Ballast bag install - is venting required?

[FastFreddy]

I have installed my ballast bags like this.

Question is do I need to vent the bag for filling?

I'm guessing it could cause small leaks around the fittings and stuff if I forget to stop the pump.

It's also harder to tell when the bags are full.

The other option is this but I would need way more check valves from WM.com.

Edited June 7, 2013 by FastFreddy

[racer808]

Wakemakers has a diagram for using the drain as a vent. My ski locker is set up that way, It's just a Y fitting between fill / vent with a check valve on the drain line.

[Nitrousbird]

You should always vent to prevent damage and ensure you get all the air out of the bag for a complete fill. But as said above, you can Y-off the drain line for your vent.

[FastFreddy]

With just a Y wouldn't the water being drained from the bag possibly re-enter the bag through the vent tube?

[Nitrousbird]

With just a Y wouldn't the water being drained from the bag possibly re-enter the bag through the vent tube?

You use another check valve.

[FastFreddy]

Thanks for the help. Found this on WM.com

A: We strongly recommend having a dedicated vent/overflow connection for each bag in the system, especially when bags are to be hidden in storage lockers as many installs will be. That said, if you fully understand the reasons for that dedicated vent line (pressure relief and air purging), ultimately it’s up to you to weigh the pros and cons and come to a decision that works best for you.

One of the big advantages of a fully automated system though is that it allows you to fill while driving the boat across the lake, and that makes it incredibly easy to start filling the system, and leave it running for long enough that the bags are full and the pressure in the bag gets to a point that is dangerous.

If you know for sure that you will be able to monitor the bags during filling 100% of the time and you would rather not install the thru-hull fittings for venting the bags then an unvented system can be used. But we’ve had numerous customers that have installed systems using reversible pumps (that generate higher pressure than aerator pumps) without vent lines that have done significant damage to the trim panels in the locker and fiberglass/gelcoat of the deck of the boat. We understand the reluctance to drill additional holes in the boat, but our belief is that there is a right way to do everything, and the correct way to install an automated ballast system is with a dedicated vent connection for each bag

[Brad B]

I originally installed without but found it difficult to burp the excess air so added vent lines.

Now its as ez as when water comes out of the vent the sacs are full.

Just make sure its at the highest point

[FastFreddy]

I ended up installing the bags vented and I'm very happy I did. I don't have to worry and I know when they are full since the water pours out the side of the boat. Another nice thing is it doesn't pop the seats off.

I used three check valves per sac and I would recommend everyone do it this way. Emptying is a breeze and it sux the fatsacs dry too.

[Fman]

You don't need a check valve between the pump and ball valve, that is a waist of money. The Johnson pump will prevent water from exiting the bag, the impeller acts like a check valve. You only need one check valve coming off the top of the bag connected into the drain thru hull on the side of the boat (with a Y fitting to tap into it). The Johnson pumps are super strong, I would definitely recommend installing one...

[FastFreddy]

You don't need a check valve between the pump and ball valve, that is a waist of money. The Johnson pump will prevent water from exiting the bag, the impeller acts like a check valve. You only need one check valve coming off the top of the bag connected into the drain thru hull on the side of the boat (with a Y fitting to tap into it). The Johnson pumps are super strong, I would definitely recommend installing one...

You need three check valves to get it to work properly. Otherwise when you dump the water the drain line can suck water in from the vent Y. Also if you want water to exit above the water line instead of below the water line you need a check valve on the intake (or you close the ball valve but it's a PITA).

Edited June 24, 2013 by FastFreddy

[Fman]

I am not following what you are saying...The diagram you have posted does not make sense to me, maybe I just cant understand it... but I don't see why you have a line "T"ing off inbetween the pump and ball valve??? I just installed two Johnson pumps, one pump for each bag, and each pump has its own separate thru hull. This system works perfect, it will fill and drain with no problems and water does not enter or drain out of the bags when you are not filling or draining.

Thru hull --> ball valve --> barbed fitting --> 1" line --> Johnson Pump --> 1" line to ballast bag --> 1" quick disconnect fitting to bag

Ballast bag requires a one way check valve for the overflow/drain line, the check valve on drain line is used for when you drain the bag it cuts off the air supply to allow the pump to completely suck all the water out of the bags, and it will allow water to exit thru hull when bag is completely full.

This vent line below has a one way check valve on it, you cant see it because its tucked under the gunwall.

There is NO check valve on this pump, it gets water from the thru hull/ball valve, into the pump and then directly into the bag. The check valve here is the rubber impeller, it will not allow any water to exit or enter the bag unless it is turned on to fill or drain.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Fman

[Fman]

Here is the diagram how I installed my system....I think you might be over thinking it, remember the Johnson pumps are reversible and drain and fill from the same intake thru hull.

[dgd]

I can speak from personal experience that a vent may not be the complete answer to a distraction (depending on the installation). I have a single 1100# bag in the right rear locker, hooked up to a reversible pump and a vent. In addition, I did reinforce the engine divider. The other day when filling the bag I got distracted and next thing I heard a "crack" from the engine compartment. At the same time one of my crew members commented on the flow of water from a thru-hull fitting and I realized immediately what had happened. I probably got close to the full 1100# capacity before the bag popped the engine divider rail from the floor and everything moved into the engine compartment. Fortunately no permanent damage and I have now added an L shaped bracket to reinforce the engine divider rail but obviously the best solution is to monitor the filling of the bag.

[Fman]

I agree, I always keep an eye on the bags when filling them, but its a nice backup to have a vent line just incase you get distracted. I only have the 600 lb bags in my lockers and so far there has been no issues with any damage to engine compartment dividers.

[FastFreddy]

Fman, I understand the pump acts like a closed valve when not running. The reason for the check and tee between the pump and ball valve is to allow water to drain through the vent line (above water) only instead of through the underwater through hull. This way i can monitor the emptying of the bag with the compartments closed. Same as the vent line. With my current setup i never have to open the compartments to monitor and ill never overfill a bag.

Its a little more complicated with more plumbing but i really like how it works.

[Chico]

you only need to vent the bag if you are not going to watch the bag fill... vent allows for excess air and for excess water to escape. You can manually vent if you are watching it fill. I manually vent because I don't want the extra hosing in the way because I use the lockers for storage when the bags are empty. if you want to fully automate and not watch, then it would be best to run vent lines.

[TallRedRider]

Fman, I understand the pump acts like a closed valve when not running. The reason for the check and tee between the pump and ball valve is to allow water to drain through the vent line (above water) only instead of through the underwater through hull. This way i can monitor the emptying of the bag with the compartments closed. Same as the vent line. With my current setup i never have to open the compartments to monitor and ill never overfill a bag.

Its a little more complicated with more plumbing but i really like how it works.

I plumbed mine like FastFreddy, because I like hearing the water flow out. When it goes out the bottom, it just doesn't feel as satisfying.

Plus, we can say that our boat pees like a man, over the side, not out the bottom, like a girl.

Edited June 30, 2013 by TallRedRider

[FastFreddy]

Also I was scared that if I forget to watch the bags fill I could cause a leak since the pumps seem like they can put out some pressure (at least 8.7psi based on the manual). 8psi could easily damage the seals and cause some seepage. The way I have it now when the bags are full the vent line pees off the side of the boat, also when I'm draining I know the bags are empty since the water stops. The check valves in the vent line makes sure the bags empty completely flat like a pancake and prevent backflow from the drain line to the vent line.

I'll add pictures of my install soon.

Edited June 30, 2013 by FastFreddy

[Tyger]

I probably got close to the full 1100# capacity before the bag popped the engine divider rail from the floor and everything moved into the engine compartment. Fortunately no permanent damage and I have now added an L shaped bracket to reinforce the engine divider rail but obviously the best solution is to monitor the filling of the bag.

I didn't have a vent on the surf sac on Stella. I had the bottom rail pop out numerous times. We finally screwed it down better, but mainly I just left the rear hatch open and watched it fill. On Lucy I'm going to put in a metal channel across the bottom and secure it a lot better.

Thanks for the help. Found this on WM.com

A: We strongly recommend having a dedicated vent/overflow connection for each bag in the system, especially when bags are to be hidden in storage lockers as many installs will be. That said, if you fully understand the reasons for that dedicated vent line (pressure relief and air purging), ultimately it’s up to you to weigh the pros and cons and come to a decision that works best for you.

One of the big advantages of a fully automated system though is that it allows you to fill while driving the boat across the lake, and that makes it incredibly easy to start filling the system, and leave it running for long enough that the bags are full and the pressure in the bag gets to a point that is dangerous.

If you know for sure that you will be able to monitor the bags during filling 100% of the time and you would rather not install the thru-hull fittings for venting the bags then an unvented system can be used. But we’ve had numerous customers that have installed systems using reversible pumps (that generate higher pressure than aerator pumps) without vent lines that have done significant damage to the trim panels in the locker and fiberglass/gelcoat of the deck of the boat. We understand the reluctance to drill additional holes in the boat, but our belief is that there is a right way to do everything, and the correct way to install an automated ballast system is with a dedicated vent connection for each bag

I think this sums it up pretty nicely. Personally I didn't mind watching it fill, although several times I knew it was full when the cushions popped up. :D Honestly, from my experience, if you've got an 1100 pounder or a custom sac, you need to straighten it out a bit as it fills, anyway, so you can't just hit the pump and let it fill sight unseen.