Engine Lubrication on a Listed Boat

[Malibudude]

the other difference between an upside down jeep and a listed boat is that the boat is under maximum load while listed, while I doubt the jeep is (unless you are doing loops inside a giant full-pipe?).

Nor will a Jeep be in a listed position for hours on end and high rpm's. Yes the weighing of our boats listing to one side is a big concern in the longevity of our engines. according to both Malibu and Indmar for years. The oil pump isn't designed to compensate for the increase angle of the engine for extended periods of time hence, the design of surfgate to mitigate those concerns among other increased safety elements during operation. Hence the design changes in the engine oil pan and means to surf w/o the need to list (also a safety factor). A boat not properly prop'd will do more damage quicker.

Previous discussion

[martinarcher]

the other difference between an upside down jeep and a listed boat is that the boat is under maximum load while listed, while I doubt the jeep is (unless you are doing loops inside a giant full-pipe?).

Yeah but the centrifugal force would keep the oil at the bottom of the pan and the sump covered.

[Lance B. Johnson]

As long as the pump is getting oil and not air all is good in that dept. other concerns could be with cooling though.

So many hours listed on lcrs and monsoons with no ill effects. No extra oil needed.

[oldjeep]

Kind of depends on the circumstance of a little while, if the engine is running and stops picking up oil for a second it'd probably be fine. If you spend a long time filling up ballasts and over listing your boat and start it and all the pickup gets is air my guess is that motor would have a pretty short life expectancy after that, even if you caught it right away.

Any idea how many degrees to the side you have to run before the pickup comes out of the oil? Hint, the gunnel will be under water and the boat headed for the bottom

[Lance B. Johnson]

Nor will a Jeep be in a listed position for hours on end and high rpm's. Yes the weighing of our boats listing to one side is a big concern in the longevity of our engines. according to both Malibu and Indmar for years. The oil pump isn't designed to compensate for the increase angle of the engine for extended periods of time hence, the design of surfgate to mitigate those concerns among other increased safety elements during operation. Hence the design changes in the engine oil pan and means to surf w/o the need to list (also a safety factor). A boat not properly prop'd will do more damage quicker.

Previous discussion

I know what indmar and malibu say and I know why they say it. But I also know what real life is.

Wait, you surf---- have you had to replace bearings, cranks etc? Ive seen you and your boat equally listed

[Lance B. Johnson]

Anyway I do it all the time and lose zero hours of sleep over it.

[Fman]

Anyway I do it all the time and lose zero hours of sleep over it.

How much weight do you use while surfing listed?

[Malibudude]

I know what indmar and malibu say and I know why they say it. But I also know what real life is.

Wait, you surf---- have you had to replace bearings, cranks etc? Ive seen you and your boat equally listed

Exactly, was simply stating there was concern, but in reality I've been surfing for years w/o any issues. Wait I didn't weigh it down that much with every bag I own....

[Woodski]

There is another issue with an engine at a high angle and oil level, crank whipping of the oil (normally due to overfill issues). When a spinning crank dips in the oil it ends up creating a froth that is highly aerated. This problem then manifests itself in aerated oil in the bearings thus not able to withstand high loads. The aerated oil is much hotter than non aerated oil and the aeration simply compounds the volume or initial high level problem. Just make sure you don't overfill thinking by just keeping the oil pump suction bell in the oil (which of course is a really good thing) you are home free you might end up causing a problem by having too much oil. I don't know the list angles being run, but the combination of list and tilt might allow the oil level to be over the windage tray at the low corner. It makes a lot of sense that a specific windage tray would be needed to control oil level at high tilt angles.

Of course the elegant solution would be a dry sump. That is how the C-6 Corvette solved that very problem for the track day application due to G loads.

[dfarhood]

Any idea how many degrees to the side you have to run before the pickup comes out of the oil? Hint, the gunnel will be under water and the boat headed for the bottom

Yeah unless you're low enough on oil that you should already have problems I wouldn't think it'd be an issue. My point was more about loss of oil pressure for even short periods of time having consequences. While it is circumstantial, care to ask how I know this...

Also this error didn't really have to do with me, not saying I necessarily would have caught it, but it wasn't my fault

And I don't think surfing is likely to cause this kind of issue, just figured I'd bring it up while we are on the whole lack of oil pressure issue.

[WheelerWake]

Yeah unless you're low enough on oil that you should already have problems I wouldn't think it'd be an issue. My point was more about loss of oil pressure for even short periods of time having consequences. While it is circumstantial, care to ask how I know this...

Also this error didn't really have to do with me, not saying I necessarily would have caught it, but it wasn't my fault

And I don't think surfing is likely to cause this kind of issue, just figured I'd bring it up while we are on the whole lack of oil pressure issue.

Do you know what caused that? Looks like too little piston - cylinder wall clearance (marine applications call for more clearance then automotive). The rod bearings don't look bad, those usually go long before scuffing pistons with no oil pressure.

Edited March 28, 2014 by WheelerWake

[747captain]

Many of our smart phones have an App that shows angles.

Maybe this boating season (if there is one) we could measure and post.

Both for Listed and Surfgate.

I actually heard this issue from a fellow G23 owner maybe just an issue with there boat engines Nyran ??

[Lance B. Johnson]

Bearings good and no heat damage to the big end of connecting rod. Pistons aren't lubed because of OP. I'd be looking further into this failure and start pointing fingers at the builder maybe.

[Bill_AirJunky]

Anyway I do it all the time and lose zero hours of sleep over it.

Aren't you an automotive shop teacher too?

So what other circumstances do you know of where an engine having problems when it's not running level? And to what degree are they leaning?

Only time I saw a problem myself was when a buddy rolled his Ford pickup on it's side. The engine ran while it was on it's side....... for a minute or two. Eventually it started spewing oil everywhere & smoked like crazy. It still ran after that, but I'd be willing to bet it's life was dramatically reduced.

[Lance B. Johnson]

Right I teach automotives. Listing a boat doesn't cause any loss in oil pressure so no problem. Other cases would be 4x4 and race cars. Usually race cars would have a baffled oil pan.

Or.....

It could be a Toyota with a sludge problem and clogged pick up screen just like the corolla I fixed. I've seen same problem in camrys and Sienna's. Not sure why Toyota have this disease maybe inadequate Pcv systems?

[sledandski]

To help me sleep a little better I brought a pitcher of water out on the boat with me that was like a oval with flat sides when we were surfing. With the boat level on the trailer I placed the half full pitcher on the floor of the boat and marked a line across the side. Then with the boat in the water I marked another line. Then I marked a line while surfing. I have a home built surf gate so I was only worried about the front to back angle. After this I took some measurements of the oil pan and sketched it out. Finally I calculated the oil level in the pan when full and then at an angle. What I found is that in the middle of the deep portion of the pan I had about 2.5" of oil depth and lost about a 1/2" when a quart down. These were just rough numbers and there were various factors I did not add in but all of them would have made the oil level higher and not lower. So I think this is a conservative estimate. With 0 deg being the boat on the trailer I was leaning 2 deg back when simply floating in the water and I was 14deg back when surfing. I was running 800lbs in the back, wedge and 550 in the ski locker along with 6 people in the boat and none in the bow.

Couple of the things I did not take into account were the engine leaning forward in the boat, the radius on the corners of the oil pan or the volume of anything that would be in the pan. All of these would increase the oil depth at the pickup.

Just my 2 cents

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[Fman]

If you have a Surfgate system you will never have any issues, in comparison to a listed boat, its about as level as you can get. No worse than pulling a wake boarder, another great feature about Surfgate.

[Lance B. Johnson]

Uhm, you'll never have problems listed either That's what we are talking about.

[Lance B. Johnson]

How much weight do you use while surfing listed?

2K.

[ozsurf]

2K.

Ruff dog can you show me what that looks like?

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[dfarhood]

Do you know what caused that? Looks like too little piston - cylinder wall clearance (marine applications call for more clearance then automotive). The rod bearings don't look bad, those usually go long before scuffing pistons with no oil pressure.

Yes, this was an automotive engine, just posted the pictures because lack of oil pressure was brought up. Wanted to show, while not necessarily likely to be caused from surfing it's definitely not something you want to have happen.

Bearings good and no heat damage to the big end of connecting rod. Pistons aren't lubed because of OP. I'd be looking further into this failure and start pointing fingers at the builder maybe.

We have a winner.

OK so I guess about 10 years ago, my dad, myself and a friend built a few motors. I wasn't really involved on this one because I was busy with school. What ended up happening though was that they bought an engine block from a local engine builder and it was missing one of the plugs on the front of the block and neither of them noticed. First start there was no oil pressure and they shut it down almost immediately. Tore it down, found the issue, and put it back together. The damage was already done but it didn't really show up until after a few more months of running it (with oil pressure now). Got to the point of audible piston slap which led to the final tear down and our friend giving my dad this "award" at the next Christmas party.

While the mistakes suck at the time, what kind of lame stories would we all have without them... besides this one wasn't me

[Fman]

Ruff dog can you show me what that looks like?

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Yes I would also like to see that configuration. My friend has a 2011 VLX, most are telling him he needs close to 3k. Hard tanks full, 750 locker, 400 seat, 400 bow plus wedge.

[Lance B. Johnson]

Ruff dog can you show me what that looks like?Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Not sure I understand what you want? If I snapped a pic all you would see is a 450 on the floor and a 450 in the bow.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Ruffdog

[ozsurf]

Not sure I understand what you want? If I snapped a pic all you would see is a 450 on the floor and a 450 in the bow.

"Sorry" I meant how it sits in the water.

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[Lance B. Johnson]

Gotcha. Well for comparison purposes it would be apples and oranges. My little vride is much smaller than your vlxs. Rub rail is in the water at the rear corner.