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What engine would you put in your boat?


Michigan boarder

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Good thought, I just looked and didn't see anything good. Some older ones, 1996 - 2000 range. I would be hesitant anyway to go thru all this with an engine that "ran well when we took it out". Unless I knew the guy.

That IS the range AFAIK.... the venerable "modern" vortec 5.7 only went in vehicles from 06-00 (or so... I'm sure Nitrousbird knows the exact dates), but has lived on in boats for a lot longer.

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@Michigan boarder: thanks, another plot twist idea for you. Not quite as potent as fast burn heads but the key upgrade in SBC's (small block chevy's) happened in 1996 with the introduction of the Vortec (be careful many people call non Vortec stuff by that name), so you could find an older or post 1996 C/K pickup truck engine and use that as a base for your engine swap. It will have iron heads, but the higher flow vortec ports. That might be a very economical way to go, either via crate or junkyard if you so desire. This will get you over the 300 hp threshold with the standard marine cam (which is different from the automotive/truck or ZZ4 cam). In order, the automotive will be the mildest, marine next and ZZ4 more aggressive but will provide a good idle and plenty of holeshot (enough to rattle the arm joints!). Your swap would include ignition components, starter, all the t-stat stuff, and a carbed intake manifold if you want to avoid the EFI hassles in a simple swap.

I strongly suggest getting your hands on or use the internet for the GM Performance Parts catalog, it goes through all the crate engines available. ZZ4 is actually what you want to look for. The ZZ4 and fast burn units will bump the compression ratio up to 10:1 from 9.4:1 so you have to think about your fuel quality.

Note: ZZ4 crate engine on page 96 of the GM Perf Parts catalog.

PS: MB - that catalog for you would rival a ... mag to a high school kid, and yes every engine has a picture:)

Edited by Woodski
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@Michigan boarder: I had the iron exhaust manifolds on for only a year before I went with the aluminum ones, I did have to grind the ports to match the D shaped exhaust port on the head. One key element for me was the weight savings, once I started down that path and noticed the wake improvement, I just kept going... exhaust manifolds (pair) were worth a 90# savings, heads (pair) are 50#.

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Woodski - I tried downloading the 2013 PDF, it's huge. Going to do that when I leave for the day. I've seen the ZZ4 engine as a crate engine in several sites, but they all say "not disigned nor intended for marine use". Again, that is just because they are running aluminum manifolds, correct? So let's say that's the engine I go with. How does this look:

1)Summit crate engine assembly, ZZ4 355hp $4,410 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-24502609/overview/

2)New carb $400

3)Use my rebuilt starter

4)New mechanical fuel pump

5)Swap out my oil pan

6)Exhaust manifolds - you are running stainless, is that the header-type? For $2k?

7)How do you manage the exhaust from the silencer back? I would replace that hose with 4"? Do you eliminate the silencer?

8)What about balancing, what do I need for that?

I'm already at $6,810, quite a bit more than the stroker 383.

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MB

Item number 1 did you see:

Notes: This engine is not designed, nor intended to be used in any marine applications. Designed for pre-1976 street vehicles or any off-road vehicle. Engines installed in vehicles registered and normally operated outside of the United States carry no warranty.

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@Woodski - thanks for the tip on Michigan Motorz. I spoke with a guy there, nice, seemed pretty smart. He knows the Malibu line, they personally own a Nautique, surfs, skis, understands the need for hole-shot as well as top end for footing, etc. So we went thru the history of the boat, our usage, what we hope to do in the future and all that stuff. I started out with some questions about ZZ4 cams and fast burn heads,the 383, and he pretty quickly discouraged all of that. He kept pointing back to reliability. Saying they could do anything we want to an engine, but if we stick with a basic package then they can warranty it and he felt, based on my usage and lifestyle with the boat, that we should go with their 5700-I bronze unit, found here: http://www.michiganmotorz.com/vortec-marine-engine-bronze-package-19672013-replacement-p-59.html. 315hp.

Meh.

Realistically, I think I should have at least 350hp power plant. Then I am up to date with the other 2000+ year boats out there.

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So I could do the above for $4,049 shipped to me or I could do this.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MLL-MBP3830CT/

Free shipping so it's at $4,395 plus:

carb $400

water pump $100

harmonic balancer $50? (old one won't work, right?)

flywheel (use my old, right?)

air cleaner (use my old)

plugs $35

wires $50

cap & rotor $85

starter (use my old, recently rebuilt)

some gaskets

Anything else? Am I missing something? If I had a guy, and could build the ZZ3 I think I would. But I don't, so I need to stick with the bolt-on and/or drop-in solutions. Will my stock exhaust manifolds work with the lopey cam, or is it at risk of sucking water back in?

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MB

Item number 1 did you see:

Notes: This engine is not designed, nor intended to be used in any marine applications. Designed for pre-1976 street vehicles or any off-road vehicle. Engines installed in vehicles registered and normally operated outside of the United States carry no warranty.

Yeah, I saw that. Cuz of the aluminum heads, I assume. But yeah - I put that on my boat, then something goes wrong, and I've got no warranty.

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Boat engines like to have windage trays for reducing oil interaction with the crank. Not all crate engines have that.

Wow! First time I've heard the term "windage tray". Lots of info out there on Google. That is definitely a question I will be asking whomever does the build.

As a side note, I ran into a friend at the Friday night football game tonight that "has a boat engine guy" to hook me up with....a real good dude he's worked with for years, and they've been talking about upgrading his Prostar when the time is right. So I'll see what he thinks too, maybe we'll be able to make that ZZ4 after all!

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ok, so what is a "windage tray"?

When the engine is revving all of those connecting rods and crank lobs spinning creates a vortex of wind. That wind can displace the oil enough to starve or cavitate the oil pump. The tray is a piece of sheet metal that is mounted close to the crank that separates the bottom of the sump from the...wait for it....windage.

Edit: changed the font...why does this thing do that sporadically?

Edited by Michigan boarder
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When the engine is revving all of those connecting rods and crank lobs spinning creates a vortex of wind. That wind can displace the oil enough to starve or cavitate the oil pump. The tray is a piece of sheet metal that is mounted close to the crank that separates the bottom of the sump from the...wait for it....windage.

Edit: changed the font...why does this thing do that sporadically?

If you've copied/pasted from anywhere else.....Word, another website, whatever, that may have formatting attached to it (I think that's what happened).....the editor will pick up the formatting. If you want to paste plain text, hit the little switch in the upper left hand corner of the editor, then paste it in the box. That will paste plain text, & you can switch it back to get the rich text editor.

  • Like 1
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Re the windage tray, not a big deal. If you want it , its a bolt on piece of tin that just requires different main bearing bolts. Really just designed for high rpms and lowering the oil drag/friction. Not sure you will get anything out of a windage tray below 6000 rpms though and a 383 isn't going there anyways. Also I don't see the logic in reliability vs the stock motor as a crate 383 will be just as reliable, maybe some question in your combination and fine tuning and once you get it set up right you will not turn back. Also with less than 100 hrs a year I wouldnt be concerned with the alum heads either.

I'm running a 383 in my 70 Camaro and I am very impressed with that combo.It pulls like a big block and hard to 5500

  • Like 1
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This is so timely for me, ha. My main boating pal of close to 40 years and I just recently for the umteenth time put another sweet big block in his Eliminator.

Normally supercharged, overdriven, Iron only for him. He would be screaming big block is the only way to go in any boat, lol. This latest install however is a 454 new crate engine, small carb like an 850. 3 speed automatic, manual shift. Cream puff.

Good luck, keep us posted,

Steve B.

  • Like 2
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1)Summit crate engine assembly, ZZ4 355hp $4,410 http://www.summitrac...02609/overview/


2)New carb $400


3)Use my rebuilt starter


4)New mechanical fuel pump


5)Swap out my oil pan


6)Exhaust manifolds - you are running stainless, is that the header-type? For $2k?


7)How do you manage the exhaust from the silencer back? I would replace that hose with 4"? Do you eliminate the silencer?


8)What about balancing, what do I need for that?



To answer the questions


1. Summitt is usually pretty cheap, Scroggins Dickey tends to be the crate engine specialist, they are in Texas, check them out.


2. why would you not use your current one? The Weber version is a bit better than the Carter or Edelbrock one and is already Marine ready. simply rebuild it It is a spreadbore so remember that when getting an intake manifold


3. 10-4 on the starter, why not use your existing marine fuel pump also?


4. Yes on the oil pan, it will have a windage tray built in, main reason is the engine tilt angle, boats don't pull enough g load to slosh the oil around but the angle & accel bowrise can cause too much oil to go up the back of the engine. The windage tray is designed to keep the crank from frothing the oil at higher rpm or at exteme angles.


5. I am running Stainless Marine aluminum exhaust manifolds, with my own home made 4" silencers (not very complicated, they are made from PVC pipe & internal baffles) connected to 4" stainless tips at the rear. You can buy the 4" silencers or simply get the 4" stainless mufflers from CP Performance or Eddie Marine.


6. flywheel, distributor (Thundervolt IV I assume), wires, coil, can come from your existing engine


7. being swayed away from the aluminum cylinder heads due to non marine capable is due to corrosion. Remember when a manufacturer indicates marine use they have to include salt water also or the entire spectrum of marine use and in that case aluminum is not the best material. For your use on a Michigan fresh water lake, you will be okay. As I have indicated, I have used mine for several years and over 800 hours in similar water.


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Rebuilding an engine using either the current heads OR block with a late model VORTEC heads or block is not an option. The pre vortec intake manifold is a 12 bolt and a Vortec is 8 bolt. There is a Big HP difference between the original engine and a Vortec. I would buy a Vortec long block and intake and reuse the other bolt on parts. Essentially you'll have a carbed Monsoon.

What he said- vortec is only slightly more but 30hp jump with just the heads and roller cam

  • Like 1
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1)Summit crate engine assembly, ZZ4 355hp $4,410 http://www.summitrac...02609/overview/

2)New carb $400

3)Use my rebuilt starter

4)New mechanical fuel pump

5)Swap out my oil pan

6)Exhaust manifolds - you are running stainless, is that the header-type? For $2k?

7)How do you manage the exhaust from the silencer back? I would replace that hose with 4"? Do you eliminate the silencer?

8)What about balancing, what do I need for that?

To answer the questions

1. Summitt is usually pretty cheap, Scroggins Dickey tends to be the crate engine specialist, they are in Texas, check them out.

2. why would you not use your current one? The Weber version is a bit better than the Carter or Edelbrock one and is already Marine ready. simply rebuild it It is a spreadbore so remember that when getting an intake manifold

3. 10-4 on the starter, why not use your existing marine fuel pump also?

4. Yes on the oil pan, it will have a windage tray built in, main reason is the engine tilt angle, boats don't pull enough g load to slosh the oil around but the angle & accel bowrise can cause too much oil to go up the back of the engine. The windage tray is designed to keep the crank from frothing the oil at higher rpm or at exteme angles.

5. I am running Stainless Marine aluminum exhaust manifolds, with my own home made 4" silencers (not very complicated, they are made from PVC pipe & internal baffles) connected to 4" stainless tips at the rear. You can buy the 4" silencers or simply get the 4" stainless mufflers from CP Performance or Eddie Marine.

6. flywheel, distributor (Thundervolt IV I assume), wires, coil, can come from your existing engine

7. being swayed away from the aluminum cylinder heads due to non marine capable is due to corrosion. Remember when a manufacturer indicates marine use they have to include salt water also or the entire spectrum of marine use and in that case aluminum is not the best material. For your use on a Michigan fresh water lake, you will be okay. As I have indicated, I have used mine for several years and over 800 hours in similar water.

Thanks Woodski.

--Carb: I assumed my current Weber would not work, are you saying I could re-jet that? I simply haven't gotten that far on the research process yet, but if I could use it that would be great. My Weber carb has 1/2 hours on it at most. I swapped out my old one for it at Flying Fish carbs, I'm sure a quick call to them and they'd send me whatever I need. And thanks for the note on the manifold, it comes with that package so I'd make sure to specify that to them.

--fuel pump: I thought it should be replaced because basically every other component on the enigne will be new. Small $$, good peace of mind

--That exhaust is going to be really expensive, $1,900. How much will my factory manifolds & silencer up be holding me back as far as horses? This is what you are talking about, right: http://www.stainlessmarine.com/?wpsc-product=sb-manifolds-with-stainless-steel-risers. Plus all new hose and silencers is another $600ish, so I'm at $2,500 in just exhaust components.....ouch.

--You've convinvced me on the aluminum heads, your argument makes perfect sense. Plus I've seen go-fast boat forums where they run them all the time too. No longer concerned about that.

Edit: I just read in an earlier post that you are getting 750cfm out of that Weber, missed that earlier. Nice that I could use that carb again!

Edited by Michigan boarder
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I'm hesitant to go with anything that says "not for marine use" because I'll void the warranty. The last thing I need is to throw a rod next summer (due to an assembly error/defect) and have them say "Wait, you put that in a boat? Sorry, but it's not for marine use, we can't help you.".

So, if I go crate, I'm leaning back towards the 383, and using my stock exhaust. I get that it may be overkill, but I'd rather have too much power and go easier on the throttle.

Still waiting to speak with the local contact that I made Friday night. If he's at a good, reputable shop, backs the work, etc. that could change things and we may be back to building the ZZ3 or 4. But I'm still concerned with what exhaust changes I need to make.

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Carbs are "dumb", they only respond to the amount of air flowing through them and the throttle position relative to their calibration. The reality is you may not even need to rejet as it should be flowing a correct mixture now. You might have to do some calibration work on the needles and needle jets to get it to run smooth.

The exhaust will be kind of pricey, I felt it worthwhile for both the hp gains but also reducing the weight which is a factor for slalom. A key will be to port match the manifolds to the cylinder heads which may or may not require a change, I did port match the originals as noted and they do work okay.

One item you have not considered specifically with the 383 is the camshaft. GM uses a specific marine cam for the small block, the ZZ4 cam is a little more aggressive, I would have to look at the 383 cam specs to compare. You do not want to give up any low end torque and the cam is designed to work with a prop in water which is different from a torque converter and rubber to asphalt.

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Carbs are "dumb", they only respond to the amount of air flowing through them and the throttle position relative to their calibration. The reality is you may not even need to rejet as it should be flowing a correct mixture now. You might have to do some calibration work on the needles and needle jets to get it to run smooth.

The exhaust will be kind of pricey, I felt it worthwhile for both the hp gains but also reducing the weight which is a factor for slalom. A key will be to port match the manifolds to the cylinder heads which may or may not require a change, I did port match the originals as noted and they do work okay.

One item you have not considered specifically with the 383 is the camshaft. GM uses a specific marine cam for the small block, the ZZ4 cam is a little more aggressive, I would have to look at the 383 cam specs to compare. You do not want to give up any low end torque and the cam is designed to work with a prop in water which is different from a torque converter and rubber to asphalt.

Makes sense with the carb. I feel like I can tackle that in detail, no problem at all. It's easy to get to and there are a ton of places to get advice/vids, etc., and I've had good success tuning them on older cars in years past.

Yeah, the exhaust is tough for me to justify. Part of the attraction with any SBC was to re-use all of that. Bump up the combination of displacement/cam/intake and re-use all of the exhaust parts. Now that I know I can re-use the carb, then it's that much better. So, if weight is not as big of a concern to me, do you think my stock components will suffice as far as air flow? I realize I may need to fix the openings to reflect the vortec design.

I did think of the cam, actually I thought the Z4 or 3 were less agressive. Again with me new to this, I don't know what I'm comparing. Was hoping to talk to my local guy about it. Any info or opinions you could share would be appreciated.

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ZZ4 cam (Pace Performance site):

Camshaft: Steel Hydraulic Roller Tappet
Cam Lift: .474” Intake / .510” exhaust
Cam Duration @ .050”: 208 deg. Intake / 221 deg. Exhaust
Lobe Separation: 112 Degree

Here's a 383, 405hp I just found from Blueprint Engines for $3,295

//blueprintengines.com/index.php/products/bp-gm-crate-engines-landing/gm-383-main/item/gm-383-base-bp3830ct1

Cam Type: Flat Tappet

.487 Intake .503 Exhaust

234 Intake / 244 Exhaust duration

@ .050 - 112 degree lobe separation

Edited by Michigan boarder
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