Debate, lsv 23 with 350

[IXFE]

So are there any owners with current '14 lsv with 350's on this forum? Do you surf with pnp full and stock only? Can you get to 11mph with acceptable sluggish-ness? Most close out lsv's are 350 equipped this time of year.

Hopefully somebody will chime in... but I recently demo'd the new '15 VLX 350 with torque prop. We had the throttle pegged at 4k RPM and couldn't get it past 10.3mph.

My LSV 450 never had that problem. I could easily surf as fast as I wanted (usually around 12mph).

[thtrog]

In the last 2 boats I've had the LS3 and the new LSV I have on order will also have it. I can tell you the 350 will get the job done for most owners where altitude is not a factor. I've now got a '14 with the 350 while my boat is being built and have been pleasantly surprised. Last time out we surfed it with 3k pounds,4 people in the boat, 3 clicks of wedge at any speed desired (we ran 11.4). We then went to 4k pounds ballast and six people in the boat, it would only get to 11.2 mph, but by dropping the wedge 1 click, which was better and also lengthened the pocket (we surfed 11.6 - 12.0). This was with the 1235 prop, so I know it could improved. The first hit of the throttle I knew I didn't have the guts like the 450, but gets the job done. I'll try to get up some pictures

Edited September 12, 2014 by thtrog

[thtrog]

BTW the '14 LSV/350 is for sale...not sharing my experience to sell the boat, but it did get me thinking about the $$$ engine upgrade I have on order.

[Mr. Pink]

So are there any owners with current '14 lsv with 350's on this forum? Do you surf with pnp full and stock only? Can you get to 11mph with acceptable sluggish-ness? Most close out lsv's are 350 equipped this time of year.

I just recently did a demo of this boat and here were my findings and set up. These are not necessarily the ideal set up for each sport. I was just checking to see the performance of the 350.

Full factory ballast with pnp 550s in rear full wedge. 1235 prop. There were 3 people on the boat. Surf mode 12 mph 3600 rpm at 11.2 3400 rpm.

Out of surf mode boat was up on plane in seconds and can't remember what we topped out at if we even tried but know we were at 38 mph.

Then since I did not want to bring 4 or 5 of my friends with me we added a 900 lb sack and just set it on the floor. Obviously your friends would be spread out around the boat but this was the best I could do. I did all the same test and came up with about the same rpm. Sorry I did not write these down as they were pretty close. I do know on one pull for surfing the max rpm we hit 3700.

Obviously there are people on here that will put a lot more weight then the 550s. I can only tell you what I tested. The wake was great for both surfing and wakeboarding. Only you can decide how you will use the boat. In regards to resale understand that the people that prefer to max out ballast and friends will not be a fan of the 350 but there are also many people out there that are fine with factory ballast and PNP and family on the boat.

[augie09]

In the last 2 boats I've had the LS3 and the new LSV I have on order will also have it. I can tell you the 350 will get the job done for most owners where altitude is not a factor. I've now got a '14 with the 350 while my boat is being built and have been pleasantly surprised. Last time out we surfed it with 3k pounds,4 people in the boat, 3 clicks of wedge at any speed desired (we ran 11.4). We then went to 4k pounds ballast and six people in the boat, it would only get to 11.2 mph, but by dropping the wedge 1 click, which was better and also lengthened the pocket (we surfed 11.4 - 12.0). This was with the 1235 prop, so I know it could improved. The first hit of the throttle I knew I didn't guts like the 450, but gets the job done. I'll try to get up some pictures

That's good to hear. Myself and others see all the warning here to not get the 350, but also see 'it depends on how you'd use it'. There's lots of 450 owner saying how they use it, but not at lot of 350 owners saying it, so it's hard to know where our 'use' falls in the spectrum of usage types, lol.

Of course I plan to go test drive in next 14 days, but its good to hear 350 use cases.

From what I am gathering, just from reading, is (assuming correctly propped)

- under ~2.5k in people and ballast (beyond stock) the 350 is fine in all scenarios

- under ~3.5k in people and ballast (beyond stock) the 350 will be sluggish, but still work fine

- over 4k people and ballast (beyond stock) the 350 is toast and personal regrets start happening

Does that sound like a fair statement?

I trust your assessment because I know how Benj rides and I am not at his level. Glad to hear he is back at it! That's awesome.

Edited September 12, 2014 by augie09

[teamerickson]

So are there any owners with current '14 lsv with 350's on this forum? Do you surf with pnp full and stock only? Can you get to 11mph with acceptable sluggish-ness? Most close out lsv's are 350 equipped this time of year.

I considered getting a 14 LSV before settling on the T22. I asked the same questions. Check with Stevo, he was helpful.

[augie09]

I just recently did a demo of this boat and here were my findings and set up. These are not necessarily the ideal set up for each sport. I was just checking to see the performance of the 350.

Full factory ballast with pnp 550s in rear full wedge. 1235 prop. There were 3 people on the boat. Surf mode 12 mph 3600 rpm at 11.2 3400 rpm.

Out of surf mode boat was up on plane in seconds and can't remember what we topped out at if we even tried but know we were at 38 mph.

Then since I did not want to bring 4 or 5 of my friends with me we added a 900 lb sack and just set it on the floor. Obviously your friends would be spread out around the boat but this was the best I could do. I did all the same test and came up with about the same rpm. Sorry I did not write these down as they were pretty close. I do know on one pull for surfing the max rpm we hit 3700.

Obviously there are people on here that will put a lot more weight then the 550s. I can only tell you what I tested. The wake was great for both surfing and wakeboarding. Only you can decide how you will use the boat. In regards to resale understand that the people that prefer to max out ballast and friends will not be a fan of the 350 but there are also many people out there that are fine with factory ballast and PNP and family on the boat.

Thanks. I am confident the wakeboard side will be just fine with a 350. Progressing through inverts and spins is going to depend solely on me and technique and not the size of the wake beyond the stock ballast with maybe 2k additional ballast. And tthrog and yourself confirm at that weight, the 350 is perfectly fine.

I am less experienced with surfing and don't know 'how i'd use it'. Surfing will become an activity we do more and more once we have the new boat. And there's the rub. I can't know until I spend a season really doing it and playing around. The issue I guess for me is not second guessing the 350, but needing to get educated on surfing and what I would be missing in the wave with only 4k in people/ballast vs 6k+. It took a season years ago to really learn that with wake boarding, but now I know what I need and what is too much for my skill level. I do think I'd progress much much faster at surfing since major injuries are less likely.

Edited September 12, 2014 by augie09

[thtrog]

Auggie, To be clear I was including 1350# stock ballast in the numbers I gave. Mr. Pink pretty much shared the same results running 3350#, but I had the weight more to bow. I think your assumptions are correct at the 4k mark, just reduce ballast by people weight to stay at that target and I think you will be pleased. Good luck on your demo!

[augie09]

Auggie, To be clear I was including 1350# stock ballast in the numbers I gave. Mr. Pink pretty much shared the same results running 3350#, but I had the weight more to bow. I think your assumptions are correct at the 4k mark, just reduce ballast by people weight to stay at that target and I think you will be pleased. Good luck on your demo!

Ah, good to know.

[wheelman]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the 409 in the new lsv heavily weighted?

[TallRedRider]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the 409 in the new lsv heavily weighted?

We went with 750's in the rear both full on top of stock ballast. I think we had virtually no front ballast on a 2015 with the 409. We easily got up to plane with that. It was running close to 4,000 RPM. Still bugged that I don't know which prop. I suspect that is not considered 'heavily weighted' by many on this board. I would have really liked some weight up front. It seemed very rear heavy, but the feedback I am getting is that surfgate boats need to be more rear heavy. It might have actually surfed at a lower RPM with some weight up front.

[Mr. Pink]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the 409 in the new lsv heavily weighted?

I will let others correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is you are going to see no difference in the 409 vs 350 for surfing. These motors are about the same on the low end. You will see about 10% increase on the high end for cruising the lake. While the 409 will make you feel better it really is not worth the increase in price unless you want to cruise the lake a little faster.

[pkh]

Does anyone have any first hand experience with the 409 in the new lsv heavily weighted?

I have '13 409 + 2315 and spend some time driving 350 and there is a difference. I have never had issues until I am fully slammed at altitude I have to back off on wedge to make 11.4mph surfing.

When I first drove the '14 LSV it was obvious it was a different beast and was going to need more engine. I am not sure the 409 would be good enough, so I am opting for LS3.

On the whole 350 debate I think it can be done but it will struggle. Being underpowered means:

- Running less wedge

- Needing more of a frontal weight bias

- Lower possible top speed surfing weighted

- Even less fun at high altitude (see threads of guys struggling even with LS3 + 2315)

I think listed surfing / pre-2014 when boats were smaller the big engine thing may have been more about flexing, not as necessary, but now becoming a real requirement.

Edited September 13, 2014 by pkh

[wheelman]

How high of altitude are you talking? I'm at see level to 800 above.

[pkh]

How high of altitude are you talking? I'm at see level to 800 above.

I am talking about 5000' lakes ...

[augie09]

BTW the '14 LSV/350 is for sale...not sharing my experience to sell the boat, but it did get me thinking about the $$$ engine upgrade I have on order.

Is it this one?

http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=45583

[nyryan2001]

Is it this one?

http://www.onlyinboards.com/Details.aspx?ID=45583

So looking at that one... Hold the big OEM stereo and the metal flake.... Then the 450hp would have been just $3-4k more??

[thtrog]

So looking at that one... Hold the big OEM stereo and the metal flake.... Then the 450hp would have been just $3-4k more??

Or buy Docs boat..this was a stock boat typical of what my dealer orders and sells to satisfied owners. Add about 3k more for the LS3 in 2015, closed loop is now standard.

Edited September 13, 2014 by thtrog

[DocPhil]

I don't know how I missed this thread

It boggles my mind that we will spend 100K on these boats yet have an endless debate about if these stock motors are "enough". 4 grand for metal flake? NO PROBLEM. 3 grand for a stereo system? SURE! 5 grand on various trinkets and unecessary items? YES!

However, when it comes to spending 8-10K on the GUTS of the boat and never having to worry about enough power the debate rages on and on.....

Also, I am learning the benefits of a semi closed cooled engine right now. I can shove a bilge heater in my boat and extend the season. It is easier to winterize, no worries about a cracked heater core, and the heater works better.

If someone told me I could go back and buy a 350 or 409 for 15K less than wait I paid, I wouldn't agree. The motor is such a no brainer upgrade it would be foolish not to get it.

Edited September 13, 2014 by DocPhil

[begeland]

I priced it out a month or so ago on a 22VLX... By skipping the 4 wet-sounds tower speakers, 2 amps, and transom remote for those speakers, you save enough $ to nearly get an LS3.

[seth9180]