull the ski down, an increase in the angle of the wing just creates more resistance, effectively slowing the ski down in all phases of slalom. Since the pull of the boat comes from somewhere above the ski this effect will actually cause more tip pressure. Kind of rocking the ski forward. I'm open to any engineering style analysis of this, but Steve's explanation seems plausible.

I think Steve's philosophy on wings is to keep the tail down during the turn. At least that's my interpration of his philosophy. When you are leveraging against the boat, the skis attitude in the water is such that the wing doesn't add much drag. Of course, that depends on the amount of leverage and wing angle. The ski is also why he has different wing sizes, some skis will stay down in the water better than others.

The onyl engineering that needs to be done is for skiers to try with a wing and then without, you make the determination of what's better.

So, I just read the thread on the nicholls site and thought something here needed clarification. Schnitz did in fact come out and say that the wing adds drag everywhere in the nicholls thread. Go deeper into what he has posted on his website. The added drag is a drawback that's a symptom of keeping the tail down during a turn. What I said above is true for me at least, a wing doesn't add much, if any noticeable, drag through the wakes.

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When you are leveraging against the boat, the skis attitude in the water is such that the wing doesn't add much drag. The onyl engineering that needs to be done is for skiers to try with a wing and then without, you make the determination of what's better.

Agree on both of these points. It's been a while since I tried skiing without a wing. I plan on trying it this week sometime, though.

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I always thought the wing was there to slow the ski down coming into the ball (like a mini speed brake) so that the ski could turn tighter. That made sense to me because you just can't turn at the cross-course speeds required to run at 38, 39.5, 41 off.

It helps in doing that to. Let me explain, as a skier comes off the second wake and starts to transition into edge change the ski changes attitude in the water. The cumulative affects of now being on the deceleration side of the pendulum with the attitude change works to start slowing the ski down by allowing it to ride deeper in the water and by flexing forward you are pushing the tip down. This is where the idea of keeping the tail down is important for tight turns. In slow motion, visualize the real good guys and how they approach the bouy. They are moving their weight forward by pushing their knees into the turn to get the ski to turn tight. All this weight forward needs something to anchor it, the wing.

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Hoover and I managed to hook up today, and we both ditched the wing to see what it felt like. Unfortunately, the water wasn't conducive to much more than exercise - 15mph wind, and a bunch of other boats out there making waves (on a Tuesday, 2 1/2 weeks before Memorial Day no less - WTF?).

I did get a few decent cuts though, and I liked what I felt - the ski seemed to come around easier in the turns, and acceleration seemed better as well. I'm looking forward to better conditions and getting into the course with it. As a reference point, I was skiing 34mph and 22' off.

Edited by SunriseH2OSkier
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Not to butt in on the real warriors, but just a question? I ski a Kidder Redline and I am a true weekend warrior. I was told last year when I was trying to learn the course at 15 off and 30 mph that I needed to ditch the wing because it was slowing me down too much and I wasn't skiing fast enough... Anyway, I left it on because I figured the ski came that way, why mess with it??? For a real rookie such as myself, would you ditch it? Could it actually be hurting my progress?

Edited by Lake.OD
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Ditto Lake.OD's question for me, only I'm on an Obrien Siege. I got out today too Jerry. Other than the wind, it was a great day on the water.

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Lake OD and Vette-ski; It's really a personal choice. Vette-ski I'll see you in a few weeks and I'll be able to tell whether it's hurting or helping. If you like the way it skis with a wing, then leave it on. I do suggest trying to ski without it so you can gaqe what the wing is doing in your case. If you are going to ski with the wing, go to that link and read about how mounting the wing changes the properties that it affects. I'd say that a majority of skiers should have the wing mounted upside down.

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I've got one of those Carbon Fins on my System 8, which I originally had on my old CDX. I can say that I noticed a slight different on the CDX where it was a bit more forgiving when the boat picked you back up.

I got it for half price, though. I don't think I'd spend the $75 or so on one.

Mike

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I've got one of those Carbon Fins on my System 8, which I originally had on my old CDX. I can say that I noticed a slight different on the CDX where it was a bit more forgiving when the boat picked you back up.

I got it for half price, though. I don't think I'd spend the $75 or so on one.

Mike

Now, throwing a carbon fin adds a whole new set variables. The whole idea/purpose of running a carbon fin or a Schnitz slot fin is to run more fin in the water and still be able to turn. The carbon fins are going to flex al little more than the Al. version. That means that whne you lean on the ski the forces that impart on the fin will flex the carbon one. Theory here is that a skier could run more fin in the water to help track better cross course and then when a turn happens, the fin flexes to allow the ski to finish. My experience has been that the fin also flexes cross course and I lose cross sourse tracking.

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Remember folks that your ski is not passing through a solid medium in the turn. It's partially railing on the surface of the water, and partially sliding through the water. Look at an overhead shot of Wade Cox to see what I'm talking about. The fin is what's keeping your tail in the water by being angled downward and forward from the apex on to the turn finish. The wing is actually angled in the opposite direction. If anything, a wing will generate a little bit of lift at the finish of the turn by being oriented in this fashion, perpendicular to the fin.

I don't think the wing does jack squat in the turn itself other than create turbulence around the fin and add effective surface area to the bottom of the ski, meaning more force is required to slide it around to finish the turn. Where it helps is when you're front loading the ski in the pre-turn to scrub some speed. More weight forward means an increased angle of incidence on the fin means more deceleration.

At least that's how my engineering mind visualizes it...

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Remember folks that your ski is not passing through a solid medium in the turn. It's partially railing on the surface of the water, and partially sliding through the water. Look at an overhead shot of Wade Cox to see what I'm talking about. The fin is what's keeping your tail in the water by being angled downward and forward from the apex on to the turn finish. The wing is actually angled in the opposite direction. If anything, a wing will generate a little bit of lift at the finish of the turn by being oriented in this fashion, perpendicular to the fin.

I don't think the wing does jack squat in the turn itself other than create turbulence around the fin and add effective surface area to the bottom of the ski, meaning more force is required to slide it around to finish the turn. Where it helps is when you're front loading the ski in the pre-turn to scrub some speed. More weight forward means an increased angle of incidence on the fin means more deceleration.

At least that's how my engineering mind visualizes it...

That's one interpretation. It doesn't fit my experience at all though. I've never tried to run a wing at 5 degree's but Schnitz seems to think that you could generate lift if the wing ran at 5 mounted upside down.

I pick this place to say that I don't want to slow down that much, I want to carry my speed and be able to turn with it. The more speed up and slow down I have the less effecient I run and the more prone to making mistakes in body position that result in a fall.

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Skisix, any thoughts on the slot fin? I've been thinking about giving one a try.

I'd like to try one myself but, not enough to pay Schnitz for one just to try. His fin is based on the same theory as the carbon fin. More surface area in the water but he cuts a relief in the back to allow the ski to "slide around" to finish.

Let me just say that the least of my problems is turning. I have finished more tournaments than I care to count by finishing too hard on my onside, 2/4. This happens for one of two reasons, one I don't carry enough speed into the turn to keep the ski speedy throughout the turn and it gets behind me and deep- pop goes the handle. Two, I carry enough speed into the turn but release too quickly and the ski finishes turning and sets up angle before I finish turning, and the boat hasn't progressed downcourse enough in this case either. So, I am always looking for something that will hold good angle and turn tight but just not too tight.

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Thanks for the additional info. I don't have a problem turning (overturning more often than not), but I'm wondering what running with the increased depth or surface area could do.

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I'm not a skier mind you, so this is just an outside observation. But I seem to see a lot of good slalom coaches that lean toward wanting people to start without the fin, learn technique & once that's solid, then add things like the fin as it seems appropriate. Seems like solid advice to me & judging from what I've seen, scrubbing speed off prior to the turn isn't something that most people that are learning the course and technique need to worry about. In fact if you think about it, it seems to me that it could teach you or allow you to get into bad habits that you'll have to break in order to progress.

JM2C, smack me back out of the thread if I'm way off. :)

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