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Erosion Concerns


Asmodeus2112

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Now don't get me wrong... I, and everyone else, understand there is no excuse for surfing 40' off the shoreline on a large lake OR blasting profane music near shore OR being a drunk ahole on the water, etc, etc, etc . Nobody here likes or sympathizes with these folks.....trust me. That's not what we're talking about here though:

Just my 2 cents.

Bill & Wakbrdr - See above.

I agree with your statement, BS. I'm just pointing out that it's possible that homeowners associate wake boats with loud music & whatever other rude, obnoxious behavior going on in front of their homes. And that the erosion argument is essentially just a tool to target these same people, and possibly get them to go some place else.

Whether or not any of that is true.... well, you'd have to get the homeowners to admit it. If everyone rode/drove their boats responsibly & with a tiny bit of courtesy towards others around them, then I doubt we'd be discussing any of this. The Willamette river area south of Portland is pretty narrow, so it's tough to ride "out in the middle" without still being 200' away from other people's yards.

Around here we are not allowed to build ANYTHING within 50' of the water, period. No sea walls, no modifying the shoreline, even removing weeds is something we're required to get a permit for. And all docks are floaters because we need to remove them or the ice will destroy them. So while we haven't had any wake device rules come up yet, I won't be surprised to see it happen either. Frankly I don't see it happening either as the county doesn't have the money for any enforcement as it is, must less after a law like that comes around.

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Dude, perspective is our boats do more damage than others simply for the reason they are designed for the purpose of large wakes. However, whether they do damage or not, the inconsiderate people operating these boats are the issue. Let's be realistic, they guy in slammed vlx with the music volume topped out so his rider can hear the music is going to draw more attention and negativity than the dude cruising in the bayliner. This is the fight the home owners can argue. No they won't put in a noise ordinance, no they won't ban boats, put of they can claim their property is getting damaged, that's a fight they can win.

Homeowners, especially if they have money, can influence. Similar to how orange county airport out here in so cal operates. The flight path is over some very rich neighborhoods, so they have actually modified the how the planes take off. It's like a race for the sky, because they don't want the noise in the "rich areas", the angle at which they must climb is much steeper than at LAX. And the airport shuts down at 10pm, so there is no airport noise at night. I don't think the people in LA that live near airport could ever get that to happen, they just don't have the pull.

I'm guilty of some o the things people hate loud music, big wake, etc. all of us are, but you need to know when to be considerate as well.

Point is, it doesn't matter who was there first, all that matters is who is there now. Respect the people around there now, because they will affect how you are able to use the limited resources that we enjoy

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It's simple. It's not about erosion, it's about exclusion.

The lake that we frequent is a very popular bass lake. I don't like the speed those boats travel (like 60) so I think BS's idea is great. 25 mph speed limit sounds good. I'm being facetious but if I had a few home owners with enough money I am willing to bet I could make it fly.

Let me reiterate my earlier statement that people have glossed over here. Our dock was built in 1985. That makes it 27 years old. We have done some basic repairs nothing major. We are in a somewhat medium to high traffic area where a lot of boats insist on cutting the corner into the cove. Sooooo many big boats come plowing by day to day. Point is is there any REAL damage being done these people's docks or are they overstating the problem because they want to exclude a certain group of people? Or maybe our dock built by my father in law is THAT much more well built (doubt it)

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an old man's perspective

surf wakes cause more damage than wakeboarding , or waterskiing .

surfing is more popular because the obervers are participating with the surfer .

surfing can be done in the rougher afternoon water when it is warmer .

the learning curve to surf well is quicker than wakeboarding or skiing a slalom course

i tell folks frequently that a wakeboard boat is a much more fun boat than just a cruiser .

water skiing seriously is a more lonely activity which requires LESS boat traffic and early morning ( colder ) or late evening to have the best conditions. No wake is the goal .

I enjoy cruising the 17 mile stretch of the Willamette River ( 153 miles away )

it is a beautiful stretch of river and lends itself to water skiing because it lends itself naturally to wave dissipation

waterski boats at 30 mph cause very small wakes.

a wakeboard boat by definition is creating a more damaging wave.

if the wakeboard / surf community does not police themselves they will lose their PRIVILEGE to wakeboard / surf while creating 3 foot high waves.

It seems obvious , the best defense is to surf in bigger water and be careful of wake damage .

If you want to keep the focus on losing the Privilege you can further make sure that happens by turning up your Boomer Box to level 11 .

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Lets talk about a bigger issue here then property damage. Safety. We are a society that puts personal safety at the forefront correct?

Whats it like when your surfing at 10.5 mph and a ski boat/ Bass Boat/ wally trolly ballasted tube pulling master craft is coming up on you getting closer and closer until the last minute when they finally change course? Freaky....just plain freaky. Now should we:

1. Make all waterways 25 mph speed limits thus excluding skiing and any water sport that requires speeds over 25.

or

2. Actually enforce the current regulations and this includes noise.

You know I had a home owner flag me down and drive over to talk to us about our wake while surfing this summer. I was surfing, my wife was driving and I wasn't paying attention to exactly where we were. He didn't like how close we came to his dock. I apologized, said it won't happen again. And guess what? It didn't. We avoided that area of the lake all together. So then should I not be allowed to surf?

Enforce the laws, boat responsibility and this is a non issue.

Edited by Ruffdog
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an old man's perspective

surf wakes cause more damage than wakeboarding , or waterskiing .

surfing is more popular because the obervers are participating with the surfer .

surfing can be done in the rougher afternoon water when it is warmer .

the learning curve to surf well is quicker than wakeboarding or skiing a slalom course

i tell folks frequently that a wakeboard boat is a much more fun boat than just a cruiser .

water skiing seriously is a more lonely activity which requires LESS boat traffic and early morning ( colder ) or late evening to have the best conditions. No wake is the goal .

I enjoy cruising the 17 mile stretch of the Willamette River ( 153 miles away )

it is a beautiful stretch of river and lends itself to water skiing because it lends itself naturally to wave dissipation

waterski boats at 30 mph cause very small wakes.

a wakeboard boat by definition is creating a more damaging wave.

if the wakeboard / surf community does not police themselves they will lose their PRIVILEGE to wakeboard / surf while creating 3 foot high waves.

It seems obvious , the best defense is to surf in bigger water and be careful of wake damage .

If you want to keep the focus on losing the Privilege you can further make sure that happens by turning up your Boomer Box to level 11 .

Its not about the size of the wake. Cabin cruisers/ Yachts have been around for many, many years. Its not about erosion. Cabin cruisers/ yachts would be outlawed right along side of wake enhancing devices. It is, simply put, about exclusion.

You can talk about my surf wave all you want to but you will never convince me that my wave is more damaging than 20 boats pulling tubers. Again I know I am safe in estimating that number.

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an old man's perspective

surf wakes cause more damage than wakeboarding , or waterskiing .

Do surf wakes cause more damage than MOTHER FREEKING NATURE?

That's right... Mother Nature makes the Willametter River change levels over and over again all year long (see chart below). Each time different parts of the shore become exposed, then covered up again, then exposed again. You don't think that causes erosion? We're talking about almost 40' for increase/decrease in water level over course of one year. How big is a surf wake by the time it gets to shore...? 12-18 inches, maybe. How long is our season where the river is primarly used...? Barely two months (July & Aug). How many days a week is crowded during those two months...? Two. But that Mother Nature is a b****! She never quits surfing her 40' wakes. Like interest, she never sleeps!

And another thing... if the water level is changing so much, what shore are we even talking about? Today's shore will be underwater by 20' next month. And the shoreline in January will be 35' above the water level next summer. I'ts not like we have white sand beaches on the Willamette. Sheesh! See the pic below... the shore is mostly lined with plants that live above and below water.

Until somebody can explain to me how a motor boat wake is worse for the shore than Mother Nature, I will continue to believe that the "no wake device" law on the Willamette River is about elitest home owners who want the river to themselves (cuz they mostly have wakeboats too). Now, if I could just afford riverfront property I could live where I ride and join my new neighbors in their efforts to clean up the riff raff. :rofl:

WillametteRiverlevels365.jpg

photo-2.jpg

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i am not the enemy , fellas

i love that 17 mile stretch of the willamette

i first skied it in 1962.

i grew up in Parkrose on the mighty Columbia and the upper Willamette was worth the extra drive.

i used that stretch frequently to ski until we moved to Bend in 1977 .

i still tow my boat up there every other year .

might be i am trying to relive the 60's .

my intention was to present a perspective shared by 92.52 % of the public who do not own wakeboard boats

please re-read my initial post.

the large surf wake does more damage than the same boat does when that boat does not have ballast and is on plane at speed.

in order to not lose surfing privileges , boaters are going to need to surf away from the tighter populated waterways.

you do not have to worry about water skier wakes . we are a dying generation .

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:plus1:

People tend to lose perspective, this post helps put it back.

Do surf wakes cause more damage than MOTHER FREEKING NATURE?

That's right... Mother Nature makes the Willametter River change levels over and over again all year long (see chart below). Each time different parts of the shore become exposed, then covered up again, then exposed again. You don't think that causes erosion? We're talking about almost 40' for increase/decrease in water level over course of one year. How big is a surf wake by the time it gets to shore...? 12-18 inches, maybe. How long is our season where the river is primarly used...? Barely two months (July & Aug). How many days a week is crowded during those two months...? Two. But that Mother Nature is a b****! She never quits surfing her 40' wakes. Like interest, she never sleeps!

And another thing... if the water level is changing so much, what shore are we even talking about? Today's shore will be underwater by 20' next month. And the shoreline in January will be 35' above the water level next summer. I'ts not like we have white sand beaches on the Willamette. Sheesh! See the pic below... the shore is mostly lined with plants that live above and below water.

Until somebody can explain to me how a motor boat wake is worse for the shore than Mother Nature, I will continue to believe that the "no wake device" law on the Willamette River is about elitest home owners who want the river to themselves (cuz they mostly have wakeboats too). Now, if I could just afford riverfront property I could live where I ride and join my new neighbors in their efforts to clean up the riff raff. :rofl:

WillametteRiverlevels365.jpg

photo-2.jpg

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I know you well enough to know your not the enemy dontw8. Our point is that we shouldn't have to avoid those areas if the REAL problem is addressed. Like previous posters have said erosion should not be a concern. Dock damage is minimal and overstated. The real problem comes from people that want the water to themselves.

And like I've said many times if wake damage is the issue why isn't there a size restriction on that stretch of water? Why can I drive my 30' cabin cruiser through there if I wanted?

Edited by Ruffdog
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Riddle me this...

How come this boat (all 150 feet of it) can plow up the Willamette, passing homes and "delicate" shorelines in the Milwaukie and Lake Oswego area, but I can't load 1,250 lbs. in my 21' boat just 10 miles up river?

I wonder which boat makes a bigger wake? Perhaps the shoreline 10 miles down river is less sensitive... :salute:

ps_01.jpg

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Are you sure it's surfing????? Where our cabin is the tubers outnumber surfers 20-1. Easily. REALLY I'm not exaggerating when I say all of the damage to our dock comes from tubers/ cruisers. Now if you come back and tell me that surfers outnumber tubers/ cruisers on your lake?....... I think you had better just think about that a bit and be honest with yourself.

Oh ya and our property is just like your neighbors. We are at the mouth of the cove so we take the brunt of every cruiser that plows by cutting the corner. I could hang out on the dock all day and never see a surfer. And further our dock was built in the 80s and still is holding fine in spite of all this traffic. i believe the damage in almost all cases is over exaggerated.

I agree 100 percent that most wakes that come by our docks are from tubers. Frankly, I expect that. I have no problem with normal boat wakes from skiers, fishermen, pontoons, bowriders, etc. It would be unreasonable for me to expect that there wouldn't be any wakes at all. In fact, it would be pretty boring without seeing other boats and people skiing, boarding, barefooting, etc. My issue is with the extremely weighted down boats that put out tremendous wakes close to my dock that does damage to my property and is a safety concern for my family. I am less concerned about erosion as it is a much smaller problem for me that potential dock damage. I will repeat...You are responsible for your wake and the damage it causes to other people's boat or property.
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It's disappointing to see the short sightedness of the slalom guys pointing the finger at wakeboat owners. Slalom boats cause more erosion and noise than a fisherman in a john boat cruising along at 2 knots, so are you ok if they ban you guys for excess erosion/noise too? Of course not.

I agree 100 percent that most wakes that come by our docks are from tubers. Frankly, I expect that. I have no problem with normal boat wakes from skiers, fishermen, pontoons, bowriders, etc. It would be unreasonable for me to expect that there wouldn't be any wakes at all. In fact, it would be pretty boring without seeing other boats and people skiing, boarding, barefooting, etc. My issue is with the extremely weighted down boats that put out tremendous wakes close to my dock that does damage to my property and is a safety concern for my family. I am less concerned about erosion as it is a much smaller problem for me that potential dock damage. I will repeat...You are responsible for your wake and the damage it causes to other people's boat or property.

Safety of your family from a wake hitting a dock? You have got to be kidding. How about you post a link to anybody who has ever been seriously injured or killed by a wakeboard wake while sitting on a dock. I won't hold my breath.

You know what's a safety concern for me and my family? Any boat traveling over 25mph. If you are a slalom or barefoot guy, this means you. Because guess what, boats going too fast hit people in the water and kill them (like a downed wakeboarder). You can find a dozen articles of people in the water being killed by boats traveling too fast. If you’re so concerned with safety how come you aren’t all for imposing speed limits? Because it bans your watersport of preference of course.

So if the watersports community really wants to cannibalize itself in the name of "safety", then count me as one vote for the 25mph speed limits too. In reality I don’t think we should ban a thing, and should instead work together as a group to make sure irresponsible boaters don’t ruin it for the rest of us.

Edited by Brett B
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It's disappointing to see the short sightedness of the slalom guys pointing the finger at wakeboat owners. Slalom boats cause more erosion and noise than a fisherman in a john boat cruising along at 2 knots, so are you ok if they ban you guys for excess erosion/noise too? Of course not.

Safety of your family from a wake hitting a dock? You have got to be kidding. How about you post a link to anybody who has ever been seriously injured or killed by a wakeboard wake while sitting on a dock. I won't hold my breath.

You know what's a safety concern for me and my family? Any boat traveling over 25mph. If you are a slalom or barefoot guy, this means you. Because guess what, boats going too fast hit people in the water and kill them (like a downed wakeboarder). You can find a dozen articles of people in the water being killed by boats traveling too fast. If you’re so concerned with safety how come you aren’t all for imposing speed limits? Because it bans your watersport of preference of course.

So if the watersports community really wants to cannibalize itself in the name of "safety", then count me as one vote for the 25mph speed limits too. In reality I don’t think we should ban a thing, and should instead work together as a group to make sure irresponsible boaters don’t ruin it for the rest of us.

Try standing on a floating dock with your 70 year old mother and have a 3 foot wave hit it. That's a safety issue, a-hole!!!!!
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I like to wakeboard, I like to surf, and I will pull the occasional tube if someone wants, it all about fun. I am not for banning anything, but you guys claiming that a waterski wake is just as powerful or worse than a surf wake, come on. If any are on floating docks, you would not even compare the two. When we're in Parker, there's the floating bar roadrunners, and you should see the boats get hammered along the dock with a surf wake vs the dude going 25-30mph. The bigger the wake, the more it is going to shake things. At some point (I would assume) all of us have had to turn their boat I a different position because of the size of wake coming. When was the last time a Malibu response put a roller over your bow doing 30? I don't even ski, but the plain fact is OUR (mine included) boat wakes have to potential to do more damage. I'm not comparing to the 100 foot vessel crushing some of your rivers because that makes no sense, but if we are purely talking about wake/ski boats, which we kind of should be, we just need to be mindful of others.

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It's disappointing to see the short sightedness of the slalom guys pointing the finger at wakeboat owners. Slalom boats cause more erosion and noise than a fisherman in a john boat cruising along at 2 knots, so are you ok if they ban you guys for excess erosion/noise too? Of course not.

Safety of your family from a wake hitting a dock? You have got to be kidding. How about you post a link to anybody who has ever been seriously injured or killed by a wakeboard wake while sitting on a dock. I won't hold my breath.

You know what's a safety concern for me and my family? Any boat traveling over 25mph. If you are a slalom or barefoot guy, this means you. Because guess what, boats going too fast hit people in the water and kill them (like a downed wakeboarder). You can find a dozen articles of people in the water being killed by boats traveling too fast. If you’re so concerned with safety how come you aren’t all for imposing speed limits? Because it bans your watersport of preference of course.

So if the watersports community really wants to cannibalize itself in the name of "safety", then count me as one vote for the 25mph speed limits too. In reality I don’t think we should ban a thing, and should instead work together as a group to make sure irresponsible boaters don’t ruin it for the rest of us.

Talk about short sighted...... :Doh:

I don't have links for people being killed or anything. But we have a damaged dock from the big wakes hitting our dock this summer. It's going to cost our HOA about $400 to replace the steel fittings where the finger is pinned to the main dock section. Plus the boat that was in the slip at the time it broke had some damage that the owner is having repaired himself.

We have a speed buoy about 75' out from the end of our dock. The boarders like to bonk/slide off the buoy as they go by. And I've seen both surfers & boarders riding inside the buoy line. If we're standing on the dock when they do that, you have to be prepared for the dock to really get rockin as the waves go by. IF a slalom boat ever did that, the wave would be way smaller, but I just haven't seen that happen. Their usually out so early in the day, they can ski pretty much anywhere & get flat water & don't bother with the buoy line.

Just gets back to being considerate of others on the lake. Some people don't get it, or don't care.

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Come on guys, no more name calling. If you continue with the discussion and can't be respectful to others opinions you might want to stay out of the discussion. All of these situations are different for each instance where the problems are occurring. We have to take into consideration we may not all be in each situation nor understand the opinion from the other side. First warning.

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Come on guys, no more name calling. If you continue with the discussion and can't be respectful to others opinions you might want to stay out of the discussion. All of these situations are different for each instance where the problems are occurring. We have to take into consideration we may not all be in each situation nor understand the opinion from the other side. First warning.

I called Mother Nature a b****. If your warning is referring to me, then I would like to formally apologize to her (does she read this forum?). :rofl:

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Talk about short sighted...... :Doh:

I'm not talking about dock damage. I'm talking about banning the TYPE of boat you don't like and assuming there is nobody out there wanting to ban the TYPE of boat that you DO like. That is extremely short sighted.

Do you really think the average person can tell a ski boat from a wake boat? As far as they are concerned they all say Malibu on the side and they all pull somebody by a rope. Be careful what you wish for, especially when you start saying it's for "safety". Guess what, fast moving boats kill a lot of people each year. A wake rocking somebody's dock does not. If you start shouting the safety argument then you will not like the results because ski boats (and anything moving fast) will get banned too.

Are you ok with banning slalom skiing, or setting an absolute 25mph speed limit? If not then you shouldn't be rallying for banning wakeboats. Of course you shouldn’t surf right next to somebody’s dock. I would never do that and nobody here has said they approve of it.

I had an instance on our local water of a slalom guy following too close to our riders and then passing too close. Later on he drove at us doing ~40mph as we were sitting still, and then turned at the last second. He thought it was funny. The guy was driving like a jackass and we were furious because it was very unsafe and we told him so. Should I petition to ban slalom skiers from our water because of one guy misbehaving? Should I petition for a 25mph speed limit to effective ban him from our spot? Of course not. Like I said before, we should work together to address bad behavior regardless of who is doing it.

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I agree 100 percent that most wakes that come by our docks are from tubers. Frankly, I expect that. I have no problem with normal boat wakes from skiers, fishermen, pontoons, bowriders, etc. It would be unreasonable for me to expect that there wouldn't be any wakes at all. In fact, it would be pretty boring without seeing other boats and people skiing, boarding, barefooting, etc. My issue is with the extremely weighted down boats that put out tremendous wakes close to my dock that does damage to my property and is a safety concern for my family. I am less concerned about erosion as it is a much smaller problem for me that potential dock damage. I will repeat...You are responsible for your wake and the damage it causes to other people's boat or property.

Then the offenders cutting that close to your dock need to be ticketed. Your not suggesting banning surfing because some people surf to close to your dock are you? A little like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I have no sympathy for your position. Big boats plow by my dock all the time and I have made no effort to ban all big boats because quite simply they should just be ticketed.

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OK, has the meeting happen yet I'm sorry I didn't read all 80 post or when is it. Who around the area is going. If you live in the area and don't plan on going it is like complaining about a president and not voting. And for all the parties involved just keep in mind you may what you want today and they make take a little rights away from the other people but when do we call it enough or one day we want even have to worry about if we are voting for a president or going to a meeting. We will just do as we are told. I'm a very happy person and when I see things like this it just makes me sad. Good luck to the people that want to keep this great country FREE. :cheers::guns::boat::skiing::surfing::footing::partytime::christmas::usa::salute:

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I'm convinced this thread was started by a Team Talk follower to tear this community apart :)

While I do have a Team Talk account from years ago before I bought my first Malibu, no, I didn't start this thread to rip this community apart. I just read this about Lake Austin where we boat and wondered if it was occurring elsewhere too. My intent was to see if any other Austinites were aware of this happening and to see if there was any precedent from elsewhere.I seem to pick sports with land use controversy as my #1 sport is mountain biking and these issues are very similar.

Edited by Asmodeus2112
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