another "help me pick a sub" thread

[shawndoggy]

I need recommendations for the best*** sub on 2ft3 (gross!) or less with 1200w @ 2ohms.

I am currently running an image dynamics IDQ12d4v3. This is the most musical sub I've ever owned and I REALLY like it. It's in a 1ft3 sealed box, running on 600w (JL XD600/1). This sub just sounds fantastic. I just wish it had a little more output to keep up with my four rev10s getting 400w per can. The sub just runs out of steam when the towers are screaming.

So I've got a new amp (arc ks 1200.1), and I'm looking for sub candidates. I tend to prefer the tight control of a sealed sub, but I'm willing to try ported if the sub stays musical and isn't a one note wonder. Also note that ported might not be that viable given my very small space constraints.

One of the subs I've been considering is the JBL W15GTi-mkii, which allegedly can be run in a 1.5ft3 sealed box. I've yet to find a review of that sub in that box though, so I'm a little suspicious.

Other contenders?

(***best for me MUST be musical and not just a SPL one note wonder. Sure I like to let the boom out from time to time, but I don't want to have a sub that I don't enjoy listening to with all music).

Edited February 7, 2014 by shawndoggy

[jk13]

Room for a second IDQ?

[shawndoggy]

Room for a second IDQ?

Not on the same plane -- MB has a goofy "behind the driver" factory sub that is built in to a poorly sealed box behind the driver's seat. It's a JL10w0 I think. I put the IDQ in under the helm about a month after getting the boat and the 10 has been unpowered since then.

That behind-the-driver box could potentially be sealed up better and the cutout expanded to accommodate a second sealed 12. But then I'd have 2x12s firing at each other with the driver in the middle. Seems less than ideal, no?

[Murphy8166]

Boston Acoustic SPG 555.

So many options with a ported box or sealed box with tunable radiator. You can find them new on ebay for mid 300's

Edited February 7, 2014 by Murphy8166

[nyryan2001]

going up by only 600w isnt going to double your bass or output.... David could chime in here on the physics.... doubling your power only gives you like 20-30% percieved noticable difference.

But since you already invested in that Arc 1200..... squeeze every f'n drop out of it you can.

13W7 at .75 ohms. That Arc amp can do it, being at .75 it'd bring your watts up from 1200ish to right around 14-1500w at 14V.

The high excursion and sq of the W7, the extra 800w.... and that extra inch of woofer cone...combined would give you your best result as you described.... or let you run it at 60% vs 90% of a 1200w 12".

No doubt pricey, but no doubt sq and hammer down capability.

going the budget route.... and an out of the box consideration...I would take a hard look at the Fi Q12 at $280. Ive been very impressed with Fi...just put a different model in my boat...there are benefits to going with a small company that handbuilds all of their subs and thats ALL that they do, dust cap color is customizable... and each sub is custom bulit based on how you use it.

[robtr8]

GTi's have a huge frame, may be tough to fit?

I was thinking about a triple 5 when I had Pete designing my under dash box. He said to stick with my L5.

These guys have been getting some notice: http://www.gz-usa.com/subwoofers/23/hydrogen-gzhw-30x/

I found a reference to that IDQ sub having some cracking issues in the frame. You may want to check it out. http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/system-design-help-me-choose-equipment-my-car/154554-issues-idq12d4-v3.html

[jk13]

All good suggestions above for sure. Love the 555 if you can find one, 13w7 we all know sounds great, Fi is definitely worth a look as well as Ground Zero.

But I think more displacement along with your upgraded power is the way to go. I found your pics on MBBO and think you may have the room with some more cutting of that kick panel--without losing too much leg room. Worth busting out the tape measure for, anyway. Maybe a slight v-shape or angle will be necessary, or even side or up-firing. Left low/right high on the plane it's on now? Lots of possibilities there. Yes, making the behind the driver sub location wouldn't be as ideal but could also work.

Remember when you were a kid--"if you love it so much why don't you marry it?" Well, now you can marry two of them. And not end up with something you might not like as much.

[martinarcher]

Shawn....here's an old post of mine that was lost. I have an older TC Sounds sub in my boat. It's the TC3HP (TC-3000). I know some of their new subs absolutely rock out as well. Paired with the 12" Passibe Radiator this is the loudest most musical sub I have ever listened to. It's being pushed by a JL Audio 1000/1.

Here's the old post I saved.....

Well everyone, I spent all day installing stereo equipment in the boat. It was a long, but fun day. One more day and I'll have it all done. The majority of it is done. I ran all my power wire, remote turn on wire, and signal wires today and have the amps sitting on top of the seat bases that they will eventually be mounted under.

I built a sub box today too. I've been emailing Thilo from TC Sounds and I ended up buying one of their passive radiators and built a 1.3 cu ft box I designed with WinISD. It was a tight fit to get both the sub and the PR in the box, but they both fit well. I built it from 3/4" birch ply. It's screwed glued together and then sealed with silicone. It's also braced internally. It's a really stout box and I am happy with how it turned out. The front panel is double layered. The first layer is the size of the box itself. The second/top layer replaces the original kick panel and finishes the box off once it's under the drivers footwell.

The bad news is I designed the height of the box to fit perfectly under the helm. I forgot to add the height of the passive radiator to the overall height when designing the box. Oh well, I just have to slide the box in and mount the PR in the box after it's under the dash.

I got it all wired up in the boat about 1:00 AM and had a test listen. Wow. What a sub! This thing rocks. I can't believe how accurate it is and how musical it is! Instead of the normal sub test songs that have the hard hitting bass I was listening to songs with tight kick drums, walking bass lines, and wide bass lines. Don't get me wrong, if you want this thing to slam, it will absolutely rock. I'm pretty sure with the right song it would throw ripples in the water. I'm just really pumped that it not only gets loud, but says very musical and is a joy to listen to.

Right before I came in I hung the box up and coated it with two coats of roll on bedliner. I'm still debating on what will finish the front of the box off. The vinyl I used on the box on the lats boat turned out really nice and I might have to do that again. The carpet just doesn't seem to cut it when wrapping it in vinyl is so easy. Who knows, it might end up carpeted. I dunno....I can't decide. Any opinions?


Here's some pics....

Game on!

[martinarcher]

Here's the WinISD plot of the sub frequency response if it helps...

and a vid my buddy took of it throwing some water off the boat.

[David]

Start with the boat and maximum external enclosure displacement to see what your real options are.

I agree with avoiding a senario where two woofers are a distance apart firing at one another. That's phase soup in any location but one.

Acoustic/air suspension (small sealed) is tight with the right driver and tuned to the right Qtc (system 'Q' of the combined woofer and box). AS has the most deep bass extension and the softest deep bass roll-off but it starts rolling off much higher. So the extension isn't as apparent, especially in an open boat.

Bass-reflex can sound just as musical as AS if you do a well damped alignment. You'll get about +3 dB output in the meat of the bass and another 1/3rd octave of extension before reaching its -3 dB half power point. Once it does begin its decline it does roll off at a higher rate. A majority of high end home speakers and studio monitors are bass-reflex. B&W. Dali. Wilson Audio. Focal. etc. etc. etc.

When someone spends $15 to $200K on a pair of speakers, believe me, they have excellent tonal construction. There is no one more particular than this buying group. They're definitely not listening to Rap and looking for boom. However, you can turn a ported system into a peaky one note resonator if that's the effect you're after, and I know you're not. Even some of the woofer manufacturers advocate that. But they're addressing their specific market. If you want quality, it's going to be in the design and build execution and using the correct driver.

A passive bass radiator can give you the extension of bass-reflex but in a more compact enclosure, perhaps even deeper extension in a very large enclosure which is not practical in a boat. A PBR, once below its tuning frequency, also rolls off at the highest rate. So when its done its really done. Again, not too apparent in an open boat if designed right. This type of woofer loading is like bass-reflex in the sense that the quality of sound will be in the execution. It's more involved than just picking a target 'Q'. Don't mix and match. If you do this, go with a driver and PBR from the same company...someone who has it really dialed in. Boston Acoustic did it right while they were in the raw driver business.

I have some comments on raw drivers....but later.

[shawndoggy]

LOL, David, I've read all that stuff from you and I know what to expect... what I'm looking for is a recommendation for a musical sub with a bit more output on 1200w.

Regarding the 2ft3 limit, this is really driven by the mrs. The space under our helm is a basshead's delight. It's huge. So huge in fact that that's where our cooler goes on the boat. So when applying shawndoggy's iron law (don't make wife mad because of my stereo problem), I really can't get away with any bigger. Just can't. 2 cubes is it, max, and 1.5 would be even better. These are gross numbers, so port displacement must be included.

Thanks for the TC Sounds reference MA.... looks interesting, and the PR concept has always intrigued me.

SPG555s have been on my radar for a long time, but they've been out of production so long that I worry about support and parts availability. But if one fell in my lap with the radiator too, I'd use it in a heartbeat.

[Bawshogg]

I just have one thing to add. 15's are really neat.

[shawndoggy]

All good suggestions above for sure. Love the 555 if you can find one, 13w7 we all know sounds great, Fi is definitely worth a look as well as Ground Zero.

But I think more displacement along with your upgraded power is the way to go. I found your pics on MBBO and think you may have the room with some more cutting of that kick panel--without losing too much leg room. Worth busting out the tape measure for, anyway. Maybe a slight v-shape or angle will be necessary, or even side or up-firing. Left low/right high on the plane it's on now? Lots of possibilities there. Yes, making the behind the driver sub location wouldn't be as ideal but could also work.

Remember when you were a kid--"if you love it so much why don't you marry it?" Well, now you can marry two of them. And not end up with something you might not like as much.

I hadn't really thought about adding a second. The sub does take a small box. hmmm.... maybe a hybrid mdf / fiberglass "exploding volcano" sealed box with 2 cubes?

[martinarcher]

No problem. I think with a TC sub and PR and a few emails with Thilo you would be a very happy camper under 2 cubes. I'm a sticker for musicality of a sub and HATE 1 note wonder subs. BTW... You're a smart man for leaving the Mrs have her cooler space. Engineering it right means you can have a loud musical sub and a happy wife too.

[shawndoggy]

I've got room for days down there....

please forgive messy wiring...

[martinarcher]

You need a Yetti cooler....it would be big enough for that spot and keep drinks cold for days.

[Bawshogg]

You park your truck in there when it's raining?

I would love that much free real estate. Not a bu out there with a yard like that. Slot ported , side firing 15" all the way ..........if it was mine.

[robtr8]

So it's decided. Shawn will have an SQL 15. Candidates?

http://www.woofersetc.com/p-4944-40kx-focal-16-1000-watt-dvc-k2-power-subwoofer.aspx (JK)

http://www.parts-express.com/tc-sounds-axis-15q1-15-quad-vc-subwoofer--293-642

http://gz-usa.com/subwoofers/24/hydrogen-gzhw-38x/1256020015.pdf (I'm partial to AL cones)

http://www.woofersetc.com/p-2534-swr-1542d-alpine-15-type-r-2000-watt-dual-4-ohm-subwoofer.aspx

http://www.woofersetc.com/p-11707-idmax15-v4-d4-image-dynamics-15-dual-4-ohm-idmax-v4-series-subwoofer.aspx

[Murphy8166]

You park your truck in there when it's raining?

I would love that much free real estate. Not a bu out there with a yard like that. Slot ported , side firing 15" all the way ..........if it was mine.

Are you firing the slot and the woofer into the side or the woofer into the side and the slot into the driver. Another thing that I have heard is to angle the baffle that the sub is mounted on so that it angels out just a bit into the boat

[Murphy8166]

You know - it is very refreshing to see MA use of the PR and a couple positive comments on Woofers in small enclosures with PR's.

I think this really has a place in the marine application where space is limited.

[Murphy8166]

MA - did you ever think about firing the woofer into the side of the boat and have the PR exit into the drivers seat area?

"the wheels are turning"

[nyryan2001]

Shawn, why are you opposed to a 15" ?

[shawndoggy]

Ryan, I'm not opposed to a 15 at all -- if you read my OP, the JBLw15gti is on the short list. What I am opposed to is a giant box. I really don't want to go more than 2 cubic feet (gross) max.

[robtr8]

'nother one.

http://www.hertzaudiovideo.com/Doc/pdf_hx380d.pdf

[Vettesetter]

Couldn't help myself

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7566/48jackhammerescalade.jpg

http://international.mtx.com/jackhammer-car-subwoofer

Edited February 8, 2014 by Vettesetter Z06