Design feedback

[FastFreddy]

I have been thinking about this a lot lately, so when this post came I was WOW!!! I'm visual too, but not on the computer....

Not to make the design more complicated, BUT...to make it work in my simple mind:

1) Reverse the check valve in the drain line (at top of diagram). Water can only go from pump to drain line.

2) Add a solenoid valve at the vent (at the bottom of ballast) of EACH ballast. This one operates with its "sister" solenoid valve shown at the top of the ballast. All solenoids normally shut. Both solenoids are upstream of their respective vent check valves (shown at bottom of ballast)

3) BUT, the check valve on the right ballast needs to be reversed direction from that shown. It should only allow water out of the ballast.

4) Finally, you need to add a simple vent check to each ballast (tank vent) to prevent drawing a vacumn when draining that ballast.

5) The switch operates as per my first post (left OFF right)

When filling, only one at a time, when the bag (or ballast TUBE ;-) is full, water will splash out of the drain line and when you hear that you turn off pump and place switch to OFF.

When draining, only one at a time, as the ballast drains (the other can't since solenoid valves are shut), water can't enter back into the tank even though solenoid is open due to the check valve there. As the ballast drains, the tank vent will allow air to prevent vacumn formation.

I may have wasted my time and this won't work, tell me, and if so sorry for giving yiu'all a headache, but it helped keep those squirrels happily running around in my brain as I remodel the bu..

I see where you're going. I don't think it's necessary to allow air back into the bag when draining it. When the vacuum is formed the bag will shrink and that's fine, that would be necessary when draining a tank but not a bag AFAIK.

[malibuparadise]

Absolutely right. And exactly what you want for a bag--never had one for a boat, and my wife thinks sinking one is crazy--but while in the Navy we had radiation-reducing custom water shields (i.e., ballast bags) made in the sailloft which we used for whole body protection when tearing-a-part primary valves in the sub's reactor compartment. I always had the guys make them thicker at waist height (really). Yes, and we wanted them drained as MUCH as possible (no vent!) when finished!

For my skier, as many know there is so little extra room for ballast bags... So following Levi's fantastic idea I want to use the largest PVC pipes I can fit on either side of the engine bilge stringers runing aft to forward (how to do this is still emerging out of the fogggg...ideas??....). I think adding hatches into the fiberglass deck will work out ok too. Lots of fiberglass work...maybe farm that out with the admiral's permission ;-)... I like the idea of using a deckadence hatch/deck covering when I'm that far along. Neat (but lotsa alllowance) stuff.

[malibuparadise]

I see where you're going. I don't think it's necessary to allow air back into the bag when draining it. When the vacuum is formed the bag will shrink and that's fine, that would be necessary when draining a tank but not a bag AFAIK.

If you want, PM me and I can send a lightly modified piping diagram of yours that hopefully matches my words.

Edited November 16, 2012 by malibuparadise

[malibuparadise]

I thought it be easier to wire this way. When there is no power both valves are opened. When you click the switch to fill the right tank the left valve closes and vice-versa. This way you don't need power all the time to the valves.

I thought it be easier to wire this way. When there is no power both valves are opened. When you click the switch to fill the right tank the left valve closes and vice-versa. This way you don't need power all the time to the valves.

You know, you make an interesting point, one that is out-of-the-box for me. In other words, I always think, oh, power? I'll always have and want lots of that! (submariner ingrained mentality for survival). And wiring, geez a spagetti factory of shielded cables is common for me to see. But good point, and maybe there is a way to minimize that concern by selecting the best configuration for mounting/wiring.

And, yes I hate to admit it but I have lost all power in my boats before and drained tons of batteries. Each time I say never again and further batton down the experience hatches. But, it has never been due to too much electrical loading ;-)

[Nitrousbird]

Setup #1

From what I calculated the reversible pump setup will cost slightly more, fill and drain slower (720gph) but will work very well. I will not have to manually open or close any valves since the pump is like a valve when not running.

Depending on setup vs. setup, the reversible pump can be the same or slightly less money than an aerator setup as well (also matters on sales/shopping skills). I wouldn't let the initial cost of the pump be your deciding factor.

As for flow rates, the aerators may be rated to flow more on paper. My real world experience has been they are no faster (or even slightly slower) than a Johnson reversible.

You also don't have to drain through the vent line, which would reduce cost/complexity to the system. I haven't seen the need to change my setup to drain that way.

[FastFreddy]

You know, you make an interesting point, one that is out-of-the-box for me. In other words, I always think, oh, power? I'll always have and want lots of that! (submariner ingrained mentality for survival). And wiring, geez a spagetti factory of shielded cables is common for me to see. But good point, and maybe there is a way to minimize that concern by selecting the best configuration for mounting/wiring.

And, yes I hate to admit it but I have lost all power in my boats before and drained tons of batteries. Each time I say never again and further batton down the experience hatches. But, it has never been due to too much electrical loading ;-)

I'm also thinking if the wiring or valves fails the worst is that the tanks can still be drained or filled together. The other way if they fail the bags can't be emptied or filled...

[malibuparadise]

I'm also thinking if the wiring or valves fails the worst is that the tanks can still be drained or filled together. The other way if they fail the bags can't be emptied or filled...

But, if you lose power, the pump won't work either so however full they are will stay that way, right? Both sides would not fail at the same time, although there is always Murphy's law.

Post a final diagram after all the advice? ;-)

[malibuparadise]

Check the wiring question. They way you are suggestion with putting the solenoids on one switch and the pump on the other would work.

Yes, my idea was separate switches for pump and valve, BUT still pondering everything and if there is a better way.

[malibuparadise]

All the solenoid gate valves I found only worked in one direction which means with a reversible pump you couldnt empty the bag.

I'm sure I'm missing something here. You mean they only allow flow in one direction? I was thinking open is open no matter the flow direction. More on why maybe?

[JonnyRad91]

Yes, the ones that I had looked at were about $45 and the only flowed one way meaning they couldnt work with a reversible pump. This is what I was originally looking at (it stated it down in the technical specifications under 11):

http://www.ebay.com/...d=300568152541

The other valve that someone posted did not provide clear information on if they worked in both directions. Just from my limited knowledge of working with solenoid gate valves they typically only flow in one direction. Butterfly and knife valves typically flow in both.

I have seen solenoid gate valves used with boats before (centrian and moomba) but they all incorporated one way opperation and a separate empty pump.

If someone has used solenoid gate valves with a reversible pump and has a product that would be awesome if you would post it. I havent found anything yet.

Edited November 20, 2012 by JonnyRad91

[JonnyRad91]

This is the wiring diagram I came up with how to wire my switches. I want to be able to fill and empty both bags at the same time. The 3 way switch controls the direction of the pump. The two turn the pump on and off and control the solenoids. If anyone sees a problem with my wiring let me know.

[malibuparadise]

This is the wiring diagram I came up with how to wire my switches. I want to be able to fill and empty both bags at the same time. The 3 way switch controls the direction of the pump. The two turn the pump on and off and control the solenoids. If anyone sees a problem with my wiring let me know.

I'm going to forward to a young gal elec. engineer specializing in crane controls ;-) who I just found out worked in the same shipyard as I. She drinks beer like a fish and is a hash harrier who drives a crotch rocket ;-)

[malibuparadise]

Yes, the ones that I had looked at were about $45 and the only flowed one way meaning they couldnt work with a reversible pump. This is what I was originally looking at (it stated it down in the technical specifications under 11):

http://www.ebay.com/...d=300568152541

The other valve that someone posted did not provide clear information on if they worked in both directions. Just from my limited knowledge of working with solenoid gate valves they typically only flow in one direction. Butterfly and knife valves typically flow in both.

I have seen solenoid gate valves used with boats before (centrian and moomba) but they all incorporated one way opperation and a separate empty pump.

If someone has used solenoid gate valves with a reversible pump and has a product that would be awesome if you would post it. I havent found anything yet.

Gee whiz. GOOD info. I'll go and talk with the piping guys and one young gal who is real bright. Other valve types....

[FastFreddy]

I am not sure if this would be a two way flow valve???

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2way2position-DC12V-1-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-Water-Air-N-C-Gas-Water-Air-/140725295193?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20c3e19859

[JonnyRad91]

I am not sure if this would be a two way flow valve???

No, 2 way does not mean bi-directional. If you look at the symbol the arrow only points in one direction.

[Dexter]

I would just add one more reversible pump and call it good.

I added bags in the rear compartments of my Vlx and chose to go with the same plan as the stock tanks (2 pumps, 1 vent, 1 drain per bag). The reversible pumps seem to be better pumps when compared to the aerator pumps (stock), but for me they added too much complexity to the whole system, at least from a human performance standpoint. More often than I want, I work on weekends and my better half ends up taking the boat out with the kids. They all love to surf, so my system had to be simple and foolproof. I didn't want to worry about impellers burning up or bags blowing up.

Just something to think about. If you are going to be on the boat every time, then you can make it as complex as you want. But if you are not, or you are the one having the emergency, you probably want it as simple as possible.

[MLA]

This is the wiring diagram I came up with how to wire my switches. I want to be able to fill and empty both bags at the same time. The 3 way switch controls the direction of the pump. The two turn the pump on and off and control the solenoids. If anyone sees a problem with my wiring let me know.

Have you compared the cost of having a dedicated reversible pump for each sac, as opposed to the extra switches and electric valves? Most of those electric valves are expensive versions of the $13 sprinkler valves commonly found in the plumbing section of your local box hardware store. They use spring tension and line pressure to prevent flow in the closed position. Some can flow in a reverse direction, but it it super slow and restrictive because the pump is having to draw through the valve in the drain mode for your application, rather then push through it.

[JonnyRad91]

Yeah in my case it is more a room issue than a cost issue. I actually have an extra reversible pump but to install it I need to drill another hole in the bottom of the boat and i dont have a really solid place to mount it. Between the sub, the amps, and the batteries, there isnt much room in the passenger side storage. (I am filling sacs in my asile and bow). Starting to look like this design is a pipe dream.

[FastFreddy]

Yeah in my case it is more a room issue than a cost issue. I actually have an extra reversible pump but to install it I need to drill another hole in the bottom of the boat and i dont have a really solid place to mount it. Between the sub, the amps, and the batteries, there isnt much room in the passenger side storage. (I am filling sacs in my asile and bow). Starting to look like this design is a pipe dream.

Have a look at the first post again. The setup #1 with single pump and single bag is very simple. After all this talk I think I'll end up going with three bags, three pumps and three switches. Basically three times the setup #1 of my original post.

[FastFreddy]

Though Fly high makes a simple manifold that would solve all your issues. 1 pump two bags no probblem with this thing. Problem is it's about the same price as a pump...

I'll update the drawing in a few minutes.

http://www.wakemaker...w-manifold.html

Edited November 20, 2012 by fredberg1414

[FastFreddy]

Here is the diagram. I like it this way since the bags will never overfill. When the bags are full you'll know since the extra water will come out of the vent.

[malibuparadise]

Have a look at the first post again. The setup #1 with single pump and single bag is very simple. After all this talk I think I'll end up going with three bags, three pumps and three switches. Basically three times the setup #1 of my original post.

When filling, when the bag is full what happens? The check valve in the vent line stops overflow to vent/drain line. Is that ok? i.e., you will know bag is full and simply turn off pump?

[wdr]

I am getting ready to upgrade my system from the Aerator style Pirhannas to a Johnson and was looking at the manifold WM is selling or the directional "Y" valve. For what it is designed to do and how I will use it, the Bosworth Sealect Directional Y valve ($49.95) versus the MC manifold ($119.95) looks to be the better deal and it doesn't say MasterCraft on it. But is a sexier option.

[malibuparadise]

Here is the diagram. I like it this way since the bags will never overfill. When the bags are full you'll know since the extra water will come out of the vent.

Not to quibble, but is the check valve in the drain line "shown" backwards? I always imagine a flapper type valve and see the fluid either lift the flapper or be stopped by it ( I think it's normal convention this way..) anyway FWIW

[FastFreddy]

Not to quibble, but is the check valve in the drain line "shown" backwards? I always imagine a flapper type valve and see the fluid either lift the flapper or be stopped by it ( I think it's normal convention this way..) anyway FWIW

I don't think so. I want to vent air out when filling but I do not want to allow air back into the bags when draining them. Also in this direction it is imposible for water to come back through the vent instead of going to the drain.