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getting rid of head unit


bvdhvy

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In the olden days when their tower speakers were really harsh, it made sense for wetsounds to have an eq that would let you tame that somewhat without correspondingly taking all of the highs out of the cabin speakers. The rev10s (and presumably the 8s, though I don't have first hand experience with them) don't need to be eq'd independently from the cabin speakers.

A ZLD on well powered Rev10s is the cats meow. Don't knock it till you try it, it might be something good.

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Oh I get you somewhat.. I've tried the ZLD as well... I concur that the two added burr brown amps make a small difference at flat on the EQ but can be dialed with the 420 ;) you can get those EQs comparable to a ZLD internals for like $100 or less... I just think its over priced for what you get, don't ya think? I didn't like the fade on it, most crossover their components at the amp properly which makes the crossover on the 420or ZLD useless and not in the equation either... The 420 still has separate sub control unless you turn the inboats all the way down.. Theirs just not much downfall to its benefits??

As far as towers, I agree :) he should get rev10's but, he hasn't decided and unless he gets the best speakers on the market he will want that tune separation for any other set up, correct? Maybe Wetsounds kept it for other speakers that havnt advanced as far? :) My revs still needed separate tuning, it is key to treat the tower as a separate zone (because of the distance mainly) to get the best bang for your buck, I also agree that there is a night and day difference between the two buddy, mines just 420 over ZLD, opposite of the other guys :) I'm the black sheep I guess ;)

BVD,

It's your call, just do your homework and decide your cup of tea :)

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Truekaotik- My hiss like most was due to the unit itself. Wetsounds was very helpful and actually had one of there local shops review and look at my issue. Even they said it was the unit. While wetsounds eq is great for every reason you mentioned. For some one looking to dump their headunit I don't think the small inner outer knob configuration is the way to go. While the zld is simpler that is the beauty of it as a headunit replacement.

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While I agree it has to do with the 420, I was able to eliminate it unless you were in a quiet pole barn with your ear 6" from the rev. You didn't notice it in the coaxials unless your ear was on it.. On the lake with ambient noises you will never hear it. If so I'm guessing flaws somewhere building to the EQ. I am honestly just guessing its the mic set up inside.. It was a pain, yes but the mic volume has ALOT to do with the strength of the noise. The other thing I did was completely isolate my RCAs from any power or ground source, put a barrier between the EQ and head unit... I'm not a electronics geek but a hillbilly ;) I'm seriously thinking it has to do with bleeding to the mic circuits?? I don't know, maybe I'm crazy :) Just my experiences with it.. I could be way off... But no one has ever said anything about the noise unless pointed out and listening... I will concur that a bulky knob would benefit over a inner/outer knob.. You got me there, but easily overcomed If ya wanted it to be... The mic is just so much fun at inappropriate times.. LoL :) tuff decision I guess for BVD???

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the 420 is in a realm of its own, meaning other EQs just don't compare to its complexity and design at this moment. As far as EQs go, it's my opinion, that its far superior to any other EQ to date. Most run on the same platform and the 420 is NOT one of them.. I can see where the smaller knob may be a little more complex in use compared to the Exiles when not running a head unit.. The exile also has 3 zones without the use of a additional piece but still 90's circuitry... They crammed alot of technology into that chasis.. the bluetooth is a good recommendation if your not worried about getting your phone or ipod wet?...

Out of curiousity, what specifically, is so complex in design about the WS-420?

With all due respect, I believe you're misinformed. The WS-420 does run on the same platform as the majority of EQ's in the car audio market, and come from the same place just like the majority of EQ's on the market. http://www.easoco.com.tw/eqalizer1.html. The truth is it's just a run of the mill EQ.

Here's a solution for that overly complex microphone integration, take a $35 Cadence CEQ-773, rename the MP3 gain control and MP3 jack with "Mic", download one of the many free microphone apps to your smart phone, plug it in to your EQ ....and voila, you have PA!

The 90's circruity? Do you know why audiophiles pay high dollar for used 90's models mobile amps or why they do critical listening with vacuum based tube amps? The answer...sound quality. Sound quality in electronics is largely getting worse with time. The latest great breakthrough in audio (IMO) was the Tripath 2020, and that came out in 98.

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Out of curiousity, what specifically, is so complex in design about the WS-420?

With all due respect, I believe you're misinformed. The WS-420 does run on the same platform as the majority of EQ's in the car audio market, and come from the same place just like the majority of EQ's on the market. http://www.easoco.com.tw/eqalizer1.html. The truth is it's just a run of the mill EQ.

Here's a solution for that overly complex microphone integration, take a $35 Cadence CEQ-773, rename the MP3 gain control and MP3 jack with "Mic", download one of the many free microphone apps to your smart phone, plug it in to your EQ ....and voila, you have PA!

The 90's circruity? Do you know why audiophiles pay high dollar for used 90's models mobile amps or why they do critical listening with vacuum based tube amps? The answer...sound quality. Sound quality in electronics is largely getting worse with time. The latest great breakthrough in audio (IMO) was the Tripath 2020, and that came out in 98.

Your kidding right??? Explain to me what those EQ's posted have in common with the 420 besides the somewhat similar chassis? Have you ever even opened a EQ? :) Being a Audiophile, you should be able to get more detailed on the similarities correct? Lets hear some?

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Your kidding right??? Explain to me what those EQ's posted have in common with the 420 besides the somewhat similar chassis? Have you ever even opened a EQ? :) Being a Audiophile, you should be able to get more detailed on the similarities correct? Lets hear some?

No, I'm not kidding, I'm sorry. I know how you're feeling, I felt the same way when my parents told me Santa Clause wasn't real.

I didn't claim or suggest that I'm an audiophile. I have opened an EQ before, and also open up much more advanced RF/SATCOM electronics Monday-Friday.

You definitely avoided my question regarding your complexity claims (which I anticipated). I'm going to do the same, not because I can't answer it, but because I'm not going to examine EQ's to point out bold similarites and subtle differences for you. I encourage you to do it, though. I'll give you something to start with. All of these EQ's come from the same buildhouse.

01.jpg

qeq5.jpg

4555-2.jpg?1331038937

xeq_5xo.jpg

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True- you sound like you really know what you are talking about, and you must have a lot of experience. What's your setup and how do you have it put together?

Reason I ask is lots of folks over time come on here with pretty strong opinions on gear, and often we find that folks who have the strongest opinions often have very narrow experiences, OR are arguing because they have something to gain in return for kickbacks or whatever.

You got 3 guys on here with self built systems, all ran 420s and now have ZLDs and wouldn't go back. Besides the handmike no one besides you cares about, and the extra band of EQ (and for anyone who knows anything about 3-4 band EQs knows that with only 3-4 bands, they create very sharp, discrete spikes in the music tone, not balanced, so 95% of folks basically have them flat), the 420 has a rep of introducing noise and isn't as ergo as the ZLD with the twin bezel setup. Sub tied to the inboats is retarded. Also ZLD sound processing is better, I had them back to back on my boat, within 5 mins of each other. I ran the 420 for 5 months.

So tell us about your setup, your experiences with both ZLD and 420 and why anyone should consider anything you are spewing?

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Im sorry for asking a honest question guys. I know im new to this particular forum, the reason I came on here was because im thinking of going Malibu again in a year... Im no drone, asked David or Mike, I just like helping with my opinions and Experiences, like we all do. I am only responding to posts directed at me now and my opinion.. I brought up a Different way and I get pummeled with ridicule and now I have no idea what I do on a daily basis? Again sorry for going against malibus grain....

First off CRF. You post like you think your a audiophile giving your opinion on sq and how I'm misinformed but can't give technical details? I didn't call you out, you called me out, so I would think you have supported technical facts to tell me why and how they are similar? . Amps are produced in the same factory as well, so your saying a JL topology is the same as a Audiopipe?? No.. . So ill bite to see if you know what your talking about... Now to stay a little tame so you can understand better and it don't go over your heads, here we go... Those aren't the exact same EQs, the first batch you showed barely looked the same for one, so that tells me immediately your Pulling my chain... the closest one is the krypt knock off picture, yes just that a pic.. it never made production and the old knock off cant be sold from the word on the streets. check other forums, CCC to be exact... the word on the street is Ken sent a 420 to china to reverse engineer it and copy ( not my words) Funny someone would go to that extent if they are all "on the same platform"?? The other two aren't even close besides again the chassis, like the others you posted before.. Atleast you found a closer match with the Krypt bro ;)... The 420 is two EQs in one chassis, has a built in mic and link system and your telling me those are the exact same EQs as the 420? Who's full of themselves now? Now I've said that, can you tell me why the mic inside is complex? If not, I can later ;) It's not the same, the ZLD uses a readily available platform absolute EQ400 with two burr brown Op amps and Exile slapped on it. .. Oh, and its connected to the knobs a little different. i didnt say it was a bad EQ, just that the 420 is in a league of its own compared... He got it for a price comparable to the existing topology it uses and I congratulated him on his purchase, I never said it was a bad choice, just not worth the money IMO.. Oh and another thing, the 420 won the engineering award back in 08 for the 420, guess they just give those away to every EQ builder huh?? Yes I do think its a superior piece to the ZLD, but I didn't trash the others opinions, just gave a black sheep side to the other posts saying it was junk. Yes it has a slight hiss at off zero volume, it isn't even a issue to MANY as I stated. We are talking about open field boats here with tons of background noises... Now tell me what makes them technically the same?? And please don't start with the two $5 burr brown amps inside or the similar chassis ... Another technical piece I will give away on the Exile side... I'll wait until you go post on DIYMA and get back to me ;) I can get way more technical on both EQs....

Ryan,

Nice sarcastic comment toward questioning my skill level :) I am just a hilbilly as stated in my other post above... I am on WW and CCC under the same name unlike some.. I will gladly tell you, I currently run syn4's, JL interior, JL sub, ws420, pair rev10's.. I have a sinister6, 2 added pairs of inboats and 410 in works to add to the existing setup ( rebuying of course) for the next wake setter I get... I didn't want to add them to the Avy cause the stereo will go with the boat... I had a boat with pioneer/ quartz, Kicker... A boat with exile/Rockford/ JL...these are all personal boats I built...

I'm glad you run a flat EQ, why use it then beside for the preouts? which you can do in different fashions for cheaper? My towers needs separate tuning for obvious beneficial reasons, most audiophiles will concur. Subs tied to inboats is retarded? Lol while it may cause ONE problem, when turning inboats down, there is a separate knob to adjust the sub on the EQ.. Now you know it all and work in audio as well? Im in no way bashing on any product, just saying there are benefits to certain products over others, everything has its trade offs in audio... Any more questions guys? :) feel free to degrade my knowledge some more if you feel it necessary.. But I'm here to stay so let's be friends not enemies and respect each others opinions, please :)

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Hey True, it's december, it's dark, it's cold and for lots of us summer is as far away as it's gonna get. So take any chest pounding posts on here with that grain of salt.

That said, you've got to admit that it's a bit disingenuous to dismiss the 420's well documented hiss problem on the one hand as being not a big deal in an open air environment and then tell us that "as an audiophile" you need to be able to separately tune your tower speakers, which, again, I'm assuming you are using in the same open air environment. How much different do your cabin and tower eq settings look anyhow? For many a DIY guy, myself included, that hiss is unforgivable. On my boat the stereo is at conversational levels unless someone has the handle in their hands behind the boat. So when I had a 420, I heard the 420's hiss all the time. Maybe you have the stereo turned up enough that it overpowers the hiss, but many don't.

I really like the idea of the 420 with its dual EQs. Makes great sense on paper. When trying to make quick adjustments while turning around to pick up a rider on a busy weekend, though, those sticky, micro sized inside-outside knobs are very difficult to turn by touch. Maybe I'm hamfisted or just not smart enough to use such an advanced piece of technology. I don't think so, though. I think wetsounds just missed the mark a hair on the ergonomics. Remember, this isn't a "set it and forget it" piece, it's something that's intended to be turned up and down very frequently. I always felt like I needed a pair of tweezers to do it right.

I also agree with Ryan about how the sub works on the 420. Makes much more sense to have master volume and a fade between towers and cabins. At least for me.

Street price on the clarion unit is about $50, ZLD $200, WS420 $300. Bang for the buck wise the clarion wins hands down. The sub section on the ZLD is better, and the ZLD is a touch quieter than the clarion (clarion would still give some very very mild hiss if you stick your ear to a rev10 in a quiet garage), but is that worth 4x the price? dunno. I know that for someone on a budget I can recommend the clarion without reservation.

Edited by shawndoggy
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Wow, rough crowd...

Shawn,

You seriously play with the EQ portion while under way in the boat? Not good, there are way to many factors on open water that will compromise your ability to hear distortion as easy as if done in a quiet shop say.. Do you throttle the volume to any number as well? Just so it sounds good? You really should set restraints on your setup... You should tune your system in the shop or outside, once.... Take your time and tune each piece separately as its own entity with the EQ flat. Then you will play it all and hear the combined output, then if needed you can fine tune each zone off flat. My inboats are flat with the mid a tad off, my towers are adjusted differently with midbass just off and the treble actually a hair left of flat.. So yes they are tuned independent... And I only mess with 3 knobs on it at any time ( tower/inboat, sub volumes) and that's just to turn each down at certain points in the day.. , the inboat volume when surfing, and yes I want the sub turned down with the inboats. Say your talking, turn the inboats down but still have the sub blaring in your face? Can you talk still? No. It's being attached to the inboats is a plus in my book. This will be the only time you will want the inboats turned down correct? To have a conversation while someone surfs or boards? With the sub up that's not possible. The tower I turn down on occasion to not blast the whole lake, the sub I turn down with adults in it so its not basing them out. That's it. I have transom remote so I can control it out of the water. It is the most practical piece I've owned over any EQ. I only hear the hiss at zero volume on many of the systems I've installed, if your hearing it at low volume driving around then your mic volume had to be to high or you may of had a underlying issue? I really can't say, I'm no psychic... But I play with these product daily and don't consider myself a audiophile... I will mismatch products all day long to get the best sound...

I need to Finnish my installs for the day but will get back on and get more in depth if you would like? Have a great afternoon guys :)

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Sorry, no, I do not do any online sales and will not say who I work for on any forum I don't carry these products.... If you happen to be in my town and walk in my shop, more power to you but I am not on these forums for business, it is strictly pleasure of owning a boat and my opinions to help others out with my take on info... :) sorry again, I just like to talk on these forums... :(

Edited by Truekaotik
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True- just trying to figure out why you are pushing a product lots of folks are turning away from for lots of the same reasons that is x2 more pricey.

No, certainly no audiophile here... Average guy putting the best package he can together on a budget. 2nd boat, somewhere around 7-8 stereo versions between the 2 boats.

I didn't buy the ZLD for an EQ at all, I bought it for the ZLD in the ZLD only. LD to get better sound and no hiss, the Z to be able to truly control the 3 zones easily. I run the EQ on it mostly flat, and use the ROCK preset on the fosgate HU. No other single quality product on the market offers in 1 package what the ZLD does for 150$.

Have you done a side by side comparison on the same system to compare the 2? We have.

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True- just trying to figure out why you are pushing a product lots of folks are turning away from for lots of the same reasons that is x2 more pricey.

No, certainly no audiophile here... Average guy putting the best package he can together on a budget. 2nd boat, somewhere around 7-8 stereo versions between the 2 boats.

I didn't buy the ZLD for an EQ at all, I bought it for the ZLD in the ZLD only. LD to get better sound and no hiss, the Z to be able to truly control the 3 zones easily. I run the EQ on it mostly flat, and use the ROCK preset on the fosgate HU. No other single quality product on the market offers in 1 package what the ZLD does for 150$.

Have you done a side by side comparison on the same system to compare the 2? We have.

Yes I have... but I will pull it out of the closet again and stick it in, without a tune, that's too much work to tune again.. Just to see results I already had in a boat for awhile and replaced it.... Side by side? How do you do that in one boat and one system? At the same time? not practical i would think to be honest... You would need a retune for each piece? That's fine you guys like it, I don't, sorry... No need to keep beating me up for liking something different.. I can control my 3 zones perfectly fine with the 420... I explained how and why above^ :) again I have no hiss... Also I wouldn't use any pre set EQ on any head unit ever, so we differ there as well... We all have our own opinion on what's the best I guess.... If you only bought it for the zones and the line driver, you could got away cheaper IMO. You could put a LC1 on the 2 zones and use a EBC on the sub amp? Some amps have wired controls for hi pass amps as well.. Bought a $20 line driver?.. ;) same thing, right? Just sayin we all have different opinions I guess..

I don't know why I'm getting the third degree though on my question... :( you guys really hate the 420 it seems...

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Truekaotik, are you an audio dealer? Can we buy these audio pieces from you?

CRF-Rider, same question, are you an audio dealer?

No, I am not an audio dealer nor do I have any affiliation with any audio dealer, manufacturer, etc. I work for the DoD, and enjoy DIY projects as a hobby. I also like to help others out and share my knowledge while gaining knowledge, which is the sole reason I joined this board. Additionally, I hate to see naive consumers be mislead by brilliant marketing.

I built this for my buddy's Polaris UTV last weekend, I'm merely an enthusiast.

SU1BRzAyMDYuanBn.jpg

Edited by CRF-Rider
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Wow, rough crowd...

Shawn,

You seriously play with the EQ portion while under way in the boat? Not good, there are way to many factors on open water that will compromise your ability to hear distortion as easy as if done in a quiet shop say.. Do you throttle the volume to any number as well? Just so it sounds good? You really should set restraints on your setup... You should tune your system in the shop or outside, once.... Take your time and tune each piece separately as its own entity with the EQ flat. Then you will play it all and hear the combined output, then if needed you can fine tune each zone off flat. My inboats are flat with the mid a tad off, my towers are adjusted differently with midbass just off and the treble actually a hair left of flat.. So yes they are tuned independent... And I only mess with 3 knobs on it at any time ( tower/inboat, sub volumes) and that's just to turn each down at certain points in the day.. , the inboat volume when surfing, and yes I want the sub turned down with the inboats. Say your talking, turn the inboats down but still have the sub blaring in your face? Can you talk still? No. It's being attached to the inboats is a plus in my book. This will be the only time you will want the inboats turned down correct? To have a conversation while someone surfs or boards? With the sub up that's not possible. The tower I turn down on occasion to not blast the whole lake, the sub I turn down with adults in it so its not basing them out. That's it. I have transom remote so I can control it out of the water. It is the most practical piece I've owned over any EQ. I only hear the hiss at zero volume on many of the systems I've installed, if your hearing it at low volume driving around then your mic volume had to be to high or you may of had a underlying issue? I really can't say, I'm no psychic... But I play with these product daily and don't consider myself a audiophile... I will mismatch products all day long to get the best sound...

I need to Finnish my installs for the day but will get back on and get more in depth if you would like? Have a great afternoon guys :)

I turn the volume up and down a lot. I vary between cabin and towers a lot.

Yes I have tuned my system and know how to set gains.

My headunit has a fixed output line out, so I'm not really sure what you are asking about with the "volume number," but as stated above, I do know how to set gains and have done so correctly.

Thanks for checking.

(none of which has anything to do with the ergonomics of the two equalizers, which was the topic of my post).

Now one other deficiency with the WS420 (at least the version manufactured since 2009) that we haven't addressed is that the input sensitivity is fixed, so if you have two sources, say a nice headunit and an ipod, you can't equalize their input level, which means you have to tune your system to the more powerful source (probably the headunit), and leave the other source (probably the ipod) sounding weak. Or you have to throw more money at the problem and buy a line driver.

Both the Clarion and the ZLD have adjustable input gains which would allow a user to equalize the input signals between those sources.

Edited by shawndoggy
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CRF -Rider...BennyD - Are you BenDow from Wakeworld?

From the looks of it you have a Texas License Plate and BenDow was in the San Antonio area.

What happened over on Wakeworld?

Edited by Murphy8166
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CRF -Rider...BennyD - Are you BenDow from Wakeworld?

From the looks of it you have a Texas License Plate and BenDow was in the San Antonio area.

What happened over on Wakeworld?

Irony.

Yes, that's me. Dave banned me for this thread when I fired back at you (I appologize and hope you didn't take it personal) and Earmark. He also said he banned me for "advertising" because later on that evening I posted a craigslist add by Bravox Audio. Bravox was/is shutting down their US location, and were selling their M6-ID, WS-65 equivalent, for $32 a pair. I discovered the sale when I did a "site:craigslist.org bravox" Google query, and figured I'd share my discovery with the community.

I was a bit disheartened by it, considering I was a member for so many years, and contributed (came up with the DIY section idea, donated money for Colby, had a huge wakeworld sticker on my truck for years, made a lot of friends in the non-wake section, etc), but I do understand where he was coming from and I'm sure some advertisers weren't too happy about their products being correlated to another. I left quietly, and didn't attempt to come back under another username.

I only joined this board while doing a google search (for PPI I think), and ran across a thread that I decided to chime in on. I really didn't intend to post here more than that one time, but...

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I turn the volume up and down a lot. I vary between cabin and towers a lot.

Yes I have tuned my system and know how to set gains.

My headunit has a fixed output line out, so I'm not really sure what you are asking about with the "volume number," but as stated above, I do know how to set gains and have done so correctly.

Thanks for checking.

(none of which has anything to do with the ergonomics of the two equalizers, which was the topic of my post).

Now one other deficiency with the WS420 (at least the version manufactured since 2009) that we haven't addressed is that the input sensitivity is fixed, so if you have two sources, say a nice headunit and an ipod, you can't equalize their input level, which means you have to tune your system to the more powerful source (probably the headunit), and leave the other source (probably the ipod) sounding weak. Or you have to throw more money at the problem and buy a line driver.

Both the Clarion and the ZLD have adjustable input gains which would allow a user to equalize the input signals between those sources.

Bro, I admit I deserved the sarcasm on the tune, I know you from wake world and have no doubt you can ear tune a system.... I never mentioned gains or crossovers in my post and was just worried for you on the EQ knob turning thing... I do not use my fixed output on my head unit because I want to be able to use my transom remote while swimming, nothing beats that aspect... thats why i asked about your volume control on the head unit...

ergonomics... i can turn my knobs at ease, love having a true separation between the tower and inboats not a fade, there is a difference between the two... ergonomics again, I also like the fact my sub turns down with the inboats as posted above.. who want the sub blaring in there face with no in boats? not this guy.... i guess fat fingered people would have a issue with the knobs? or someone with arthritis? I dont know but if ergonomics means more to you than the other things i posted that are facts and makes the 420 better, your rightful decision. Do you know the audio control EQ is way better than the ZLD? thought id throw that out there... I agree the price is better now that its $100, thats the price range it should be at IMO, but they are all refurbs if you read the discription for that price.. must of had some problems with them im guessing...

... The hiss isnt as bad as you guys say it is on the 420, you must of had a first gen in 08-09?? I swear to you it isnt even close to as bad as everyone says on here at all. because if it was, id want my money back, and thats not the case.... AGAIN, I dont hear the hiss except with the volume at zero.. I NEVER have my volume at zero at anytime....

I run my ipod/iphone thru the clarion head unit for full functionality and the best sound thru the bottom ;) then tuck it away from harm and water damage... I paid a pretty penny for my iphone and ipods. I have to take care of them... the 3.5 ontop isnt the best sound on those...

the mic is the kids best feature, they love that thing when i let them use it... they sing to songs, it silly to watch... also very handy to yell at idots or jetskiers following you...

basically if you want a car audio EQ, go get a ZLD or audio control, you want true tower separation including the EQ and a mic, go 420 :) all the technical jargon you guys arent hearing so im done with that explination phase. maybe just read up on the products a bit better in the future perhaps?

Dont take this post wrong Shawn, we have had some fun bantered post on WW, we are cool, just disagree on this one :)

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"see I am a hillbilly..."

True,

I consider myself an expert on .............

hillbillies because my grandparents (kinfolk) lived deeeep in the southern hills of Ohio. So I just have to wonder if you are really legit.

Do you have a collection of antique ornate wiskey bottles filled with water and various colors of food coloring as decoration on the front window sills?

Do you have at least one red bone coon dog?

Do you live over yonder?

Do you trap minnows in the crick?

How many old cars do you have on cinder blocks in the front yard?

Is your best fridge, best washin machine and best couch on display out on the front porch?

Do you keep your spare in the boot?

David

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