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black06VLX

Wiring in 3rd amp, need help/input

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black06VLX

Sorry to make another one of these, but I have been searching all morning and not feeling like I have a better plan at the moment.

So my current setup is the following I will give all I can for details. My big concern is around do I keep the perko switch and dual battery setup or move to a combiner/isolator switch.

2006 Wakesetter VLX

So I have the perko switch and malibu dual battery setup.

(1) JL Audio 500.1 slash series amp running a JL 12W3 sub

(1) JL Audio e6450 amp that will be running (2) pairs of JL Audio VR series speakers. Channels 5&6 will remain dormant for now, but I plan to add 2 bow speakers off these channels later this summer.

Apline 9886 deck. I believe we ran all 14AWG wire to the speakers in the cabin. Tower wiring needs to be changed I think its stock. There were two 6.5" titan cans on the illusion tower these are being replaced.

New items being added.

(1) Wetsounds SYN4 amp to run 2 Rev 10 speakers on the tower

Should I buy one of the combiner switches so that when on the lake I don't have to manually flip between battery banks or once running does the perko switch allow both batteries to get charged when they need to? I am assuming not unless its that bank selected?

I was planning to run 12AWG speaker wire up the tower, is that a b**** for the guys that have done it? Should I just stay with 14AWG?

I need new battery's what should I pick up and will a simple two battery setup be enough. I probably only sit with the boat off and play music for 2-4hrs at most a day and not in a row. Usually half volume or lower so the majority of the time the boat is running while the system is playing.

I am just kind of stuck as to what way I should rewire stuff since I need to add an amp and speakers in. I might as well make it better and upgrade the battery/power setup a bit if I can. I would like to add an onboard charger down the road also, but I might only be able to use the charger now and than when at the lake so I mainly need to rely on the alt to charge up the batteries.

Thanks in advance.

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MLA
My big concern is around do I keep the perko switch and dual battery setup or move to a combiner/isolator switch.

What switch do you have between your dual banks, if its not already an isolator/combine switch? It may be manual, but it isolates and combines none the less, right? Are you talking about adding an ACR/VSR? Having a manual/automatic system like a Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus switch and ACR can be great for one system and boat owner, but may not be the right setup for the next system and owner.

More info about how you use the boat, size of the house bank and if there is or will be an on board charger in the mix.

Edited by MLA

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David

black06,

You will have Class AB, D and H, so a variety of efficiency levels. The e6450 is the least efficient but with a 4-ohm load on all channels it will be operating conservatively. Btw, I really like the dedicated channel per each speaker scheme, especially on in-boat speakers.

Half power as you acoustically perceive it may only be 1/4 to 1/10th electrical power. So with the AC nature of music you shouldn't be pulling that much of your reserves. You can extend your play time or reduce your current draw while at rest by eliminating or at least minimizing the in-boat zone(s), particularly when you'll hear little benefit outside and away from the bathtub so to speak.

So try this to start. A std. group 24 for starting. With a small block and in warm weather a deep cycle or DP should be fine. Use a group 31 on the intended stereo bank. While the battery is still young, and after that first trip out, before you combine the battery banks with the switch, measure the voltage level of the stereo bank. If it maintains a level of 12.0 + volts (around 50% capacity) after the duration at rest then you are fine. If not, then double that bank with two total batteries immediately so the batteries are still considered equal capacity. I doubt a third battery will be necessary with the described system.

With two total batteries only, the difference between a manual dual battery switch and a isolator (let's call this an ACR/VSR/voltage sensing relay) is primarily a matter of convenience. The ACR/VSR isolates and combines automatically. With the manual switch you will select the stereo bank #1 (for example) at rest and then select 'All/Both' before starting. You will select 'Off' when placed on the trailer and select 'All/Both' when splashed. So not a great deal to remember.

An ACR/VSR with a switch combination can be important for shore charging purposes.

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black06VLX

What switch do you have between your dual banks, if its not already an isolator/combine switch? It may be manual, but it isolates and combines none the less, right? Are you talking about adding an ACR/VSR? Having a manual/automatic system like a Blue Sea Dual Circuit Plus switch and ACR can be great for one system and boat owner, but may not be the right setup for the next system and owner.

More info about how you use the boat, size of the house bank and if there is or will be an on board charger in the mix.

Its just a perko switch, so strictly manual. I do not believe there is anything else in there when we wired stuff up the first time. Yes I was wondering if I should go to a ACR/VSR setup or stick to a manual setup that I have to switch.

No onboard charger at the moment, but I am wanting/going to add one. I just don't know what charger to get at the moment.

I mainly use the boat to board. Music is on decently loud(alpine deck goes to 33, we run it at 20-26 while boarding) This might change with the REV10's on there now. Shut down to switch riders and play the music at say 12-18 out of 33. We sit for lunch or to rest and switch ballast around and play the stereo at the 12-18 again.

At the place we stay you can't leave your boat in the driveway over night all the time(they want it put in their storage place) so I can't always be hooking up an onboard charger to top up the batteries.

Right now its just a single deep cycle battery to post A and single deep cycle to post B. I will get info on the batteries tonight I forget the brand the dealer gave us a few years back as a replacement unit.

black06,

You will have Class AB, D and H, so a variety of efficiency levels. The e6450 is the least efficient but with a 4-ohm load on all channels it will be operating conservatively. Btw, I really like the dedicated channel per each speaker scheme, especially on in-boat speakers.

Half power as you acoustically perceive it may only be 1/4 to 1/10th electrical power. So with the AC nature of music you shouldn't be pulling that much of your reserves. You can extend your play time or reduce your current draw while at rest by eliminating or at least minimizing the in-boat zone(s), particularly when you'll hear little benefit outside and away from the bathtub so to speak.

So try this to start. A std. group 24 for starting. With a small block and in warm weather a deep cycle or DP should be fine. Use a group 31 on the intended stereo bank. While the battery is still young, and after that first trip out, before you combine the battery banks with the switch, measure the voltage level of the stereo bank. If it maintains a level of 12.0 + volts (around 50% capacity) after the duration at rest then you are fine. If not, then double that bank with two total batteries immediately so the batteries are still considered equal capacity. I doubt a third battery will be necessary with the described system.

With two total batteries only, the difference between a manual dual battery switch and a isolator (let's call this an ACR/VSR/voltage sensing relay) is primarily a matter of convenience. The ACR/VSR isolates and combines automatically. With the manual switch you will select the stereo bank #1 (for example) at rest and then select 'All/Both' before starting. You will select 'Off' when placed on the trailer and select 'All/Both' when splashed. So not a great deal to remember.

An ACR/VSR with a switch combination can be important for shore charging purposes.

I will get you some more info on the current batteries tonight. Setup has worked good so far, but I am just concerned with adding the extra amp and making sure its all powered well.

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black06VLX

One battery is a power-tech AGM battery appears to have no info on the battery for amp hours or cranking amps. Other battery that was the start battery is a deep cycle 925ca, 50 A.H. @ 20 hr rate, load test amps 300. Part number is a 34xcd orbital battery(exide)

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David

black06,

While a group 34 has a large numeric designation it is actually a smaller, shorter and lighter battery with less capacity then the standard group 24 for example.

A group 34 is typically 50 to 55 A/R, 65 A/H for a group 24, 85 A/H for a group 27, 95 A/H for a group 29, and 105 A/H for a group 31.

AGMs have numerous advantages but amp/hours versus cost is certainly not one of them.

If I had the large budget and used a smart shore charger, I would go AGM. But I would not return to a smaller group 34 unless the shorter height provided a unique fit solution. The more obvious value, at least in a A/H per cost ratio, would be with a standard lead acid wet battery.

So a group 24 starting battery is all that is needed. If you go with a group 31 on the dedicated stereo battery then you will nearly double your existing battery capacity and that would suggest that you'll get by with a total of two batteries per your usage description.

Here's is one more option. Maintain the existing manual dual battery switch and run a total of two identical true deep cycle group 31s. Then alternate the usage with your switch (by selecting either #1 or 2 when at rest) from weekend to weekend. This will extend the lifespan of the total battery system.

On another note, self-discharge for batteries stored in isolation is minimal over any period of a couple of weeks. But it is a real issue if you return the boat to storage with less than a full charge on both batteries. You must give the higher alternator voltage and subsequent battery surface charge time to dissipate before getting a realistic measurement, perhaps an hour will do it. If both batteries are not back up to 12.7 volts when placed into storage then a smart charger becomes essential. The charger use is important at the beginning of storage and not just prior to the next outing.

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black06VLX

This is the power tech battery, it's a group 24 David.

http://federalbattery.com/products/powertech-agm-battery-8a24-79-ah/

So I think going with 2 group 31's and switching between the two as you need would work. With that said what is a good on board charger that I could hook up for a couple to few hours after boating to give the batteries a top up?

I was also looking who makes a box to hold group 31 size batteries I can't find much for full enclosed boxes.

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David

black06,

You might begin with Atwood for the battery box & lid.

A ProSport 20 amp dual bank charger is a bit lite for two 31s with a collective 210 A/Hs. If your stereo battery is brought home at 11.8 volts or higher then it should be fine.

An Intellipower 30 amp triple bank charger would be the maximum (you would only use two banks).

Deka makes a great battery in both lead acid and AGM plus Interstate also has lead acid + AGMs.

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black06VLX

Thanks David. I am checking to see if I can find an intellipower 30amp charger locally in Canada.

I found some more old threads and just wanted to make sure I am correctly using your calcs for amp hours I found posted.

500W for the sub amp Class D + 450W for the AB speaker amp + 800W for the SYN4 Class H bridged to power the REV10's.

So amp total wattage = 1750 watts

1750 watts / 13 volts = 135 amps.

Now for amp efficiency is it safe to assume 60% on average between the amps? Should be more pessimistic?

135 amps / 0.60 = 224 amp/hrs.

Now that number would be assuming full power? Is this what I should be targetting for just the stereo bank? Starting to get worried I should skip the two 31's and go with two 27-29 interstates(AGM or wet) tied together and a dedicated start battery. I would get 170-190 AH from two group 29's I believe and I would run these batteries while on the lake. With this bank selected when boarding the alt. would be adding some charge back to them correct and the start battery is just sitting isolated due to the nature of the Perko switch.

I should be able to get a couple hours each night hook up to a battery charger before I have to move the boat, but if that now starts to become to large of a bank for the alt to charge effectively I might have to just live with a single group 31 battery and know I can sit for 1-2hrs tops while playing music at a modest level. I will be buying the intellipower 30 amp unit.

Before the tower amp addition it was only a 950 watt stereo setup. I have nearly doubled power now and ran the old system off that group 24 Powertech battery and the group 34. Usually ran both battery banks while sitting I believe.

Sorry to keep bothering you about this guys, I am probably way over thinking this, but I really appreciate the discussion and help.

Are most of you running the 3 and 4 battery setups sitting on the beach and hammering the system for quite some time?

Edited by black06VLX

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David

black06,

Get back to your realistic usage.

The amperage draw calculations aren't close.

Two of the three amplifiers decline in power at 13.0 volts and continue to decline as the supply voltage sags. You don't have 13.0 volts at rest....perhaps 12.7 to start and declining from there.

You are not drawing current at a level commensurate with a DC trolling motor or DC light bulb. Music is transient in nature, like AC, so your draw will be just a fraction of your calculation.

Two group 29s in parallel for the stereo bank and one group 24 for starting is a great choice and easily serviced by a 30 amp charger.

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black06VLX

How does this wiring diagram look to redo the factory wiring off the simple Perko(1, ALL, 2, OFF switch). JL 500/1 amp for sub, SYN4 for (2)REV10's and JL e6450 (6 channel for inboats)

I think I am just going to go with 2 SRM-29 or the PRO-29M interstate batteries for power, I play moderate enough so I think David was correct on not needing a huge battery reserve. Sounds like the SRM-29's are north of 115ah each so I should be covered.

Curious if I need a distribution block to split the engine ground to each negative terminal on the batteries?

I am sure I missed fuses on some lines also. Just please let me know what I messed up.

BoatWiring_zps5ce3e50e.jpg

Edited by black06VLX

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black06VLX

Anyone mind weighing in with my wiring layout?

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Bozboat

1) the amp ground block should tie back to one battery not both ?
2) battery two should ground to the negative post on battery one and battery one grounds to engine block vs two ground runs to the engine block?

and ground the head unit to same location as the amps

Edited by Bozboat

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black06VLX

1) the amp ground block should tie back to one battery not both ?

2) battery two should ground to the negative post on battery one and battery one grounds to engine block vs two ground runs to the engine block?

and ground the head unit to same location as the amps

Thank you very much.

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Bozboat

also need the purple wire that goes from the head unit to the amps that signals the amps to turn on and off. There is some discussion on here about using a relay from the wire on the head unit in between the head unit and the first amp. Shawndoggy and some of the other "electricians" suggested it and some point out that not using a relay may put you at risk of burning out that function on the head unit. I use one, but I am no expert and am just trying to follow along with the crew's advise.

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