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Colby2ya

Proper wiring of stereo to dual batteries (yes i've searched but i need extra help) :)

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Colby2ya

Ok i searched other threads and still didn't get no direct answer on it. I saw that diagram people posted in other threads but that didn't help any. So i have a 07 VLX, dual batteries, perko switch, running only on zld, 3 amps, cabin speakers, tower speakers, sub. Plan is to hook up power wires for amps to dis. block. So my question(s) is can somebody draw or point in the direction for Wiring for dummies? I was having engine noise problems last summer so that's why i re did all my wires in my boat and want to hook it up to the batteries and perko switch the right way. Now it's time to start hooking everything back up to the battery. So i need to know what wire to hook up to what battery and what wire from perko switch to what battery. Including, wire from engine(alternator), fuse panel, etc... thanks!!

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Earmark Marine

It's pretty simple.

First, the engine block ground, helm negative ground buss, all audio grounds, and battery to battery grounds, are all common at the batteries.

The dual battery switch (Perko) will have a battery #1 post, battery #2 post, and an output post.

Battery #1 post direct to battery #1.

Battery #2 post direct to battery #2.

The alternator/starter feed, helm positive buss/fuse panel (which also has a breaker at the battery supply end), and ALL audio electronics positive supplies will be connected to the dual battery switch output post.

Nothing will be wired battery-direct beyond the dual battery switch posts #1 & 2, a bilge pump/float switch if applicable, and the option of the source unit memory.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be divided with a distribution block and so will the audio equipment grounds with its own distribution block. This way you will limit the number of terminations that are stacked on the dual battery switch output post.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be master fused/breakered between the dual battery switch and the positive distribution block as close as possible to the dual battery switch.

All audio source unit and processor supplies and grounds will be removed from the factory harness and procurred from the same distribution blocks as feeding the amplifiers. You will fuse the source unit supply at or close to the positive distribution block. Use a 14 ga. min./ 12 ga. max. + & - for the source electronics run. You'll have no noise with this scheme.

David

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robtr8

It's pretty simple.

First, the engine block ground, helm negative ground buss, all audio grounds, and battery to battery grounds, are all common at the batteries.

The dual battery switch (Perko) will have a battery #1 post, battery #2 post, and an output post.

Battery #1 post direct to battery #1.

Battery #2 post direct to battery #2.

The alternator/starter feed, helm positive buss/fuse panel (which also has a breaker at the battery supply end), and ALL audio electronics positive supplies will be connected to the dual battery switch output post.

Nothing will be wired battery-direct beyond the dual battery switch posts #1 & 2, a bilge pump/float switch if applicable, and the option of the source unit memory.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be divided with a distribution block and so will the audio equipment grounds with its own distribution block. This way you will limit the number of terminations that are stacked on the dual battery switch output post.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be master fused/breakered between the dual battery switch and the positive distribution block as close as possible to the dual battery switch.

All audio source unit and processor supplies and grounds will be removed from the factory harness and procurred from the same distribution blocks as feeding the amplifiers. You will fuse the source unit supply at or close to the positive distribution block. Use a 14 ga. min./ 12 ga. max. + & - for the source electronics run. You'll have no noise with this scheme.

David

This needs a Sticky!

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flapjack

I hope this isn't a hijack, but I have not seen a good diagram that includes Malivue/MTC into the mix.

More specifically, what's the best way to hook up a ACR/VSR in a dual battery setup with Malivue/MTC? I don't think I want the Malivue/MTC running off the starter battery. The issue is further confounded with the integration of the Rockford Fosgate head unit into Malivue...

What does Malibu do in battery option 3? Anyone got a wiring diagram of battery option 3?

Maybe I just suck at searching the forum, so I'm happy to be pointed in that direction.

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Earmark Marine

flapjack,

You make a very good point on the more recent BUs with a touch screen. So those with older BUs should definitely ignore this exchange so that they don't get confused.

Since the newer boats are dependent on keeping the stereo displays within the factory wiring, you cannot easily separate them.

Another alternative wiring scheme could invite the low voltage alarm.

Another alternative wiring scheme separating the souce electronics from the amplifiers will invite noise.

So I'm not secure with using an ACR/VSR with a larger audio system in combination with a very large capacity stereo battery bank on the newer BU. Alot of battery depletion simultanious with a large stereo draw can keep an ACR/VSR open. I would prefer to keep the alternator feeding both banks when the boat is in operation in order to avoid every potential conflict. So I would stay with a manual dual battery switch unless the audio system size and battery capacity are both moderate or until you think through this thoroughly.

David

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Colby2ya

It's pretty simple.

First, the engine block ground, helm negative ground buss, all audio grounds, and battery to battery grounds, are all common at the batteries.

The dual battery switch (Perko) will have a battery #1 post, battery #2 post, and an output post.

Battery #1 post direct to battery #1.

Battery #2 post direct to battery #2.

The alternator/starter feed, helm positive buss/fuse panel (which also has a breaker at the battery supply end), and ALL audio electronics positive supplies will be connected to the dual battery switch output post.

Nothing will be wired battery-direct beyond the dual battery switch posts #1 & 2, a bilge pump/float switch if applicable, and the option of the source unit memory.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be divided with a distribution block and so will the audio equipment grounds with its own distribution block. This way you will limit the number of terminations that are stacked on the dual battery switch output post.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be master fused/breakered between the dual battery switch and the positive distribution block as close as possible to the dual battery switch.

All audio source unit and processor supplies and grounds will be removed from the factory harness and procurred from the same distribution blocks as feeding the amplifiers. You will fuse the source unit supply at or close to the positive distribution block. Use a 14 ga. min./ 12 ga. max. + & - for the source electronics run. You'll have no noise with this scheme.

David

thanks for the help david. Anyway you can draw a simple diagram and take a picture of it lol. Asking a lot i know... i'm pretty illiterate when it comes to electric work..

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Earmark Marine

thanks for the help david. Anyway you can draw a simple diagram and take a picture of it lol. Asking a lot i know... i'm pretty illiterate when it comes to electric work..

Why don't you take the above instructions one line at a time and draw your own schematic. So you might waste a couple of sheets of paper in the process. Then you can post up to verify that it's correct. A number of members can confirm this, although I will help too. If you are the one drawing it out I can assure you that you will have it down cold afterwards.

To make it visually simple do all the grounds in a separate schematic.

Identify all the positive components and terminals and then connect the dots.

David

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nuttyskier2002

I have a question reguarding the routing of my RCA cables to my amps when using the Wetsounds WS-420. This unit has one set of inputs and three sets of outputs (RCA). Only one of the 3 sets of ouputs is dedicated for inboat amps/speakers. I'm using 2 in boat amps to drive 8 speakers. Speaker location goes as follows: One pair for the bow, one pair for the dash, one pair for the side panels (aftward of the driver's seat) and one pair in the rear mounted in the back seat vertical support (between floor and seat cushions. I'm using a pair of Polk PA500.4 amps to drive the 8 inboat speakers. One of these amps is set for 4 ch input and will drive the dash and bow speakers. The other amp is set for 2 ch and will drive the other 4 speakers in the rear. I want to be able to control the volume of the bow and dash speakers separate from the rear. So here's my question: If I split the inboat RCA outs (from WS-420) by 3 ways and run two of these RCA pairs to 2 PAC LC-1 line level controllers then send both of thses signals through 2 pairs of RCA cables to my amp set for 4 ch, then send the 3rd pair of RCA's to the 2nd amp set for 2 ch.........will I lose signal strength/integrity. If this is not the right way to connect the RCA cables/controllers can you tell me how I should proceed? Thanks!

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Earmark Marine

Nutty,

Most EQs have a single stereo IC chip that drives both the in-boat zone and tower zone via a passive/resistive control pot. So it's already split once. Splitting it three more times on one side is questionable because the preout voltage is so divided up now. However, if you have an EQ with six discrete outputs then you are in much better shape for this division.

I'm not fimilar with your amplifiers. But verify whether or not, they have an RCA preamp pass-through. Then verify if the pass-through is just an internal 'Y' or buffered with an internal OP amp. If it's no more than an internal 'Y' then it's no different than using external RCA 'Y' adapters. But if there is an internal buffering OP amp then you can come out of the fixed 2-channel mode model before splitting into the controllers and into the 4-channel mode model. This will save 'Y' adapters and preserve a little preamp voltage. Of course this scheme may not correspond with the RCA cable path that you are choosing because it will create some back and forth and longer RCA runs depending on the amplifier locations. That would be counter-productive.

Try it first without the level controllers inserted. If the voltage division causes to have to raise the amplifier input gains to the point of a higher and noticable noise floor and hiss then skip the passive level controllers and instead go with a 4-channel line driver/controller that uses a remote control RJ cable which does not extend the signal path. Now you will have tons of voltage and the division will be a non issue. Cables will be minimized.

David

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bamabonners

the factory rockford amps on my VLX were wired as nuttyskier described. the 4 channel amp a passthrough to the second amplifier. I did just as he described to run my tower speakers seperately off of a third amp. It worked. i was able to fade between towers, bow, and cab. Draw back was that it introduced a noticeable hiss.

I determined that it was because of the additional splitting. Problem is, in my mind, that the fosgate black box needs more outputs. i would rather have an upgraded head unit that is seperate from the malivue that would allow me the freedom to run mulitple zones. I could care less about controlling the stereo from malivue.

Edited by bamabonners

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nuttyskier2002

David, Thank you for the reponse and suggestion. I will contact WS tomorrow to verify this. But check me here though to see if this makes sense. The WS-420 has 3 sets of RCA outputs. One set dedicated to tower, one set dedicated to in boat and one set dedicated to the sub. All three have separate volume controls. The tower and in boat outs have separte parametric EQ adjustment controls (separate from each other). The microphone when keyed only sends sound thru the tower outs. Both inboat and tower outs are full freq range but the sub outs are low pass limited to 300Hz. I would think all this means there would have to be 3 independent op amps each operating it's own set of RCA outs in this unit. Is this right? Also the RCA outs are advertised to have 5V RMS output. Most head units (at least the older ones) advertise only to have around 2V RMS at line level. My amps have an input impedence of 20 K ohms at the RCA ins. Is this not enough to prevent signal loading if trying to feed 3 of them? Not trying to present any argument here.....just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

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Earmark Marine

Nutty,

Everything you stated sounds correct.

There is still a small concern with the preout voltage division being split three ways. You will not get a voltage premium when splitting the preouts as you lower the load like you would with a power amplifier. You will divide a somewhat static voltage. You will be able to adjust your amplifier input gains to offset the voltage division and still reach full power...no problem. But that usually results in raising the noise floor. In order to know if the noise floor will be tolerable or not, you will just need to try it. If you want to add more voltage after the fact, I offered one possible solution above.

David

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nuttyskier2002

Update: I hooked up the WS-420 to my head unit and amps as I talked about above (minus the PAC-LC1's at this time). So far everthing sounds pretty good. The Inboat RCA out pair is split into three to feed 4 channels on one amp and 2 on the other. I did not have to increase the gain on any amp to get good volume. The system has plenty of head room and sounds very good at low volumes too. There is some noise but it's only noticeable at pauses between music. I can't hear it otherwise. I'm still thinking about getting an adjustable line driver though......as when I do connect in the passive volume controllers there will be more losses. I'm leaning toward to AudioControl Matrix Plus. This is a 6 channel system and is capable of producing a gain of up to 24 db up to a max of 9.5 volts RMS. I figure with this unit I'll be able to reduce the gain on all my amps and get rid of all noise (noise produced by the amps anyway).

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Earmark Marine

nutty,

You are fortunate to have six discrete outputs. 5 volts is very good. From a voltage standpoint I probably wouldn't address anything beyond the divided single stereo output in question.

You can determine the exact noise produced from an amplifier by shorting the inputs with the input gain elevated. I think you will find that most amplifiers in isolation do not create enough noise to address.

Most noise, as in hiss, comes from the processor up stream in the signal path or poor level matching between components or poorly matched components. A roller coaster gain ride, up and down between components, is a real culprit. Lowering the amplifier gains simply attenuates the noise floor. Greater voltage creates more differential between the music signal and the fixed noise floor.

Here is another suggestion. Get a good quality stereo (2-channel) line driver. As a trial, run the line driver between the source unit ouput and EQ input. (Not needed if you already have a 4 or 5 volt head unit). Easy does it on the gain because it would be easy to saturate an EQ input stage. If this experiment serves to reduce noise in all zones, then you have a better place to apply a line driver. You can still add a second line driver to the in-boat zone output between the EQ and amplifiers if you feel it's needed. The above test takes any speculation out of the decision.

Sidenote....the ideal scenario would be to have great gain at the beginning of the signal path and then to keep that gain consistent to the end of the signal path or in a slight reduction from component to component to the end. The one component that has to multiply the gain can be a noise maker.

David

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Earmark Marine

nutty,

Btw, one of my coworkers, Odin, has a great deal of hands on experience in Live Sound Engineering so he could write a book on the subject of gain structure.

David

Edited by Earmark Marine

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Murphy8166

To add to David's point on adding a 2 channel Line Driver b/t the source and the WS-420....several guys have done this exact thng and they really liked it!!!!.

Take a look at the Audioncontrol overdrive or the Arc Audio ALD.

Better yet - go over to Wakeworld and Tigeowners.com and there is a lot of info about this exact remedy

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nuttyskier2002

David and Murphy, My head unit is a Pioneer DEH-80PRS. I know it's not a marine unit but my old Alpine sounded just plain bland. This Pioneer has a 16 band graphic equalizer, it's own audio processor and a ton of other features. Too many to mention here. And yes it is advertised to put out up to 5 VRMS on the pre-outs. So I believe I do have enough signal strength going into the WS-420. I realize that I don't need a 2nd graphic equalizer but I chose the WS-420 for it's zone control and PA features and the Wet Sounds reputation and service.

Edited by nuttyskier2002

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Tclark
On 1/24/2013 at 8:24 PM, Earmark Marine said:

It's pretty simple.

First, the engine block ground, helm negative ground buss, all audio grounds, and battery to battery grounds, are all common at the batteries.

The dual battery switch (Perko) will have a battery #1 post, battery #2 post, and an output post.

Battery #1 post direct to battery #1.

Battery #2 post direct to battery #2.

The alternator/starter feed, helm positive buss/fuse panel (which also has a breaker at the battery supply end), and ALL audio electronics positive supplies will be connected to the dual battery switch output post.

Nothing will be wired battery-direct beyond the dual battery switch posts #1 & 2, a bilge pump/float switch if applicable, and the option of the source unit memory.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be divided with a distribution block and so will the audio equipment grounds with its own distribution block. This way you will limit the number of terminations that are stacked on the dual battery switch output post.

The audio equipment positive supplies will be master fused/breakered between the dual battery switch and the positive distribution block as close as possible to the dual battery switch.

All audio source unit and processor supplies and grounds will be removed from the factory harness and procurred from the same distribution blocks as feeding the amplifiers. You will fuse the source unit supply at or close to the positive distribution block. Use a 14 ga. min./ 12 ga. max. + & - for the source electronics run. You'll have no noise with this scheme.

David

Hey Davi, thanks for info, I actually adding a second battery right now and I need help, lol also have another question. But I have one battery hooked up with a switch (1,2,both) under glovebox, right next to batters. I'm installing a second battery, I ran a ground from the first battery, over to the new battery, and I ran a hot (red) wire from new battery to the #2 post. There for when I put it on #2 my sterio won't work because the amps are all running to the battery #1 , how do I make is to either battery will run the radio, and start the blat. Thanks Trey

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shawndoggy
1 hour ago, Tclark said:

Hey Davi, thanks for info, I actually adding a second battery right now and I need help, lol also have another question. But I have one battery hooked up with a switch (1,2,both) under glovebox, right next to batters. I'm installing a second battery, I ran a ground from the first battery, over to the new battery, and I ran a hot (red) wire from new battery to the #2 post. There for when I put it on #2 my sterio won't work because the amps are all running to the battery #1 , how do I make is to either battery will run the radio, and start the blat. Thanks Trey

having a hard time envisioning this.

with a 1-2-all-off switch all loads should be on the common post.  If your stereo equipment is fed from the common post, it will work whether the switch is on 1 or 2.

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Tclark
13 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

Alright prevously I had all three amps, black (ground) ran into a 3 to 1 then ran to the battery #1negative post, red (hot) ran into a 3 to 1 , then ran to the positive post on battery #1. Then I have a red (hot) ran to the #1 on the switch. There for if I turn the switch on #1 boats and sterio works, switch it to battery #2, (when there wasn't a battery) didn't do nothing . There for I added a second battery, and ran a black (ground) from the #1 batter post to the new ground battery post. Then I ran the hot from battery #2 to the battery #2 switch . but now the sterio will not turn on when the switch is on #2 ( because amps and sterio are ran to #1 battery) so how do I run my amps and sterio yo battery #2. Do I need a 3 in 2 for hot and ground and run it to each battery as like its ran to the first battery? Or can I run my battery's in a circuit and instead of having battery #1 and #2 it would just be a 24v battery? Or I that a over load. I would like to flip switch from battery 1, or 2 and beavble to play radio and amps and all from either battery.

 

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shawndoggy

As I said in my prior post -- with a 1-2-all-off switch, EVERYTHING needs to be wired to the common post on the switch.  So instead of wiring the stereo stuff to battery 1, you need to wire it to the common post on the switch.  

Forget all of your other ideas, please.  You definitely DO NOT want to run your batteries in series, and if you run your power from both batteries, why have a switch at all (what you've effectively done is created one big battery, with the switch not doing much of anything)?

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Tclark
13 hours ago, shawndoggy said:

Alroght I think I understand it now! Yes I do not want to run them in a circuit! See the way they had it before me the had the red and black running straight to batter, nothing to do with the common on the switch! So I hook the red up to the common post on the switch and then the grounds just have to be hookeup to the each battery correct? They have nothing hooked up to the common post I get I know I think. I'll try when I get off work thanks a lot man!

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shawndoggy

You should have three things on the common post: your lead from the alternator/starter, your lead to the stuff under the helm, and your stereo lead.  then you'd have one lead each on 1 and 2, each going to their respective battery.  

Sounds like you have ground set up correctly already, with the big ground cable terminating to one of the batteries and then having a jumper over to the ground on the other battery.

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Tclark
4 minutes ago, shawndoggy said:

You should have three things on the common post: your lead from the alternator/starter, your lead to the stuff under the helm, and your stereo lead.  then you'd have one lead each on 1 and 2, each going to their respective battery.  

Sounds like you have ground set up correctly already, with the big ground cable terminating to one of the batteries and then having a jumper over to the ground on the other battery.

Alright sounds like I might have it covered, so the only thing running from the positive post on each battery should be one red/hot wire from each battery going to #1 on switch and the other to the #2 on the switch...And the radio red wire, and the alternator red wire should go to common. But what is under the helm wire ? 

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