Fueling at the dock - What's wrong with my system?

[[email protected]]

brain fart...85 is appears to be right...even I fu every once in awhile..62.4/144=.43psi

not sure where I pulled the 0.62 outta...but the rest is good..after 30 years, the best of us forget sh++t.

and 62.4 is always used as the baseline, and when calculating liguids with a different specific gravity (water is 1.0) , that fluid's SG is simply included to the equation/algoritum to adjust for that particular liquid or for air for that matter....Water is always the std. and yes gasoline is lighter, depending on temp. due to gas being so volitile.

Edited November 15, 2012 by [email protected]

[[email protected]]

There are numerous safety problems...several in fact... though all of us who have boats on lifts or docked, fill them with gas they bought at the gas station using jerry cans...whether they be metal or plastic. I fill my boat up using 2 poly cans, cause I refuse to pay more than I have to.... and cause it is too damn expensive as it is.. and the gas on our lake is about $2/gal more.

Some mentioned using PVC pipe..that would be better to hard plumb down to the dock ( you would see some gain in dynamic pressure, specially if you went with a larger diameter pipe, such as 1" or 1 1/2") vs a hose not made for gas...although pvc will deterioate over time when exposed to sunlight and gas.

When you double the pipe diameter, you will get 4 X more flow...PI are squared not round!!

anytime you handle gas,even at the gas station, extreme care needs to be followed...there is a reason truck drivers hauling gas get paid soo much...cause they ae dragging along behind them a 5000 gallon bomb.

And no one has brought it up, but if the sheriff catches you filling up your boat, you are going to have to do some explaining and may be a ticketable offense on your lake. I now on our lake it is...Since 85 is the self proclaimed expert, maybe he can offer his expert opinoin??

ANd the nozzle can't distinquish from pressure from the gas or from the air...pressure is pressure....the only difference is that air is compressable, and liquids aren't\don't.

Edited November 14, 2012 by [email protected]

[MadDogMike]

You can find fueling hoses and fittings here.

http://www.mcmaster....um-hose/=k5v99z

......That's a lot of cash for some hose.

Thanks for the link...man, you're not kidding! Found another resource here, but no pricing. May contact them for advice.

Have you looked into using pipe rather then hose? The down hill run looks fairly consistent. Trench it shallow just under the ground/ground cover next to the steps. Might be cheaper then hose suitable for gasoline.

I thought of that, but the hose option seems a whole lot easier, especially for troubleshooting should any troubles arise. I'm also not sure about the legality of running gasoline through a buried pipe. With the hose, it's basically no different than using a standard gas caddy, other than the length of the hose.

That's a beautiful setup, what lake are you on?

Thanks! It's Jackson Lake, best kept secret in the metro Atlanta area!

I would recommend at least using hose rated for gasoline use. While the hose you are using now may be heavy duty, there is no guarantee that it won't deteriorate from fuel exposure, especially since most fuels have ethanol in them now. Any chemicals/byproducts that are dissolved out of the hose are now being fed into your engine and could lead to clogged injectors in the future if they turn to sludge sitting on the bottom of your tank.

Yeah, I have the same concern.

There are numerous safety problems...several in fact...

Whoa, numerous and several?! Do tell!

Some mentioned using PVC pipe..that would be better to hard plumb down to the dock ( you would see some gain in dynamic pressure, specially if you went with a larger diameter pipe, such as 1" or 1 1/2") vs a hose not made for gas...although pvc will deterioate over time when exposed to sunlight and gas.

Somebody mentioned pipe, nobody mentioned PVC. And the person who mentioned pipe mentioned burying it, so sunlight exposure would not be an issue.

And no one has brought it up, but if the sheriff catches you filling up your boat, you are going to have to do some explaining and may be a ticketable offense on your lake.

Would it not be ticketable if using a 5-gallon can? How about a 14-gallon gas caddy with a 6' hose? How about two 14-gallon gas caddies with a 200' hose? Difference?

ANd the nozzle can't distinquish from pressure from the gas or from the air...pressure is pressure....the only difference is that air is compressable, and liquids aren't\don't.

Hmm, I thought air is considered incompressible, unless you're approaching supersonic speeds.

[JonnyRad91]

Man you guys are going straight bernoulli's on eachother. .

[85 Barefoot]

And no one has brought it up, but if the sheriff catches you filling up your boat, you are going to have to do some explaining and may be a ticketable offense on your lake. I now on our lake it is...Since 85 is the self proclaimed expert, maybe he can offer his expert opinoin??

We both know I have never said I'm an expert at anything other than my own opinion, which is a true statement. Your "get your masters degree in engineering then we'll talk" PM is particularly humorous in light of the fact a layman like myself just debunked your computations when you already took off on Joe. Send me another PM about letting go of the bone or frisbee or something like that. They're hilarious!

But my answer as to filling a boat on OP's lake being a ticketable offense, my answer is I have no clue. It's not on mine.

[[email protected]]

you are 1 debunking little expert there...I guess you get both an atta boy and a gold star for that one.

I would never call any one who is an expert in as many fields are you...a laymen...I have many others, but never a layman..

and still waiting for you to get that/those degree(s)....

And I NEVER argue with idiots.

Edited November 15, 2012 by [email protected]

[85 Barefoot]

Come on 39, stop clogging up the forum with your compliments! Use the PM. Much better opportunity for you to berate and call names. "My cup runneth over with CRAP" was my favorite. See if you can do better today.

[MLA]

Your hose is too small and thats why it doesnt work

Speak for your self

[MadDogMike]

A larger pipe will reduce your velocity and substantially lower your friction head.

There's a joke in there somewhere, but I'll leave it alone. You're probably right, as I heard back from the seller of the red nozzle that it requires a minimum 15psi. The galvanized nozzle is the one I used previously with just the caddy at the dock, so evidently it doesn't have a minimum PSI. I think it just happened to go bad, as the valve was kinda sticky. All the more reason to just use a ball valve instead.

I also emailed Good Year about their petroleum transfer hoses to get their advise. I'll report back if/when I hear back from them.

[wakeboarder3780]

Not to hijack (perhaps mini hijack) but i just want to make sure I understand the static concern here. I understand that any time when filling it's important to discharge your own personal static electricity before getting near the business end of a gas line. That being said what am I missing?

it sounds like people are saying that as gas rushes through this rubber line, it has the possibility of charging electrically and causing an ignition concern. I don't understand how / why? I will be implementing something like this in the future so would like to make sure I understand the issue.

It seems like the resolution was put grounding stakes in the frame that the tanks sit on?

[[email protected]]

There's a joke in there somewhere, but I'll leave it alone. You're probably right, as I heard back from the seller of the red nozzle that it requires a minimum 15psi. The galvanized nozzle is the one I used previously with just the caddy at the dock, so evidently it doesn't have a minimum PSI. I think it just happened to go bad, as the valve was kinda sticky. All the more reason to just use a ball valve instead.

I also emailed Good Year about their petroleum transfer hoses to get their advise. I'll report back if/when I hear back from them.

Actually the larger pipe will INCREASE fluid velocity and lower/reduce frictional forces...

[ktrent]

the reason the fuel nozzles will not work is due to not having enough pressure to open the valve. the manual nozzle on the left should work but the auto nozzle on the right will only work if you take the internal shut offs out. if it were me i would put a ball valve and a few feet of clear gas hose on it so that u can place some hose down in your boat so you don't have to hold it the whole time. i have a few gravity fed tanks at work for different fluids and we use ball valves on all of them. may not look as cool but it will actually be easier to handle. plus with no metal contacting the boat you reduce the risk of spark.

the water hose will never hold up long and will get hard as a brick in a few months and could start to come apart on the inside. water hose is usually made up of more than one type of rubber that could separate. if you use water hose replace often. best bet would be to find some hose that would hold up to fuel but not fuel certified (that would be too $$$$) do some research or maybe just try different ones till you find one that holds up.

a filter would be a good idea but your going to have to use a screen filter. a regular fuel filter will slow the flow to nothing.

great ideal, sure it may be a little risky and some guys will say no but i think at the end of the day you will be fine.

[MadDogMike]

Not to hijack (perhaps mini hijack) but i just want to make sure I understand the static concern here. I understand that any time when filling it's important to discharge your own personal static electricity before getting near the business end of a gas line. That being said what am I missing?

it sounds like people are saying that as gas rushes through this rubber line, it has the possibility of charging electrically and causing an ignition concern. I don't understand how / why? I will be implementing something like this in the future so would like to make sure I understand the issue.

It seems like the resolution was put grounding stakes in the frame that the tanks sit on?

It's a good question, and I still wonder if it's really needed. When I google around, I see that grounded fuel hoses are said to be for use with electric fuel pumps, whereas ungrounded hoses are said to be used for gravity-flow applications. I'll let the physicists here calculate the static electricity generated by this gravity-flow operation and tell us whether it's really needed.

My solution was going to be to attach a ground wire to each metal connection point and run it to a grounding rod. Fairly cheap & easy solution for peace-of-mind, even if it's not fully necessary.

[MadDogMike]

the reason the fuel nozzles will not work is due to not having enough pressure to open the valve. the manual nozzle on the left should work but the auto nozzle on the right will only work if you take the internal shut offs out. if it were me i would put a ball valve and a few feet of clear gas hose on it so that u can place some hose down in your boat so you don't have to hold it the whole time. i have a few gravity fed tanks at work for different fluids and we use ball valves on all of them. may not look as cool but it will actually be easier to handle.

Agreed, and that's my plan at this point.

the water hose will never hold up long and will get hard as a brick in a few months and could start to come apart on the inside. water hose is usually made up of more than one type of rubber that could separate. if you use water hose replace often. best bet would be to find some hose that would hold up to fuel but not fuel certified (that would be too $$$$) do some research or maybe just try different ones till you find one that holds up.

Yeah, I'm waiting to hear back from Good Year on their fuel transfer hoses, but I'm thinking that a hose like this might work.

a filter would be a good idea but your going to have to use a screen filter. a regular fuel filter will slow the flow to nothing.

Yeah, I put a screen filter in at the ball valve.

great ideal, sure it may be a little risky and some guys will say no but i think at the end of the day you will be fine.

Thanks, I would think so.

[MalibuTime]

......

And no one has brought it up, but if the sheriff catches you filling up your boat, you are going to have to do some explaining and may be a ticketable offense on your lake. I now on our lake it is...Since 85 is the self proclaimed expert, maybe he can offer his expert opinoin??

....

Get another caddy and run the supply hose into it at the dock, so it looks like you are filling the boat from the caddy on your dock. Then, anyone looking will see what they want to see.

[MLA]

Not to hijack (perhaps mini hijack) but i just want to make sure I understand the static concern here. I understand that any time when filling it's important to discharge your own personal static electricity before getting near the business end of a gas line. That being said what am I missing?

it sounds like people are saying that as gas rushes through this rubber line, it has the possibility of charging electrically and causing an ignition concern. I don't understand how / why? I will be implementing something like this in the future so would like to make sure I understand the issue.

It seems like the resolution was put grounding stakes in the frame that the tanks sit on?

yes, rushing fuel through a rubber hose can create static electricity. If enough builds up, it can arc from the nozzle to the fuel filler neck. Thus arc can result in a fire. Its always been a recommendation to allow the metal nozzle to rest on the metal filler neck. This grounds the nozzles, thus eliminating the chance for an arc.

Now, in a car or truck, the entire metal body is one giant ground plane. In a boat, the metal filler neck is suspended in a gel-coat and fiber glass body as a boat doesn't have the same ground plane. So what they do is attach a grounding wire/strap from the filler neck to the engine ground. This serves the same purpose as the engine is grounded to the battery, thus completing the circuit. If you climb in your v-drive locker and look up at the back side of the filler neck, you will probably find a green wire attached to it.

For this particular, thread, I would suggest having a metal outlet of some kind, that can rest on the filler neck. Or at least some sort of method to ground the hose assembly, bit it will have to be via a metal component that is near the end and contacting the fuel, because the rubber is not conductive.

[water hazard]

It looks like you have a Northern Tool, fuel nozzel. Accorinding to thier site: "This automatic shutoff fuel nozzle requires a pressurized fuel pump. It's not compatible with gravity feed tanks."

[Steve B.]

The more I think about it, that thing should be shooting gas out.

It's essentially the same thing when I syphoned gas out of...ahem. Anyway, that's all we did is get the hose end lower than the tank and suck.

Pull the air out of that line, leave open, and gas will flow.

? yes, no?

Steve B.

[Ndawg12]

Maybe I missed it, but are the tanks vented? What kind of flow will come out of just the ball valve?

[MadDogMike]

It looks like you have a Northern Tool, fuel nozzel. Accorinding to thier site: "This automatic shutoff fuel nozzle requires a pressurized fuel pump. It's not compatible with gravity feed tanks."

Not a Northern Tool nozzle, but anyway, we've already covered that it probably needs more PSI than I'm generating. The galvanized nozzle should work, but I think it's defective.

The more I think about it, that thing should be shooting gas out.

It's essentially the same thing when I syphoned gas out of...ahem. Anyway, that's all we did is get the hose end lower than the tank and suck.

Pull the air out of that line, leave open, and gas will flow.

? yes, no?

Steve B.

Gas does shoot out, as long as I'm not using one of those nozzles.

Maybe I missed it, but are the tanks vented? What kind of flow will come out of just the ball valve?

Tanks vented by removing the caps, as shown in the first pic. Tons of flow comes out of just the ball valve.

I think the lesson of the thread is, "don't use the flippin' nozzles!"

[Pistol Pete]

2 questions MDM.

If the style garden hose "y" connector you're using is this one (which I think it is by squinting my eyes really hard at your pic.), then those things have a really tiny inside diameter at the valve. That would restrict flow big time.

Second, how do you fill up those gas caddys? Do you tie them down on that cargo carrier on your car and drive them to and from the gas station like in the pic?

[MadDogMike]

2 questions MDM.

If the style garden hose "y" connector you're using is this one (which I think it is by squinting my eyes really hard at your pic.), then those things have a really tiny inside diameter at the valve. That would restrict flow big time.

Can't say it's that exact one, but similar. The opening is small, but no smaller than that on the caddy itself, or the ball valve at the bottom. And I have plenty of flow, as long as I'm not using those fuel nozzles. (Am I beating a dead horse here or what?)

Second, how do you fill up those gas caddys? Do you tie them down on that cargo carrier on your car and drive them to and from the gas station like in the pic?

Yep, lie them down horizontal and tie them down. I suppose you're going to tell me this is a hazard, and I really don't care.

[[email protected]]

The more I think about it, that thing should be shooting gas out.

It's essentially the same thing when I syphoned gas out of...ahem. Anyway, that's all we did is get the hose end lower than the tank and suck.

Pull the air out of that line, leave open, and gas will flow.

? yes, no?

Steve B.

How do you pull the air outta the line? And how do you gte the taste of unleaded outta your mouth??

Mike won't care til someone rear ends him...then it is GBZ (go boom zone)!

Edited November 15, 2012 by [email protected]

[MadDogMike]

Mike won't care til someone rear ends him...then it is GBZ (go boom zone)!

I'm sure 5-gallon cans sliding around in the back of your pickup is perfectly safe.

Edited November 15, 2012 by MadDogMike

[[email protected]]

I'm sure 5-gallon cans sliding around in the back of your pickup is perfectly safe.

First, you have no idea how I secure my 5 gallon jugs...and I don't have a pick up..

and you're the one asking whats wrong with my system..If you don't want suggestions and don't care, why did you even post the question?...seems as if you've already made up your mind, and was just looking for like minded sheeple to agree with you. I am sure you can find plenty of sheeple to agree at your local soak and suds.

Edited November 15, 2012 by [email protected]