What engine would you put in your boat?

[MalibuTime]

Haven't seen anyone mention this. Will a big block fit under your current motor box? They really are big, I had to have the 454 in an old 3500 pulled to be able to extract the manifold bolts and the thing was huge.

[MalibuNation]

For the $ I'd go with an EFI small block over a 454 as you'll have plenty of power with your boat.

I'm assuming your boat is up north ... if it's at the lake house I'm driving by it twcie today and could swing by.

Edited October 9, 2013 by MalibuNation

[Falko]

If you are going big block, just keep an eye out for a used Merc 8.1. The torque will probably flip your boat, with the right prop of course.

[Michigan boarder]

here's an efi big block with a boat wrapped around it....

http://janesville.craigslist.org/boa/4071509257.html

See, that's part of the problem. Brand new interior, big block with 30 hours on it....$12.5k. That guy is going to lose a lot of money selling that boat, which he probably intended to keep indefinitely, just like I started out saying at the start of this thread. Which is why I am hesitant to spend money on a fully dressed engine, rather than bolt on my stuff to a crate engine or have my block rebuiilt.

Haven't seen anyone mention this. Will a big block fit under your current motor box? They really are big, I had to have the 454 in an old 3500 pulled to be able to extract the manifold bolts and the thing was huge.

It should, they had it as a factory option. I'll get the dimensions of the engine lid, if JB can verify they are the same then we'll know for sure.

For the $ I'd go with an EFI small block over a 454 as you'll have plenty of power with your boat.

I'm assuming your boat is up north ... if it's at the lake house I'm driving by it twcie today and could swing by.

Thank you, yes it's up here. But feel free to mow the lawn!

If you are going big block, just keep an eye out for a used Merc 8.1. The torque will probably flip your boat, with the right prop of course.

I thought of that too this morning, any used big block 7.4 or 8.1. But I hate doing that, just waiting and researching daily...time starts to pass...soon it's Feb, and I don't have an engine...then one pops up in Arkansas....weekend road trip....pressed for time to get it in before the season....etc. I'd rather set my sights on what I need now before the holidays, pull the trigger, set my schedule, etc.

[shawndoggy]

See, that's part of the problem. Brand new interior, big block with 30 hours on it....$12.5k. That guy is going to lose a lot of money selling that boat, which he probably intended to keep indefinitely, just like I started out saying at the start of this thread. Which is why I am hesitant to spend money on a fully dressed engine, rather than bolt on my stuff to a crate engine or have my block rebuiilt.

Agree 100%. Basically that guy is selling you a whole boat for the price of the dressed efi big block. Sell yours as-is for 5k, but his for $12k, you get a new boat for the price of a new motor.

[JB-FOOT]

Michigan Boarder

Call me!

[Michigan boarder]

Agree 100%. Basically that guy is selling you a whole boat for the price of the dressed efi big block. Sell yours as-is for 5k, but his for $12k, you get a new boat for the price of a new motor.

You know, if I thought I could get $5k out of it, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'm afraid I'll be hard pressed to get $3.5k. Which then points me back to at least just doing the simple rebuild to get a good resale. Which then points me to well, after that, then why sell it? Might as well keep it now. Well, if I'm going to keep it, I should have done the engine right. It's a circular formula that I've played out in my driveway on my 4th beer over and over again. The bottom line is I really like the boat, it suits our family well, and I put like 25 - 30 hours a year on it. AAARGH!

Michigan Boarder

Call me!

I'll call you when I head out at noon if that's OK, got your cell on a sticky note.

[JB-FOOT]

JB-FOOT, on 09 Oct 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

Michigan Boarder

Call me!

I'll call you when I head out at noon if that's OK, got your cell on a sticky note.

I just sent you a PM with some local information for you...

[nuttyskier2002]

GM perfomance zz4 350 or 383. Get the short block, around 2200 and 3400 respectively. HAve your heads rebuilt, and put them on the engine if applicable. Those engines are strong in power and build. I put a 350 in my old I/O with an edelbrock carb and Mallory ignition system, it would cavitate the prop at 30 mph when you dropped the throttle. Just my opinion, but they are a good engine.

If his boat was a '97 or above I would agree with this. But he has a 94 which did not come with Vortec heads. GM didn't even have these heads available for trucks until 1996. So either get a set of Vortec heads or go with the 383 long block crate engine. You can use a carb with this setup.

[nuttyskier2002]

Rebuilding an engine using either the current heads OR block with a late model VORTEC heads or block is not an option. The pre vortec intake manifold is a 12 bolt and a Vortec is 8 bolt. There is a Big HP difference between the original engine and a Vortec. I would buy a Vortec long block and intake and reuse the other bolt on parts. Essentially you'll have a carbed Monsoon.

The Vortec heads will bolt to the older block. You will need to upgrade to the Vortec type intake manifold which is available in the aftermarket. I did this upgrade to a 95 Echelon.

[nuttyskier2002]

OK, I've traveled from one end of the new & reman engine internet universe to the other. I am still in the "kicking around ideas" mode. Here are some thoughts, pretty much running the full spectrum:

1. 454 EFI

--Needs to be fully dressed w/ fuel system, I have no parts to transfer to it

--Where is a good source to price one?

2. 383 carbed

--Purchase with new heads installed

--Will all of the components from my current engine work on this? Manifolds, pulleys, mech. fuel pump, oil sender, cooling system, etc.

--I expect to have to retune the carb. Anything else?

--I can always add fuel injection later, right?

3. 350 crate engine

--cheap and simple replacement

--new heads?

--retune carb?

--cam?

One question is exhaust with all of these, do I need to swap it all out to 4"? Currently running the factory 3".

These are a lot of the same questions I'm going to ask some local guys, throwing in the option of repairing the current block. My gut reaction is screw the 350, and use this opportunity. I'd like the 454 (I'd put a freaking sticker on the windshield), that would be just wicked.

Michigan, If you go the 383 route......which is what I would do if I were in your shoes.......you will need a bigger carb. Fuel injection would be a nice upgrade but also an expensive one. GM recommends a 750 CFM carb for that engine for it to deliver it's full potential. The ZZ383 crate engine comes with aluminum fast burn heads, a 4 bolt main block, a steel crankshaft and a nice high lift camshaft and PM rods. You can easily get 400 HP from this combination. You can call me at 480-316-7429 and I will share some information with you.

Edited October 9, 2013 by nuttyskier2002

[jk13]

The Vortec heads will bolt to the older block. You will need to upgrade to the Vortec type intake manifold which is available in the aftermarket. I did this upgrade to a 95 Echelon.

Were you able to use the stock exhaust manifolds?

[nuttyskier2002]

Were you able to use the stock exhaust manifolds?

Yes! The stock exhaust manifolds will bolt to the Vortec heads. No issues there. From a performance standpoint though.........in the future.......an upgrade to the "header type" marine manifold that comes on the hammerhead would definitely be worthwhile. But it's not an immediate requirement to get the engine built and running.

[Michigan boarder]

OK, first thanks nuttyskier and JBFoot for the phone calls and input. I sincerely appreciate it. My couple of guys to talk to were strictly hot rod, no marine experience. So I'm a bit hesitant with them. Plus you guys own/owned Echelons, so that make it kind of cool.

Based on all the kicking around, it looks like I am going for the 383. That will give me a fantastic upgrade and still allow me to put a lot of my components back on. But, (and this is mostly just looking online) the 383 stroker built for a car is around 425hp, and the 383 "marine" engine (including the Scorpion) is 330, 340, 350 etc. depending on what site I am looking at or what forum I am reading. I've read that there is no difference, but I've also just read that there is a difference, with the automotive engines built for temperatures over 200 degrees versus marine at around 160 degrees.

For example, Summit has the ZZ383 for $6,229.97, 425hp, but that indicates a non marine use. Then they have the MBP383CT for $4,395 as a marine application, 405hp. The difference appears to be cast iron heads on the marine engine versus aluminum on the street engine. Is that due to a corrosion concern? Does it matter that I will use it in fresh water only? I gotta say, I like that $4,395 price tag, I could have it complete for under $5,500.

[Slayer]

It's kind of hard to look away from $5,500 for that kind of an upgrade. 405 ponies in your rig would be much like having a president's edition echelon with the 454 at 395 HP. That's tough to beat. Giving your boat a heart transplant like that will give you many more years of enjoyment.

[FastFreddy]

Like you said the price seems right and 400+hp is a nice upgrade. It is marine rated. I wouldn't spend the extra $1800 for an extra 20hp.

[JB-FOOT]

Michigan

Aluminum heads and cast iron block are a problem unless you have a semi-closed cooling system...But that is just my opinion and perhaps others will want to totally disagree with me....

I/O's have plenty of galvanic corrosion in FRESH water. they don't need salt water to corrode...

Go marine or stay home!

Did you talk to the Tyler yet?

JB

[Michigan boarder]

It's kind of hard to look away from $5,500 for that kind of an upgrade. 405 ponies in your rig would be much like having a president's edition echelon with the 454 at 395 HP. That's tough to beat. Giving your boat a heart transplant like that will give you many more years of enjoyment.

It would be incredible! Makes the engine failure & repair process taste a lot less salty, nice silver lining.

Like you said the price seems right and 400+hp is a nice upgrade. It is marine rated. I wouldn't spend the extra $1800 for an extra 20hp.

No, I wouldn't even consider it, no good logic to that. I was just curious as to why, and thought I'd point out the difference in price.

Michigan

Aluminum heads and cast iron block are a problem unless you have a semi-closed cooling system...But that is just my opinion and perhaps others will want to totally disagree with me....

I/O's have plenty of galvanic corrosion in FRESH water. they don't need salt water to corrode...

Go marine or stay home!

Did you talk to the Tyler yet?

JB

...and that is why, the corrosion. Makes plenty of sense and I'll put that to rest. I'm learning a lot about engines in the past couple of days. No, I haven't talked to Tyler yet, but will call him in the morning.

And now I'm re-thinking the 383. Will that thing idle well? Am I going too big? As you all know, there's plenty of idling to happen with the towboat (mostly picking up fallen riders, but also waiting at the dock, just cruising, running the engine to supply extra volts to run ballast pumps, etc.). Probably a good question for Tyler.

[JB-FOOT]

It would be incredible! Makes the engine failure & repair process taste a lot less salty, nice silver lining.

No, I wouldn't even consider it, no good logic to that. I was just curious as to why, and thought I'd point out the difference in price.

...and that is why, the corrosion. Makes plenty of sense and I'll put that to rest. I'm learning a lot about engines in the past couple of days. No, I haven't talked to Tyler yet, but will call him in the morning.

And now I'm re-thinking the 383. Will that thing idle well? Am I going too big? As you all know, there's plenty of idling to happen with the towboat (mostly picking up fallen riders, but also waiting at the dock, just cruising, running the engine to supply extra volts to run ballast pumps, etc.). Probably a good question for Tyler.

Michigan

RE:Idling,

The 4 boats we use for barefoot only are used as such...

Barefoot at 38-43mph... (Depending on the footer in our crew) for a max run of 3 minutes (most are more like 1:45-2:15) then the boat is IMMEDIATELY pulled back to Idle in gear until we either get another footer in the water or the original footer takes a second run....then it is right back to 38-42....so I would bet that we idle more than we run hard.

Then we may run at 30mph back to the dock when we are done, which might be a max of 10 minutes...

So that is how our Footing Boats are used EVERY year...and they are all still very healthy..

We have two small block 350's and two big block 454's

We do not have a 383/6.2L in our fleet of footing boats...but almost all of the group of footers (7 of us) have two boats and all of the other boats we own are either small block 350's or small block 351's

Good luck in your decision and keep us in the loop with what the MARINE MOTOR builders tell you...

JB

[WakeGirl]

Haven't seen anyone mention this. Will a big block fit under your current motor box? They really are big, I had to have the 454 in an old 3500 pulled to be able to extract the manifold bolts and the thing was huge.

I realize that he's probably decided against the 454, but the answer is no. The factory optioned 454 boats had a motor box that was bigger than the standard 350. So you'd have to figure that into the equation.

Personally MB, if it were me, I think that I'd shoot for a rebuild & do something along the lines of a 380-400 hp ZZ3. I'd say no to the 383 option (even though I have a lot of really good experience with that motor, both in Malibu boats as well as in hot rods off the water), & I wouldn't even consider a big block in that boat. You don't need it in that boat for what you're doing, & I'd take the difference in cost & invest it in EFI. I'm speculating, but I'd be willing to bet that you'll get more of a return on that scenario than any of the others. EFI is a very desirable thing to have when selling a boat, far more-so than the 383 or 454 will be. JM2C

[Lance B. Johnson]

I realize that he's probably decided against the 454, but the answer is no. The factory optioned 454 boats had a motor box that was bigger than the standard 350. So you'd have to figure that into the equation.

Personally MB, if it were me, I think that I'd shoot for a rebuild & do something along the lines of a 380-400 hp ZZ3. I'd say no to the 383 option (even though I have a lot of really good experience with that motor, both in Malibu boats as well as in hot rods off the water), & I wouldn't even consider a big block in that boat. You don't need it in that boat for what you're doing, & I'd take the difference in cost & invest it in EFI. I'm speculating, but I'd be willing to bet that you'll get more of a return on that scenario than any of the others. EFI is a very desirable thing to have when selling a boat, far more-so than the 383 or 454 will be. JM2C

Dang it! You beat me to the zz3.

That's what I'd do. These days I'm kinda lazy and would probably buy a new one or at least consider that option. I don't know much about the new aftermarket FI systems. The older ones required tuning and were not exactly for the faint of heart. The new systems are probably easier? Maybe someone else can chime in here. I know very well I could make a Holley work very well with that combo....

[WakeGirl]

I love the ZZ3. The way it's cammed up & a little grumpy, but still a really reliable motor.....so much fun. Lots & lots of mid range / top end with that setup. That boat is so light that I just don't see needing a big block or even a stump puller like the 383.

That said, I do like the lope of the 383. It idles totally different from a ZZ3, so grumpy but in a completely different way. Lots & lots of lope. But the thing is, the 383 is such a stump puller. It makes its power in such a different way, & in a way that just isn't needed in a light boat like that. My opinion of course.

[Falko]

Aluminum heads are good for auto applications where the engines are running a hair hotter and you need to get rid of that heat in the combustion chamber to control detonation. I don't think it would be as necessary in a boat engine. That is probably where the extra power and cost are coming from in that differential. Another area you have to be vigilant of is the cam overlap. You can suck water out of the exhaust header back in through the exhaust valve if the cam is too wild. This happens when people hot rod standard I/O boats and don't change the exhaust headers. I would expect any marine engine has taken this into consideration.

WakeGirl brings up a good point about the EFI. If you went the the standard 5.7, the cost differential could probably get you a good TBI system or maybe even an MPI. If you ski across a wide range of weather conditions, that might be a nice upgrade.

[Lance B. Johnson]

Aluminum heads are good for auto applications where the engines are running a hair hotter and you need to get rid of that heat in the combustion chamber to control detonation. I don't think it would be as necessary in a boat engine. That is probably where the extra power and cost are coming from in that differential. Another area you have to be vigilant of is the cam overlap. You can suck water out of the exhaust header back in through the exhaust valve if the cam is too wild. This happens when people hot rod standard I/O boats and don't change the exhaust headers. I would expect any marine engine has taken this into consideration.

WakeGirl brings up a good point about the EFI. If you went the the standard 5.7, the cost differential could probably get you a good TBI system or maybe even an MPI. If you ski across a wide range of weather conditions, that might be a nice upgrade.

I am no skier but it seems the weight savings with aluminum heads would be the benefit.

[Woodski]

I installed a set of fast burn aluminum heads over 800 hours ago and they work great. No issues with running lake water through them, I have an open cooling system. Salt water would certainly be a different story. I also have aluminum exhaust manifolds on my setup and a ZZ4 cam among other things.