Erosion Concerns

[Asmodeus2112]

OK, has the meeting happen yet I'm sorry I didn't read all 80 post or when is it. Who around the area is going. If you live in the area and don't plan on going it is like complaining about a president and not voting. And for all the parties involved just keep in mind you may what you want today and they make take a little rights away from the other people but when do we call it enough or one day we want even have to worry about if we are voting for a president or going to a meeting. We will just do as we are told. I'm a very happy person and when I see things like this it just makes me sad. Good luck to the people that want to keep this great country FREE.

The meeting is today at 4PM. I can't leave work, but was hoping someone from the board had the ability to listen in.

The meeting starts at 4 p.m. Oct. 22 at 811 Barton Springs Road in the first-floor conference room.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Asmodeus2112

[CincyVLX]

I didn't read through everything, so this may have been said before, but there are several local private lakes that have this exact policy. If they see you using any wake enhancements, you are ticketed.

I personally think that this is ridiculous because you can have 10 people in your boat while you're wakeboarding, surfing, etc., but you can't have a bag or tank of water that weighs the same.

[Lance B. Johnson]

I didn't read through everything, so this may have been said before, but there are several local private lakes that have this exact policy. If they see you using any wake enhancements, you are ticketed.

I personally think that this is ridiculous because you can have 10 people in your boat while you're wakeboarding, surfing, etc., but you can't have a bag or tank of water that weighs the same.

on top of that did they outlaw the big boats?

[wakebrdr94]

It was only a joke....

[CliffB]

Cliff.....

This is the post I was responding to :

Item 1: So, see my above post......... You OK with creating a speed limit on your lake? Yeah, didn't think so. Why not? Because that affects YOUR ability to participate in your chosen water sport. Them's the simple facts.

In Item #2 you are saying "we" are specifically talking about wake boats, correct? That is false. All boats cause shoreline erosion. YOU (and others like you) are one that has boiled it down to an issue about wake boats. YOU have deemed your boat as acceptable (shocker) and others' boats as unacceptable.

On Item #3: You are, again, talking about the irresponsible boaters. What I am trying to get through to you is: We get it!! Nobody, I repeat, Nobody is advocating for irresponsible behavior! You implying this is a wake boat issue just goes to show how biased and out of touch you are on the subject.

Lastly, in the quoted post you said to "have a little perspective please". The very definition of "having a little perspective" would require you to understand that 10 years before YOU moved into your place, the fisherman didn't have waterskiiers flying up and down the lake at 35 mph....... and the "wave action" in that 10 year period increased as well........but they haven't legislated against you have they? But, but, but that is different, right? Yeah "perspective"........

Thanks BS, I understand what you're saying now.

Regarding 1., I never suggested a speed limit. You must have me confused with someone else. But now that you mention it however, I would be supportive of a 35 mph speed limit. Doing 70mph down the lake is just plain dangerous for everyone. I've done 46mph in my boat...exactly twice, and that's enough for me, don't need to ever do that again.

Regarding 2. I thought the whole point was to talk about the effects of wake on other boats, property owner's etc., and see if there's a consensus around what is acceptable? And, yes, I would say the boat I have (and the manner in which I use it) places a much, much smaller burden upon other boaters and property owners, than a wake-boat does in action. It's not comparable. Take a look at the kind of wake my boat puts out:

.

Compare to this:

Regarding 3., I think you must have me confused with another poster. All I said is, as an overall theme, everyone on the lake needs to be generally responsible in their behavior (moderate music/noise, don't drive 10 feet away from a dock, etc.). Maybe that seems like stating the obvious to you, but you can see from other's comments here about their on-lake experiences that there are plenty of people on the lake for whom this is NOT stating the obvious, so it bears stating it here.

And, yes, my boat makes more wake than a rowing skiff or a stationary 16' alu fish boat does, same as those boats make more of a wake than a gnat swimming along, but we're not really talking about that here. That's just a logical argument taken to its illogical extreme to try to confuse the issue, and draw attention away from the fact that what's really causing consternation with other boaters, property owners, and local authorities, is wake boats intentionally causing really large wakes.

And, yes, I'm an Old Skool skier, not a wake boarder/surfer. I don't support the right to make as big of a wake as you can/want to on the lake - that bones up my skiing for the day for the most part, and my old Malibu Skier is bouncing all over the place when I anchor up with my kids for a spot of lunch and some fishing. If I owned a house on the lake and was suffering some damage to dock/property/shoreline due to really large wakes then I'd feel doubly sure of my position. But you don't need to argue it with me, this argument is in play across thousands of lakes across the country....which brings me back to my original point, exercise a little moderation and restraint in your behavior on the lake: don't make monster wakes, don't make monster wakes all day, don't drive close to anyone's dock or other boats, etc. etc....with some restraint in behavior the ammo is taken away from those who want to impose drastic limitations upon pleasure boaters (ie everyone, not just people with wake boats). If that's being narrow minded then I don't know what to say....other than whatever dude, the local authorities are drafting ordinances right now all over the country to ban artificial wake making. Thems the facts jack.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I could care less is anyone agrees with me. I'm just stating a personal view which happens to also be held by a very large number of people who are fellow boaters and shoreline property owners.

Everyone pays the price for a smaller group of people taking things too far. It's all about exercising some restraint and considerate behavior at a basic level.

Edited October 22, 2012 by CliffB

[CincyVLX]

on top of that did they outlaw the big boats?

It has always been a lake that only allows boats up to 23 feet in length. Their regulation reads as follows:

(1) “BLADDER BOAT, BALLAST OR WAKEBOARD BOAT.” A monohull motorboat artificially filled with water or other liquid in a cavity chamber Ballast tanks on or within the motorboat or artificially weighted with foreign material on or in the monohull motorboat and/or utilizes hydraulically controlled devices that alters the way a boat planes on the waters of Lake Williamstown or designed to create large wakes, but does not include live bait wells intended solely to store or hold live fishing bait, or live wells for the purpose of holding live fish.

People still wakeboard and surf there. Just have to use humans as ballast instead.

This was passed within the past 10 years because of similar issues that were mentioned in the OP's article.

[nyryan2001]

My boat is pretty much a dedicated surf boat. I am courteous, trying not to swamp docks or other folks. The 3 to 4 rollers on my surf side are straight ridiculous. I can positively confirm that they will swamp the front of a loaded MC that is stationary with bow pointed into my rollers.

The only time I would come close to docks is where I was forced to because it becomes narrow or another boat passing forced me closer. Same for ramps when folks are trailering, I do everything to avoid throwing rollers. In an open lake, I wouldnt come close to docks. Even when I come closer I dont break the laws...but yep it certainly does throw big rollers into those docks. Sorry for that, but if you build a dock 20-30-40ft into a narrow area of a main waterway, you should take prudent measures knowing this. I probrably would not have an elderly friend on an unstable floating dock on the afternoon of July 4th in a narrow waterway.

More often I feel terrible about the guy in a tiny John boat or a canoe, not the dock owner. If you wanna chill out, fish, and listen to the radio in a main area of a lake in a tiny paddle boat, dude you are gonna be in for a ride, even if I am staying 100-200ft away. Especially when there are tons of other shallow coves and areas where you could do that and not be within 1000ft of another boat. in some lakes, that have rather small concentrated areas that are suitable for waterports, it seems that all too often thats where these folks in the tiny canoes and paddle boats want to hang out.

Edited October 22, 2012 by nyryan2001

[BREZ]

As a lake front property owner on a small lake I deal with huge wakes and skiers coming to close as I am located on a point. Early morning a bare footers spray will hit our water trampoline. I understand that they need the longest straightest line and they cut the point short. Afternoons & evenings huge wakes from tubers, surfers, & wake boaders. It is what it is. I have rebuilt my breakwall, and have the water trampoline for the kids and to keep boats a little further out. The lake association has asked the property owners to police themselves by calling in boats they feel are not operating properly. The lake association goal is for water quality. I use large springs similar to a garage door for my pontoon boat becuase wakes toss it around. Now some drivers have no idea how hard a large wake comes in. A large wake will take your legs out and the small beach area we have needs sand each year. I choose to live where we are & try to deal with the wakes. I enjoy watching skiers, wake boarders & surfers so I deal with the wakes & boats. For a couple of boat & jet ski operators that should not be behind the wheel I would love to take my sledge hammer through the side of their watercraft. That may seem severe but some people just don't care.

[wakebrdr94]

Don't confuse matters. Nobody is claiming this. Nobody.

What people have said is that ALL boats cause erosion. That is a fact.

True, but it is a fact that a Wakesurf wake will do more harm than the wake in the above video. I haven't heard anyone say we should ban surfing, just be more considerate where and how it's done. But your attitude of "if you bought property on the lake, deal with it" is wrong. Yes we have to share the waterways, but a little consideration is all anyone asks for. Ive already said I'm guilty of above said, but I have a feeling if it were your boat getting hammered, or your boat slamming into your dock, you'd sing a little different tune.

Edited October 23, 2012 by wakebrdr94

[Night Rider]

Not so. I would put in a fixed power lift. Guess I wouldn't have to worry about the rollers Then.

[wakebrdr94]

So your boat is either in a marina, or an area that does not see traffic with large wakes, or on a lift. Not too weird

[Lance B. Johnson]

Thanks BS, I understand what you're saying now.

Regarding 1., I never suggested a speed limit. You must have me confused with someone else. But now that you mention it however, I would be supportive of a 35 mph speed limit. Doing 70mph down the lake is just plain dangerous for everyone. I've done 46mph in my boat...exactly twice, and that's enough for me, don't need to ever do that again.

Regarding 2. I thought the whole point was to talk about the effects of wake on other boats, property owner's etc., and see if there's a consensus around what is acceptable? And, yes, I would say the boat I have (and the manner in which I use it) places a much, much smaller burden upon other boaters and property owners, than a wake-boat does in action. It's not comparable. Take a look at the kind of wake my boat puts out:

.

Compare to this:

Regarding 3., I think you must have me confused with another poster. All I said is, as an overall theme, everyone on the lake needs to be generally responsible in their behavior (moderate music/noise, don't drive 10 feet away from a dock, etc.). Maybe that seems like stating the obvious to you, but you can see from other's comments here about their on-lake experiences that there are plenty of people on the lake for whom this is NOT stating the obvious, so it bears stating it here.

And, yes, my boat makes more wake than a rowing skiff or a stationary 16' alu fish boat does, same as those boats make more of a wake than a gnat swimming along, but we're not really talking about that here. That's just a logical argument taken to its illogical extreme to try to confuse the issue, and draw attention away from the fact that what's really causing consternation with other boaters, property owners, and local authorities, is wake boats intentionally causing really large wakes.

And, yes, I'm an Old Skool skier, not a wake boarder/surfer. I don't support the right to make as big of a wake as you can/want to on the lake - that bones up my skiing for the day for the most part, and my old Malibu Skier is bouncing all over the place when I anchor up with my kids for a spot of lunch and some fishing. If I owned a house on the lake and was suffering some damage to dock/property/shoreline due to really large wakes then I'd feel doubly sure of my position. But you don't need to argue it with me, this argument is in play across thousands of lakes across the country....which brings me back to my original point, exercise a little moderation and restraint in your behavior on the lake: don't make monster wakes, don't make monster wakes all day, don't drive close to anyone's dock or other boats, etc. etc....with some restraint in behavior the ammo is taken away from those who want to impose drastic limitations upon pleasure boaters (ie everyone, not just people with wake boats). If that's being narrow minded then I don't know what to say....other than whatever dude, the local authorities are drafting ordinances right now all over the country to ban artificial wake making. Thems the facts jack.

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I could care less is anyone agrees with me. I'm just stating a personal view which happens to also be held by a very large number of people who are fellow boaters and shoreline property owners.

Everyone pays the price for a smaller group of people taking things too far. It's all about exercising some restraint and considerate behavior at a basic level.

This post clears up ANY doubt that I had that you were genuinely concerned about erosion or property damage and enforces my belief that you would use both of those reasons in support of your endpoint....to have the water to yourself.

It is no different than me legislating a ban on Bass tournaments on the lake we frequent for the sole reason because we can't safely wakeboard, ski, or surf.

I am willing to bet if they had Bass tournaments with 5am starts on your lake you'd be all up in arms trying to eliminate someone else's fun. Of that I have no doubt.

[Lance B. Johnson]

So your boat is either in a marina, or an area that does not see traffic with large wakes, or on a lift. Not too weird

Well I can tell you exactly why my boat, moored right in front of my dock, never sees a scratch from all the traffic and cruisers plowing by. I secure my boat properly for the conditions and environment that surrounds it. I have never had an issue.

[CliffB]

Don't confuse matters. Nobody is claiming this. Nobody.

What people have said is that ALL boats cause erosion. That is a fact.

BS, you're confused. What we are discussing here is something which is a matter of degree. Do you know what that means? It seems that you do not.

If you don't understand, I'll make it clear for you. Yes, all boats cause some wake, but that's not what's causing concern. What's causing concern now is the very large wakes now being made by wake-boats....in other words, wakes much larger (ie. by some meaningful amount) than boats (not designed to make large wakes) previously made. Hence the trend toward ordinances banning artificial wake creation apparatus, just for example. Take a look at the youtube clips above and not much else needs to be said. You're just trying to confuse the issue.

I don't burden others with a big wake or loud music or proximity. In other words, I act responsibly, and with some care for other people and their enjoyment and property. I would hope that you and other boaters do the same.

[wakebrdr94]

So your boat is located no where near the traffic you face. That's all you have to say. Good for you that you can navigate all that crap, and I'm sorry you have too. If that's where you choose to boat, then those are the things that come with it. So if asking for a little consideration from others (not asking to ban anything) is acting like I own the place, guilty!

As for me, this is what we put up with on busy weekends and tube floats. Because we can really act like we own the place in this. But I will take this Vs what you describe. Doesn't gal under erosion, but more of a good time

Edited October 23, 2012 by wakebrdr94

[CliffB]

This post clears up ANY doubt that I had that you were genuinely concerned about erosion or property damage and enforces my belief that you would use both of those reasons in support of your endpoint....to have the water to yourself.

It is no different than me legislating a ban on Bass tournaments on the lake we frequent for the sole reason because we can't safely wakeboard, ski, or surf.

I am willing to bet if they had Bass tournaments with 5am starts on your lake you'd be all up in arms trying to eliminate someone else's fun. Of that I have no doubt.

I'm not concerned about erosion damage. I never said I was. I don't own property on the lake. I AM concerned about a few people making such big wakes that it's difficult for others to reasonably enjoy the lake. I basically can't ski anymore on my local lake there's so much wake now, and it's almost impossible to enjoy a day on the lake with my small kids because the boat is bouncing around so much it's about impossible to fish or have a decent lunch. Heck, they can't even really swim - one almost got knocked out when the swim step was flying all over the place as three or four big rollers went by. I'm concerned about the little ones falling out of the boat too with rollers like that. It wasn't like this 20 years ago.

It's all about using some restraint in your behavior to respect that others are using the lake as well for their recreational purposes. An angler doesn't bother anyone, a ski boat with a very small wake doesn't bother anyone, a paddleboarder doesn't bother anyone. But a big a** wake bothers everyone except the person intentionally making the wake.

Nobody expects to have the lake to themselves, but everyone should be able to get some pleasure and recreation out of it provided they're not unreasonably burdening all others. It's a very simple concept, and it's really the central idea behind the wake ordinances that are being drafted and imposed on more and more lakes across the country. Some people approach it from the standpoint of erosion (property owners), some from the standpoint of their own recreational desires (anglers and skiers and sunbathers), and other people in any number of different ways, but it's all really the same thing. In other words, be broad minded about what you're doing, and how it's affecting other people and their enjoyment.

And you're calling me narrow minded? Ah, go back to skool and take Logic 101.

Edited October 23, 2012 by CliffB

[Michigan boarder]

As a lake front property owner on a small lake I deal with huge wakes and skiers coming to close as I am located on a point. Early morning a bare footers spray will hit our water trampoline. I understand that they need the longest straightest line and they cut the point short. Afternoons & evenings huge wakes from tubers, surfers, & wake boaders. It is what it is. I have rebuilt my breakwall, and have the water trampoline for the kids and to keep boats a little further out. The lake association has asked the property owners to police themselves by calling in boats they feel are not operating properly. The lake association goal is for water quality. I use large springs similar to a garage door for my pontoon boat becuase wakes toss it around. Now some drivers have no idea how hard a large wake comes in. A large wake will take your legs out and the small beach area we have needs sand each year. I choose to live where we are & try to deal with the wakes. I enjoy watching skiers, wake boarders & surfers so I deal with the wakes & boats. For a couple of boat & jet ski operators that should not be behind the wheel I would love to take my sledge hammer through the side of their watercraft. That may seem severe but some people just don't care.

You just described our own exact situation (minus the pontoon) and opinions.

[Lance B. Johnson]

I'm not concerned about erosion damage. I never said I was. I don't own property on the lake. I AM concerned about a few people making such big wakes that it's difficult for others to reasonably enjoy the lake. I basically can't ski anymore on my local lake there's so much wake now, and it's almost impossible to enjoy a day on the lake with my small kids because the boat is bouncing around so much it's about impossible to fish or have a decent lunch. Heck, they can't even really swim - one almost got knocked out when the swim step was flying all over the place as three or four big rollers went by. I'm concerned about the little ones falling out of the boat too with rollers like that. It wasn't like this 20 years ago.

It's all about using some restraint in your behavior to respect that others are using the lake as well for their recreational purposes. An angler doesn't bother anyone, a ski boat with a very small wake doesn't bother anyone, a paddleboarder doesn't bother anyone. But a big a** wake bothers everyone except the person intentionally making the wake.

Nobody expects to have the lake to themselves, but everyone should be able to get some pleasure and recreation out of it provided they're not unreasonably burdening all others. It's a very simple concept, and it's really the central idea behind the wake ordinances that are being drafted and imposed on more and more lakes across the country. Some people approach it from the standpoint of erosion (property owners), some from the standpoint of their own recreational desires (anglers and skiers and sunbathers), and other people in any number of different ways, but it's all really the same thing. In other words, be broad minded about what you're doing, and how it's affecting other people and their enjoyment.

And you're calling me narrow minded? Ah, go back to skool and take Logic 101.

You openly admit that you don't have property and your not concerned about erosion. Then what leg are you standing on in this argument? Your argument is exactly this, the wakeboarders and surfers screw up your water. Re-read -BS- post about where we boat you need some perspective.

There have been plenty of days when we have gone out only to find hundreds of fishing boats anchored in our path. Plenty of days when we have to react right now because a barge is coming by threatening to swamp our boat. Its the way it is and your argument carries NO WEIGHT when you make it so painfully clear what your real intent is.

Can't get more narrow minded then that.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Ruffdog

[Michigan boarder]

It wasn't like this 20 years ago.

Cliff - I agree with a lot of what you said, being broad minded, etc. There are a lot of people that instead get hung up on the above quote (I'm not saying you are, I'm just making a point). And they react by trying to impose new rules and regs. I'm actually not directing this at anyone, just interjecting some thoughts...waiting for a meeting to start.

We often put the Echelon on Muskegon Lake (4,500 acres). I can barefoot in the morning, but by afternoon, it's barely navigable with my boat. However - this lake has 40' go-fast boats off of Lake Mi, a huge car ferry boat making trips to/from Wisconsin, barges of coal in and out, and now ocean vessels (salties) delivering turbine parts from Korea and Germany. Nobody complains, because that's how it has always been on that lake. But when, on another lake, the types of boats and activities change, and people still expect the same lake as it was 20 years ago, problems start. I hear about it on so many different lakes. People need to be ready for change, but most are not. That concept applies to a lot of different areas of life.

But at the same time, people need to respect the boundaries of others. Unfortunately that seems to be eroding more than the shoreline.

[wakebrdr94]

That was sarcasm bud. In the next sentence I even say I'm sorry that you have to navigate that. Youre such a stand up guy for sharing the waterways, but everyone has to deal with your "deal with me" attitude. Again, it's awful to want people to show a little consideration for others. But after this discussion, I can see why they want to keep guys like you away.

Edited October 23, 2012 by wakebrdr94

[wakebrdr94]

Sure I would, pinto or Porsche, it's just a car. Does that sufficiently answer your question.

[Bill_AirJunky]

Wow, this is STILL goin on?? Need to let it go & agree to disagree.

BTW, heres a funky erosion story. The condos I lived in on Lake Sammamish had about 300' of waterfront that was located about 200' north of Idylwood Park. Over the years the city of Bellevue would bring in sand for the park shoreline, creating a nice beachfront. While we never brought any sand into the condos, the currents on the lake would naturally carry the sand to our shoreline, so much so that we had an awesome sandy beach & volleyball court & had to dredge under our docks a couple different times over the 7 or 8 yrs I lived there.

The lake naturally flows to the north, and the lake's outlet is maybe 1 mile or so north of this location. So I assume that the lake's natural currents were what was eroding the park's beach. We just were amazed at how much sand we always accumulated, even though we never brought it in... and it's not natural to the area.

Then again, Jeff with Inland Surf lives south of the park a mile or so, maybe it was their boats blowin the sand to the north.

[gatorboy112]

Trying to ban wake boats because of their ability to make huge wakes is ignorant. My buddys 23' I/O sea ray throws a good sized wake when we weigh her down. But doing that is like banning asians from Driving because a few of them can't drive well. (I'm half korean) Or saying black people can't attend Upper class social events because they're all gangsters. Or putting a ban on all cars until they are all governed to 70 or 75mph because of their ability to go faster than the fastest speed limit in the states. Or all motorcycles that have the ability to do wheelies or outrun cops. They need to just enforce the current laws and ticket the people who are acting like idiots

[nyryan2001]

man you can tell boating season has ended..... usually this happens over in the stereo forums. Good to see everyone back in form for fighting season.

[Steve B.]

man you can tell boating season has ended..... usually this happens over in the stereo forums. Good to see everyone back in form for fighting season.

For sure ! It's gonna be a long off season.

Steve B.