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What engine would you put in your boat?


Michigan boarder

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What's the weight savings of cast to aluminum, 20# a side? I like the idea of aluminum heads for several reasons, but not sure the cost would dictate the benefit.

I ran into another issue when upgrading my cam in my last boat. Seems some vortec heads are not fly cut that deep in the valve spring pockets and the springs can not physically compress for higher lift cams (can't remember the actual number, but it wasn't huge, .470??). You can upgrade to a "beehive" spring from Crane that overlaps itself. I found this odd, but read it in multiple places.

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I'll bet it's at least 25 lbs per side, maybe more depending on the old heads vs new ones. I know a lot of skiers that fret over less weight than that, particularly in the non diamond boats like that one. But yeah, performance may not be worth it, hard to say. A good strong 350 built to 350+ HP is going to be such a huge upgrade over the old motor that I really think details like this are semantics. I'd go for the alu heads if it were me, but then I've had setups like that in my past boats & never had an issue. So my experience with it is good.

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Always fun spending someone else's $.

And we're oh-so-good at it too.

The point about weight is important IMO. In a boat with a small footprint like this, every pound makes a much bigger difference than it does as you go up in hull size. That fact should be intuitive. MB says at the beginning of the thread that the boat is used for a variety of purposes, & he specifically listed slalom skiing as one of them. If you want to find weight-weenies in this industry, that's where you'll find them - slalom skiers. You can always add weight if you want it, but you can't take it out to make the boat lighter once it's there in the form of engine parts.

Of course the flip side to this is that I would try to balance all of that against asking myself "how much money do I really want to put into this project?" Because you could easily throw $5-6k at this project, & in the end you'll still own a 1994 Malibu Echelon. There is a hard ceiling on what that boat is worth if you try to sell it.

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And we're oh-so-good at it too.

The point about weight is important IMO. In a boat with a small footprint like this, every pound makes a much bigger difference than it does as you go up in hull size. That fact should be intuitive. MB says at the beginning of the thread that the boat is used for a variety of purposes, & he specifically listed slalom skiing as one of them. If you want to find weight-weenies in this industry, that's where you'll find them - slalom skiers. You can always add weight if you want it, but you can't take it out to make the boat lighter once it's there in the form of engine parts.

Of course the flip side to this is that I would try to balance all of that against asking myself "how much money do I really want to put into this project?" Because you could easily throw $5-6k at this project, & in the end you'll still own a 1994 Malibu Echelon. There is a hard ceiling on what that boat is worth if you try to sell it.

Wake Girl

with the type of money we are talking about...if he keeps the boat another 5 years and gives the boat away...who cares?

Compared to the newer boat prices, this is really pocket change...

and besides, I LOVE MY "you'll still own a 1994 Malibu Echelon" boat"...and in fact I am not sure what I would replace it with...I went out to search one down when I bought mine....it is a GREAT recreational barefoot boat and a decent recreational slalom tractor, and I have the "HEAVY BIG BLOCK 454" in mine....LOL

When I buy and older boat for a specific purpose (and Michigan Boarder did too) the money we spend is NOTHING at all, so resale does not really come into play here...

I do realizes that some folks only have so much money to spend and that they need to consider resale value because they may need to "Trade it In" some day....and not pay cash for it or their new boat replacement.... so your point is still valid for that buyer...just not Michigan Boarder or others like myself that want these OLDER boats because they are great for what they are used for and they are almost FREE....compared to newer prices...

Just sayin...

Look at MartinAcrhers old sled....it is another great example of a great boat for the cost of "next to nothing" compared to a newer comparable machine...

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Except that he's already mentioned getting an itch for something newer. It doesn't matter what you think about owning an older boat, it matters what MB thinks & the fact that he's already mentioned getting something newer tells me that the cost of all of this needs to be factored in or at least considered relative to what it will sell for in a few years.

EDIT: One more comment. My experience around here has shown me that once a person starts talking about moving into a newer boat, they usually do. That's the assumption that I'm working from, not that he'll keep it for a significant amount of time.

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I am no skier but it seems the weight savings with aluminum heads would be the benefit.

Cast iron heads for the SBC engine weigh 45 lbs each. The two heads together weigh less than 1 small adult female. I wouldn't say this alone is considerable weight savings. Someone above said it best when talking about galvanic corrosion. This is a much larger issue. Cast iron heads will last so much longer in a raw water cooled setup.

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Except that he's already mentioned getting an itch for something newer. It doesn't matter what you think about owning an older boat, it matters what MB thinks & the fact that he's already mentioned getting something newer tells me that the cost of all of this needs to be factored in or at least considered relative to what it will sell for in a few years.

EDIT: One more comment. My experience around here has shown me that once a person starts talking about moving into a newer boat, they usually do. That's the assumption that I'm working from, not that he'll keep it for a significant amount of time.

Wake Girl.

If that is the case, then I stand Corrected....But he and I have spoken and I "Thought I knew what was up" but again...they are all opinions....and I love it....

makes for good reading...LOL

It is ALL GOOD...

JB

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Wake Girl.

If that is the case, then I stand Corrected....But he and I have spoken and I "Thought I knew what was up" but again...they are all opinions....and I love it....

makes for good reading...LOL

It is ALL GOOD...

JB

Yup. I'm just going off of comments that he's made here. And honestly, I've been in his situation a few times. A person has a tendency at that point to waffle all over the place & not really know what they want to do. And, that can vary almost moment by moment. So I'd betcha that what you picked up on was very real, but then changed soon thereafter & then soon thereafter again.....it's a frustrating place to be & sometimes you just want to make a decision for the sake of making a decision & enabling the process to move along.

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I will have to agree with the above. I sold my 95 Echelon almost 2 years ago. I loved that boat. When I bought it I was sure it was going to be my last boat.......it was more boat than I had ever previously owned. But then I hung up my slalom ski and started wake boarding. And the group of people that go with me got larger. I ran out of room in the Echelon and had to get something bigger.......not to mention wanting a larger wake. Thus I bought the Vride and had to let the Echelon go. If I could keep both............you better bet I would!

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Of course the flip side to this is that I would try to balance all of that against asking myself "how much money do I really want to put into this project?" Because you could easily throw $5-6k at this project, & in the end you'll still own a 1994 Malibu Echelon. There is a hard ceiling on what that boat is worth if you try to sell it.

I tell people when they want to put money in their 5 year old PC ... I have to tell them it's like putting money into a 64 Valant. Is it worth it?

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I don't mean to re-kindle any argument for or against the weight aspect of using aluminum heads........but something Wakegirl says does make me wonder about this. If the rather small footprint of the Echelon makes that big of a difference in weight..........why did Malibu offer a big block in this boat? I do know that weight distribution IS DEFINITELY a big deal with this narrow hull. But I'm not convinced that 40 or 50 pounds is going to make that much difference. But then again......I never skied at a competition level......so maybe there's something I don't know.

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Well, it's all a matter of perspective. The big block is attractive to footers because it can push the boat to a faster top end (in theory) & it can get there quicker. Fundamentally, footers aren't as concerned with weight, their criteria for a good footing wake is different than that of a slalom skier. So the weight issue is more negligible to that crowd. People using those boats as slalom machines usually pay attention to every single pound that goes into the boat. I know many slalom guys that keep their boats on private lakes that specifically keep the gas level very low because of weight. And they do things like take out the back seat, keep very minimal gear onboard with most of it on the dock or in the truck, etc etc. Every pound matters to them, & yes they can see the difference in the quality of the wake. And I would say that only 1 of them would be considered a competition level skier.

Remember also, that when these boats were produced, a good slalom machine was a different animal than what we're used to now. Wakesports at that time hadn't moved much beyond the traditional 3 events, footing & kneeboarding (skurfers & wakeboards had just made it on to the scene). Think of the lineup that Malibu offered in '94. No vdrives, at all. The biggest boat in their lineup was the Sunsetter, & that wasn't even on the SV23 hull at that point. And as far as pure slalom, we're not talking about slalom machines that had fully evolved, really they had just begun their evolution. The 454 was something of an oddity, & as I mentioned I don't think that it was targeted at the slalom crowd at all. Looking back at the "ski boats" that all 3 manufacturers offered through the '90's, I don't think that weight was really a consideration for any of them (maybe an argument could be made with MC, their '94 PS 190 was the best of the bunch until the CC TSC hull later in the decade). But we know so much more about that now.

EDIT: I just re-read that & it comes off as really rambling. Quick synopsis: slalom wake evolution had really just begun when the Echy was built, combined with the fact that the Echy was likely marketed as more than just a slalom tractor (more of a do-it-all boat for the time, keeping in mind what "do-it-all" meant in that era) & thus weight was less of a consideration than it would be in a pure slalom tractor. At that point, their slalom tractor was still the Skier.

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@Michigan Boarder: my comments here are based on my passion to tinker, build and modify stuff to make it better along with a desire to be economically prudent at the same time. I have as you can notice a 94 Echy that is heavily modified. As it stands right now, it is an awesome slalom machine, as good or better than anything out there, and is a great barefoot machine. I don't surf or board so I can't help you there. It did not take too much $$ to make it that way, but I do all the work myself.

Your issue, the lump in the middle. The overhead event certainly torched the head gaskets specifically at the siamesed exhaust ports (center cylinders). Since you are considering upping the power level, here are my upgrades: Fast burn 385 cylinder heads, ZZ4 cam, Performer RPM intake, Stainless Marine exhaust manifolds, 4" exhaust w/ H pipe, modified Weber carb (it is 750 cfm so it will deliver plenty of fuel as a 350 only needs 600 cfm @ 5,000 rpm, the stock spark arrestor is actually the limiting factor on airflow once you dump the old non Vortec heads). It pulls multiple footers longline, a solo footer has to stand quick as it really pulls from 2-5K rpm. There have been some comments on weight, and yes for this hull specifically for slalom it makes a big difference on the wake, not so much on the barefoot wake (hence J-B's affection for the big block). If you want to improve the slalom wake, pulling weight out of the engine and even more so off the transom really helps. I have pulled 300 # out of mine over the years, the engine mods account for 80% of it. A couple of your comments hint at budget concerns and with this in mind, I would certainly look at the following: 1. rebuilt the short block with the minimum of parts needed (piston for the bad one (looks like it might need .030" from the picture), new rings (overheat probably hurt them), hone the cylinder walls, check the bearings and replace if needed (go with 8 pistons if you feel the need but you won't notice as long as you balance the new one to the old ones but certainly crack check them all), 2. purchase a reman short block and transfer over all the marine specific stuff** 3. you could consider an upgrade to a 383 but you will be adding several expensive parts to make it work (crank / rods / pistons). The top end stuff is mainly where the extra power is going to come from 265 to if you were to copy my setup 400+hp it is all done via airflow upgrades, but a 383 will provide some serious low end grunt if you need extra pull at low rpm levels (a longer stroke won't spool up as fast as a short stroke engine so think about that).

Some comments in the thread I will toss my experience and opinion on, which may be different from some above: Fuel injection- won't give any additional power, actually probably a little less based on the dyno pulls I have seen, it will offer smoother and cleaner start ups and warm ups but no additional benefits outside that other than perhaps less maintenance if you don't stabil your carb during storage. My carbed boat is as smooth as any EFI unit. A big investment for the return as a boat tends to run at steady speeds rather than a lot of transients where the FI will really show improvements. I have not noticed it, but FI should be more economical but all the boats on our lake are pretty equal in fuel consumption. Aluminum components, as noted, I have accumulated over 800 trouble free hours on aluminum heads, exhaust manifolds & intake manifold. The biggest effect is the exhaust manifold gasket, they tend to fail after 3-4 years or so and there will be more sensitivity to damage if you do overheat it dramatically. The exhaust manifolds in particular and engine in general tends to be much cooler and you can rest your hand on the risers at any time w/o getting burned. I have an open cooling system and have no issues, I do have zinc anodes in the exhaust manifolds, don't run a strainer and use the boat in a small, shallow, weedy lake where the slalom course is in 6' of water.

** BTW Michigan Motorz is a gearhead shop, very marine knowledgeable -and- one of the parts girls owns ... a 95 Echy! She is very knowledgeable and you will probably end up buying a very cool Hardin stainless impeller housing that they happen to have laying around if you buy from her. They have very friendly prices.

I hope this was helpful.

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Wow, lots more to consider! I was out of the office all day traveling & meetings. I appreciate all of the comments and I am listing them together to help weigh my options & decisions...the Crew rocks.

JB, I'm calling Tyler some time today after getting things caught up here. Spotty cell coverage out on the road yesterday.

To answer some questions about my intentions/priorities/inclinations;

--I cannot rebuild an engine (expertise & time) but I can install one. That makes me lean towards a crate long block.

--I have no intentions of selling and upgrading the boat. Our lake is a long 81 acre lake, great for stuff behind the boat. And the Echelon is the perfect size. We have a pier & lawn where we can leave our gear to swap out equipment & riders, so I don't need V-drive space. The house is for sale, and I think we will buy another lake house on another inland lake, but you never know how that will go. So my point is I have no intentions of selling the boat, but I also had no intentions of moving but the job forced us to a few years ago. If we did sell, and not buy lake property, the opportunity exists to get a slip that is less than a mile from our new house (a nice bike ride) on a channel that would connect to a 4,500 acre lake, a 450 acre lake, and Lake Michigan. The Echelon feels TINY on those bigger lakes. Again...who knows. So with those variables very near and real, I need to keep them in mind. On the other hand...my boat is in great shape and is sexy...and is PAID FOR!! That's hard to beat.

--I am concerned about not having "a guy" locally that I know & trust to do a rebuild, and guaranteeing the engine. I don't want to lose another summer...again steering me towards a crate engine, one with some kind of warranty, so it would be listed as "marine use" too. So I want to buy something that needs as little piecing together as possible, and has the heads, rotating assembly, etc. designed to work together. And if it fails I have recourse.

--Weight is imporant to me, but not 90lbs important. I'm not that good at slalom, nor do I ever really expect to be. I have fun with just about everything, but I don't really excel at anything.

--I want to use this as an opportunity to differentiate my Echelon from others. If I replace the engine stock, it's just another 20 year old direct drive boat (to most) with a weak carbed power plant. If I go big, it's a 20 year old direct drive boat with a powerhouse. Won't fetch a whole lot much more money, but I think it will sell quicker if that happens. I gotta be realistic...at some point everybody sells their boat.

--Lastly, I'll come out and admit it...I want some bragging rights. I want to do the engine swap myself and be like "Yeah, I put a new engine in, it's pushing 400hp instead of that old factory thing".

Having trouble finding the ZZ3 online, anybody got a link?

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I forgot to add something. I really don't mind the carbed engine at all. It always ran great. 99.9999% of the time I'm the one doing the cold start. And even then the cold start is really not that hard, and after it's warmed up, anybody can start it. I think my wife started it cold once, when I was away and she had a girls weekend at the lake, after it sat on the lift for a week, and she did fine. I also think that anyone buying a 20 year old direct drive boat is not too concerned about it. Weighing a carbed versus EFI boat next to each other, with all else identical, the EFI would win. But my boat has so many other good things going for it. And again, for personal preferences, I'd rather trade the HP or convenience of an assembled engine for the EFI.

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I guess I have to look at my perspective on EFI. Most of my boating over the past 20 years has been done at lakes that range in altitude of 2000' up to 6000'. EFI makes a big, big difference at elevation & especially when you're changing elevations of that magnitude. EFI just manages it so much better & because of that, in my world EFI is highly sought after on the used market (there is a tangible difference in value & sell-ability, even in a 20 year old boat). I always fail to remember that when I make that comment or recommendation. If you're not at altitude then a carb would likely be just fine, & as woodski notes will actually deliver more power with all else being equal.

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I guess I have to look at my perspective on EFI. Most of my boating over the past 20 years has been done at lakes that range in altitude of 2000' up to 6000'. EFI makes a big, big difference at elevation & especially when you're changing elevations of that magnitude. EFI just manages it so much better & because of that, in my world EFI is highly sought after on the used market (there is a tangible difference in value & sell-ability, even in a 20 year old boat). I always fail to remember that when I make that comment or recommendation. If you're not at altitude then a carb would likely be just fine, & as woodski notes will actually deliver more power with all else being equal.

I can totally see that. Here in Michigan there are soooo many inland lakes, all within 100' of elevation of one another. People on those lake are my target market if I choose to sell.

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thinking outside the box a little... have you considered trolling craigslist for a used vortec 350? Is the marine block actually different than the roadgoing version (i.e. drain plugs)?

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Woodski - when you put it in your perspective that all of your hp gains come from air flow, that is amazing. I am not worried about the aluminum heads holding up, I've been reading all over the place about go-fast boats running fast burn aluminum heads, so I think they would be fine on my boat too. Or would they be a problem with my iron exhaust manifolds? That is, iron block - alum head - iron manifold. BTW, I respect your ability to make those mods and tune your boat to run well, I just don't feel good about my abilities to do the same.

I still can't find a ZZ3 on line, if someone could point me towards one (crate).

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thinking outside the box a little... have you considered trolling craigslist for a used vortec 350? Is the marine block actually different than the roadgoing version (i.e. drain plugs)?

Good thought, I just looked and didn't see anything good. Some older ones, 1996 - 2000 range. I would be hesitant anyway to go thru all this with an engine that "ran well when we took it out". Unless I knew the guy.

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