Jump to content

Welcome to TheMalibuCrew!

As a guest, you are welcome to poke around and view the majority of the content that we have to offer, but in order to post, search, contact members, and get full use out of the website you will need to Register for an Account. It's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the TheMalibuCrew Family today!

Design feedback


FastFreddy

Recommended Posts

Here are two design ideas for a ballast system.

Setup #1 uses ONE reversible pony pump.

Setup1.jpg

Setup #2 uses TWO aerator pumps.

Setup2.jpg

Just wondering if there is a problem with either setup.

Setup #1

From what I calculated the reversible pump setup will cost slightly more, fill and drain slower (720gph) but will work very well. I will not have to manually open or close any valves since the pump is like a valve when not running.

Setup #2

I am worried that setup #2 will not drain properly unless I close the manual fill valve, I think the fill line will keep filling the bag as I drain it since the pump is a flow-thorugh. This setup saves a bit of money, fills and drains faster

(1200gph) but I’ll have to constantly open and close the valve and I have to setup two pumps instead of one.

Is this an accurate assumption?

Any better ideas?

Edited by fredberg1414
Link to comment

You can get an electric gate valve so you don't have to "manually" open and close it. Just wire the gate valve to a switch next to the rest of your ballast switches.

You're gonna get a lot of ppl saying reversible is the only way to go but its all in the plumbing and the running of your hoses. The aerators can and will get ur bags completely dry if its plumbed correctly.

Link to comment
Couldn't you just put a one way flapper valve in after the fill for option # 1? Rather than having a manual or electric gate?

I agree...unless you foresee a problem with it filling itself while driving. A buddy of mine had that problem, auto filling and auto draining so he added the electric gate valve

Link to comment

I would pass on an electric RV gate valve, they do not last but a couple of seasons. If done correctly, no gate is needed in an aerator system. Both schematics are accurate. Either system should work fine as long as the pump placement and orientation is correct, (for the aerators) to avoid any air lock or priming issues.

Link to comment

Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

I was planning on using some kind of valves to fill the rear sacs. I like the idea of the RV gate valves. Though I'd have to modify for Normally closed valves.

I think I like the reversible pump for the idea of less plumbing and wiring. I also don't want to wait 30 minutes while the bags fill??? I wish they made a larger pony pump.

Rear.jpg

Link to comment

I like the 3rd u just posted. Only thing i might say is you might want to think about check valves on the vent lines in between each bag and the 3 way just so if youre filling one side but not the other it will actually vent out of ur thru hull and not vent into the other bag...?

Also, I beg to differ on the comment about the electric gates only lasting 2 seasons. We've had it 4 seasons now, just secure it well and wire correctly and it will last.

Link to comment

I like the 3rd u just posted. Only thing i might say is you might want to think about check valves on the vent lines in between each bag and the 3 way just so if youre filling one side but not the other it will actually vent out of ur thru hull and not vent into the other bag...?

Also, I beg to differ on the comment about the electric gates only lasting 2 seasons. We've had it 4 seasons now, just secure it well and wire correctly and it will last.

You're right good call.

Revised3.jpg

Link to comment

Campingworld.com

Or just google:

Electric waste valve or electric knife valve.

They can be in the range of $100-$200 tho so if youre looking for cost effective might want to go with manual somewhere in the range ot $10-$20

Link to comment

I like the 3rd u just posted. Only thing i might say is you might want to think about check valves on the vent lines in between each bag and the 3 way just so if youre filling one side but not the other it will actually vent out of ur thru hull and not vent into the other bag...?

Also, I beg to differ on the comment about the electric gates only lasting 2 seasons. We've had it 4 seasons now, just secure it well and wire correctly and it will last.

Im glad to here yours has lasted. I was just offering a suggestion based on my experience. I have replaced a few and know of quite a few others who have had electric gate valves go bad. The average was about 2 season, depending on the amount of use. Again, just offering a suggestion, as the systems can easily be done with out them.

I would also recommend dedicated pumps for each sac. Systems using a common pump to fill and or drain multiple sacs tend to get complicated once the actual install begins, and tend to be somewhat problematic once completed. At the end of the day, not a lot a money was saved and in some cases, it ends up getting spent later and the time put into redoing it.

If you are doing a reversible impeller pump, a gate is absolutely not needed. If doing aerators, the system can be designed and laid out without the use of a gate.

Link to comment

It isn't my system. It's a buddy's that he used a gate valve on a manifold type system that he has i believe 5 pumps coming off of one thruhull. I agree that they can go bad but all within moderation...i too am just basing my opinion off of experience

Link to comment

I would also recommend dedicated pumps for each sac. Systems using a common pump to fill and or drain multiple sacs tend to get complicated once the actual install begins, and tend to be somewhat problematic once completed. At the end of the day, not a lot a money was saved and in some cases, it ends up getting spent later and the time put into redoing it.

If you are doing a reversible impeller pump, a gate is absolutely not needed. If doing aerators, the system can be designed and laid out without the use of a gate.

Dedicated pumps might be something I do go with, thanks for the input.

AFAIK with the aeretors and no gate then one must go above the water line with the fill hose to prevent passive filling otherwise it will fill automatically, also siphoning is possible as well. I'm not that comfortable with that. I can get some 1" plastic ball valves for about $6 each. Cheap insuranc in my mind.

Link to comment

You're right good call.

Revised3.jpg

Is the check valve in the drain line shown backwards? Many times I see little `arrows above them showing flow direction just to make sure it's understood.

Link to comment

Just thinking...for the solenoid valves, if they were instead normally closed, i.e., on loss of power they fail closed, would this be better?

In this case, when the 3-way switch is selcted to the right ballast, the right valve energizes and opens, while the other one stays shut. And visa versa for the left ballast bag.

When the switch is off, no power to either valve and they are both closed. Of course, the pump should only be started after either solenoid energized. maybe add an interlock for that...lol...

Maybe I'm missing something though...

Link to comment

I was thinking about doing something very similar to this, was actually researching it the other day. I have a reversible pump with a two bag setup. I currently have a manual Y valve to direct the flow in the direction. I want to replace the the manual opperation with solenoid gate valves.

All the solenoid gate valves I found only worked in one direction which means with a reversible pump you couldnt empty the bag.

I am not two sure wiring this is possilbe with a single reversible pump. Working on this...

Link to comment

Dedicated pumps might be something I do go with, thanks for the input.

AFAIK with the aerators and no gate then one must go above the water line with the fill hose to prevent passive filling otherwise it will fill automatically, also siphoning is possible as well. I'm not that comfortable with that. I can get some 1" plastic ball valves for about $6 each. Cheap insuranc in my mind.

Your thinking is exactly correct. In order to prevent passive filling and draining on the fill line, the fill line needs to be routed to it, for the most part, is above the level of the filled sac or tank. In most cases, using a thru-hull mushroom instead of a scoop, and hose routing will eliminate passive filling. The use of a check-valve will eliminate any passive draining, but adds to the cost of the system. On some older boats with a shallow free-board, its not as easy to get the hose routed high enough to prevent the passive draining. If the boat has a shallow bilge and free-board, its almost always better to go with impeller pumps. They are self priming and act as their own check-valve for both passive filling and draining.

Link to comment

I have been thinking about this a lot lately, so when this post came I was WOW!!! I'm visual too, but not on the computer....

Not to make the design more complicated, BUT...to make it work in my simple mind:

1) Reverse the check valve in the drain line (at top of diagram). Water can only go from pump to drain line.

2) Add a solenoid valve at the vent (at the bottom of ballast) of EACH ballast. This one operates with its "sister" solenoid valve shown at the top of the ballast. All solenoids normally shut. Both solenoids are upstream of their respective vent check valves (shown at bottom of ballast)

3) BUT, the check valve on the right ballast needs to be reversed direction from that shown. It should only allow water out of the ballast.

4) Finally, you need to add a simple vent check to each ballast (tank vent) to prevent drawing a vacumn when draining that ballast.

5) The switch operates as per my first post (left OFF right)

When filling, only one at a time, when the bag (or ballast TUBE ;-) is full, water will splash out of the drain line and when you hear that you turn off pump and place switch to OFF.

When draining, only one at a time, as the ballast drains (the other can't since solenoid valves are shut), water can't enter back into the tank even though solenoid is open due to the check valve there. As the ballast drains, the tank vent will allow air to prevent vacumn formation.

I may have wasted my time and this won't work, tell me, and if so sorry for giving yiu'all a headache, but it helped keep those squirrels happily running around in my brain as I remodel the bu..

Link to comment

Just thinking...for the solenoid valves, if they were instead normally closed, i.e., on loss of power they fail closed, would this be better?

In this case, when the 3-way switch is selcted to the right ballast, the right valve energizes and opens, while the other one stays shut. And visa versa for the left ballast bag.

When the switch is off, no power to either valve and they are both closed. Of course, the pump should only be started after either solenoid energized. maybe add an interlock for that...lol...

Maybe I'm missing something though...

I thought it be easier to wire this way. When there is no power both valves are opened. When you click the switch to fill the right tank the left valve closes and vice-versa. This way you don't need power all the time to the valves.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...