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What's legal? just nav lights?


85 Barefoot

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In the 2013 purchase thread some statements were made that Malibu continues to install lights that they know are illegal. I asked for a regulation on that and got told to do my homework.

So, I have looked at coast guard regs as well as summaries and have not come across anything that prohibits anything that Malibu may install (docking lights, tower lights, underwater lights, etc.). The rules only speak to what you must have. Clearly there are people who think what Malibu installs is not legal to use. I don't know the answer, I only know that I boat at night frequently and use many different light combinations in addition to the "requirements", have operated in the vicnity of patrols, and have never been told that any lighting other than nav and anchor lights is prohibited. So, question is, what are other people's understanding and from what experience or reg have you come to that conclusion?

Below are some links:

http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/workflow_staging/Publications/420.PDF

http://www.uscg.mil/directives/cim/16000-16999/cim_16672_2d.pdf

Again, I don't know the answer but have just not come across anything that would corroborate what some others have said about their illegality. Maybe someone will have something to actually contribute as opposed to just saying do your homework when someone asks a question.

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The only thing I would think off hand are the use of some of the lighting. You can not run with docking lights on. It makes the bow light undefinable, making port and starboard undefinable to oncoming traffic. I would think it might be the same for tower lighting.

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My understanding is in the hear-say category. My understanding was that you only ran aux lighting such as docking/search etc for the purpose of their intention, and at headway speeds. Docking lights are not head lights and shouldn't be used as such. You are not only hurting your night vision but those vessels around you. I've heard people say the docking lights don't work well and project far, they aren't supposed to. They are to light up a small area in front of you when maneuvering close and coming into dock. I would think the water police might get a bit irritated if they say you running open water with high powered lights going. don't get me wrong, I've had 55W spreader lights and 2MM CP spot lights going to find channel markers at night coming in from the ocean, but I never ran open water with that.

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:plus1: to what 6ball said. Here in TN, it is illegal to run with docking lights as well as tower lights for the he reason stated. Never had a problem with the law with docking lights when docking the boat, but they swarm like flies when any boater is running other lights when anchored or moving. I would imagine that the "fine print" in the law could be read to prohibit any light (read LED speaker rings and interior lights) that would "interfere with or otherwise pose a navigation hazard" but I'm no expert.
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85, I am pretty sure that is the CG law and TN follows it pretty much to the letter. Here you go, and the way it is written in the CFR it can be interprited pretty much however the law wants, according to your attitude when you get stopped. :)

Subpart C—Lights and Shapes

§ 83.20 Application (Rule 20).

(a) Compliance in all weathers. Rules

in this part shall be complied with in

all weathers.

(b) Rules concerning lights complied

with from sunset to sunrise; other lights.

The Rules concerning lights shall be

complied with from sunset to sunrise,

and during such times no other lights

shall be exhibited, except such lights as

cannot be mistaken for the lights specified

in these Rules or do not impair

their visibility or distinctive character,

or interfere with the keeping of

a proper lookout.

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85, I am pretty sure that is the CG law and TN follows it pretty much to the letter. Here you go, and the way it is written in the CFR it can be interprited pretty much however the law wants, according to your attitude when you get stopped. :)

Subpart C—Lights and Shapes

§ 83.20 Application (Rule 20).

(a) Compliance in all weathers. Rules

in this part shall be complied with in

all weathers.

(b) Rules concerning lights complied

with from sunset to sunrise; other lights.

The Rules concerning lights shall be

complied with from sunset to sunrise,

and during such times no other lights

shall be exhibited, except such lights as

cannot be mistaken for the lights specified

in these Rules or do not impair

their visibility or distinctive character,

or interfere with the keeping of

a proper lookout.

wdr, I agree that's there (obviously) and I read that, and I appreciate your contribution and effort.

However, I read the end as "saving" the ability to use lights. It says "no other lights shall be used except such lights...or do not impair their visibility or distinctive character, or interfere with the keeping of

a proper lookout."

Isn't the reasonable interpretation of that that in fact other lights can be used so long as they do not impair the visibility or the required nav lights or interfere with captain's ability to navigate? If that were NOT OK, then why have that exception? Why not simply say, no lights other than those required by these rules?

I'm not at all saying that it is better or preferred to have any other lights on, but statements made elsewhere are that they are illegal to use when "on the water". Even if docking lights are only used by the driver when putting on trailer, that's still on the water. same for underwater stern lights which in no way affect the visibility of the required nav lights. Thanks to anyone with a contribution.

Edited by 85 Barefoot
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85, I'm with you on this one. I imagine and I am no lawyer, that they wrote the law to allow some lattitude in enforcement. Kind of like, can an officer write his mom a ticket for doing 56 in a 55 absolutely (letter of the law) does he have to no (spirit of the law), it all depends on the bigger picture which is safety! The fuzzy area is in the interpritation. Was the ticket for operating the lights in an unsafe manner (partying) in a high traffic area causing a danger to navigation (probably ticket worthy) or was it a fisherman trying fix his boat so he doesn't eat a barge?

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In the 2013 purchase thread some statements were made that Malibu continues to install lights that they know are illegal. I asked for a regulation on that and got told to do my homework.

So, I have looked at coast guard regs as well as summaries and have not come across anything that prohibits anything that Malibu may install (docking lights, tower lights, underwater lights, etc.). The rules only speak to what you must have. Clearly there are people who think what Malibu installs is not legal to use. I don't know the answer, I only know that I boat at night frequently and use many different light combinations in addition to the "requirements", have operated in the vicnity of patrols, and have never been told that any lighting other than nav and anchor lights is prohibited. So, question is, what are other people's understanding and from what experience or reg have you come to that conclusion?

Below are some links:

http://www.uscgboati...cations/420.PDF

http://www.uscg.mil/...im_16672_2d.pdf

Again, I don't know the answer but have just not come across anything that would corroborate what some others have said about their illegality. Maybe someone will have something to actually contribute as opposed to just saying do your homework when someone asks a question.

The only time I've ever run with my docking lights on, I got pulled over and was told I can only have the bow and stern lights on while underway. When you're moored at anchor, the standard practice is to have a single 360 white light at the highest point on your boat. This was all covered in an American Sailing Association certification class I took as well.

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The only time I've ever run with my docking lights on, I got pulled over and was told I can only have the bow and stern lights on while underway. When you're moored at anchor, the standard practice is to have a single 360 white light at the highest point on your boat. This was all covered in an American Sailing Association certification class I took as well.

Did you get a ticket? if so, do you still have it?

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For argument's sake, the 'no other lights' could also include interior lights, map lights, etc in larger boats. They likely didn't want to limit it to just the bow/stern nav lights while underway.

Any forward/rearward facing lights can obscure the bow/stern lights from being clearly visible as well as interfering with the safe lookout of others.

Edited by wienrdog
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For argument's sake, the 'no other lights' could also include interior lights, map lights, etc in larger boats. They likely didn't want to limit it to just the bow/stern nav lights while underway.

Any forward/rearward facing lights can obscure the bow/stern lights from being clearly visible as well as interfering with the safe lookout of others.

True, however the regs also prescribe the viewing distance for both the nav and anchor lights. If those are still visible, is there an issue? I always used to gripe that the bow lights were angled down too far. Perhaps that's to keep the beam below the horizon for oncoming boats which would distort the bow light? I'll be taking a look at that this weekend!

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I poked around the RCWs (Washington law) and couldn't find anything specific. The closest was this

If you get pulled over for having tower lights/docking lights on and ask the officer "could you tell which way I was going" and they say yes then they are admitting that the lights did not prevent the nav lights from doing their job. Of course you could still be ticketed, then you need to decide if you want a lawyer to make that argument to the judge.

The Coast Guard regs are very similar to the TN rules posted above, but only apply to navigable waters. (which could probably spawn another topic in itself)

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What I posted above is from the USCG not TN and it is from the Code of Fed Regs, CFR 33 Sec 83. The TN regs are about as short and vague as a new coloring book so TN relies heavily on the CFR to fill in their blanks which I imagine is true of most states. To their credit they have some very user friendly common sense rules when it comes to the gray area of surfing and other water sports.

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Has any one actually contacted their local sheriff or contacted the CG to find out from them what the actual regs are? Seems like there is a lotta (WAG)ing going on, but little, outside of WDR, as far as hard facts.

The initial post made the comment: I only know that I boat at night frequently and use many different light combinations in addition to the "requirements", have operated in the vicnity of patrols, and have never been told that any lighting other than nav and anchor lights is prohibited.

Having driven this countries highways for a few decades, I know I exceed the speed limit quite often, in fact most of the time. I have even driven past (unknowingly) state troopers while speeding and not been issed a ticket. Just becasue I was not issued a ticket, does not mean I was not breaking the law.

So using that same rationale, when you have are using those many light combinations in the vacinty of patrols also applies. It could be that the patrol was having an indepth discussion about Monday Night Football, or they were off the clock, or any of a myriad of sound reasons why they did not issue you a ticket...but it by no means infers that you were not breaking the law. Hopefully that lenghty explanation quences your thirst for the answer you were looking for.

My experience out on the water has been that the patrol boats, whether they be CG or local sheriffs are as follows. It is either a code enforcement weekend, where they stop random boats to check for CG compliance or they leave boaters alone and only get involved if you are a danger to yourself or others, which is the more common. Sounds like WDR can go into more detail about the patrol aspect.

Edited by [email protected]
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We got pulled over on Shasta this summer with the underwater swimstep lights on. The cop said he could see them a mile behind us & didn't know if they were above water or below, but knew they weren't legal.

As for the tower lights, they piss me off every time we're sitting on the beach/dock/boat with 12,000 watts of flame throwing glare bearing down on us. I'd vote against them in a heartbeat. Not sure if people are just ignorant or inconsiderate.

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The biggest issue that I have run into other then the local retards ruining it for everyone else is that the police themselves don't always know the law so they swag it sometimes. I'm not bashing the law, I know from when I was a reserve officer for San Diego PD that the CA vehicle and penal codes are over whelming to say the least and even in my smaller town the local PD are in over their heads in other stupid stuff so when they get on the water to do enforcement they may not always be up to speed. To their credit they are not out writing tickets just for the hell of it either. I had some newbys come up to check and see if I was in distress when I was draining tanks and bags, they had no clue what a wakeboat or a surf board was (cue the banjos). So I sat there and b.s.ed with them while I drained to help prevent future issues and tell them how bad lake lice are J.K. To that end I have tried to learn as much as possible of the CFR and TN laws so I don't end up doing something questionable and try to inform my knuckle dragging boating friends of the same. For the extremly gray areas (boaters rights to beach their boats vs land owners rights about trespassing) I have actually printed out and laminated the codes to try and avoid having to go to court to get an interpritation dismissed. :) Bottom line is that the laws are open to interpritation and to err on the side of caution.

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What I posted above is from the USCG not TN and it is from the Code of Fed Regs, CFR 33 Sec 83. The TN regs are about as short and vague as a new coloring book so TN relies heavily on the CFR to fill in their blanks which I imagine is true of most states. To their credit they have some very user friendly common sense rules when it comes to the gray area of surfing and other water sports.

:lol: I guess that is why they looked the same. I need to slow down my reading next time.

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I guess everyone is done with this topic?? Looks like no has added their input in a couple of days.

having read it a couple of times, it looks as if the original question of whether tower lights are legal to have on at night was answered, both anecdotally (twice) and via the actual CG regs themselves. Although one person seemed to even question the written word.

I am sure anyone who has been blinded with someone's tower lights, will tell you that their vision was not only impaired, but outright blinded by the light!

That is what I like about this site, members can make a statement, have that statement questioned, and fellow members will take the time to share their life's experiences and even take the time to provide the actual CG regs to substantiate that the original statement to be in fact 100 % accurate and knew what they were talking about.

One of President Reagan's best quotes: Trust but verify.

Edited by [email protected]
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I guess everyone is done with this topic?? Looks like no has added their input in a couple of days.

having read it a couple of times, it looks as if the original question of whether tower lights are legal to have on at night was answered, both anecdotally (twice) and via the actual CG regs themselves. Although one person seemed to even question the written word.

I am sure anyone who has been blinded with someone's tower lights, will tell you that their vision was not only impaired, but outright blinded by the light!

That is what I like about this site, members can make a statement, have that statement questioned, and fellow members will take the time to share their life's experiences and even take the time to provide the actual CG regs to substantiate that the original statement to be in fact 100 % accurate and knew what they were talking about.

One of President Reagan's best quotes: Trust but verify.

I don't think it was answered though, I think it is a grey area because so far the laws referenced are (IMO) open to a fair amount of interpretation, which either fortunately or unfortunately depending on the outcome are often interpreted by the LEO on the scene. (California notwithstanding as they appear to be more strict, but I still haven't seen a reference to the Cali laws). I will run with my lights on if I think it is improving safety for me (so I don't run into someone or something) and others (not getting blinded, not getting run over because they chose to anchor/operate at night with no lights).

Edited by MalibuTime
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And I am one of those who have been pulled over when out on the water, and directed by both CG and sheriff, that anything other that the 2 aforementioned lights is illegal...did not the a ticket as it was only a warning. ANd was told that if seen again, our lake is pretty small lake so I know the local sheriffs on the water, with the tower lights on at night, I would be ticketed. So until anyone can provide actual verbage otherwise, I am going with what both told me. Like I said before, I see a allotta opinions and WAGs such as yours, but I have been told by both CG and sheriff, that it is illegal to have them on at night. And the explanation was that it blinds oncoming boats. Which it does. If 2 oncoming boats have their tower lights on, each is blinded by the other, so you may as well not have em on. Other than you can see what your about to run into. ha ha

And i don't care to sit and debate if speaker lights, cabins lights, etc or even a spot light are included...That would be juvenile to even think and or suggest that. It's only a gray area if you want to make it a gray area. I can read. And looking into those tower lights, does not impair ones vision, it blinds them.

i have em on my boat, and they only work if they reflect off something. Which most obstacles bobbing up and down in the water don't reflect light. Channel markers and the like do, but rocks, cat tails, logs, etc. don't. ANd if you have em on out in the middle of a big lake, you can 100 tower lights on, and you won't see much of anything (cause there is nothing to reflect the light back to you). They work great at night, when putting the boat on the lift...that and the bling is about all they are good for.

I am suprised there is not one sheriff or CG type on this site that could settle this tastes great, less filling debate.

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here's the reg:

The Rules concerning lights shall be

complied with from sunset to sunrise,

and during such times no other lights

shall be exhibited, except such lights as

cannot be mistaken for the lights specified

in these Rules or do not impair

their visibility or distinctive character,

or interfere with the keeping of

a proper lookout.

That's the definition of gray area. It's a judgment call as to what impairs the visibility and distinctive character of the required lights.

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In your world it is gray. I have enough annecdotal and personal evidence to make my hypothesis. Not sure what evidence you are basing yours on?? other than an opinion and a WAG!! Tower lights don't impair vision, they blind. end of discussion.

I can tell you are the type to ask what the definition of is, is.

As I said, just cause you "boat at night frequently and use many different light combinations in addition to the "requirements", have operated in the vicnity of patrols, and have never been told that any lighting other than nav and anchor lights is prohibited." You can not infer that it is NOT illegal...well any logical thinking person wouldn't. See my previous comment and comparison about speeding.

Although my imagination does run amuck when you are out on the water "using many different light combinations in addition to the requirements?" And I have to ask myself are hand puppets part of the show? And what is the cost of admission?

I have made my point(s), I will let my previous statements and experience and those fellow site members with their personal annecdotal evidence stand on their own merits. Good luck in your search for the truth. To find truth one must have their eyes and ears open.

Edited by [email protected]
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So here are my experiences....

on my first boat, an 02 VLX, I had tower lights, and they were pretty useless other than lighting up the shore, and lighting up the wake. Drove in shasta several years at night running tower lights, I was never stopped. I ran in parker for 8 years, never stopped or ticketed. Figured we'd do a night ride session in blythe, a patrol cop on shore waved us in, as we approached shore, I could tell I was blinding him, so shut the tower lights off. His comment when we got to him was "I can't ticket you for not having lights, I could see you a mile away" and just asked us to call it a night.

On my '10 VLX, I have the RGB speaker LEDs on the tower, have run at night numerous times, never been told anything or stopped under way. I have the under water transoms, I had it glowing at the bar and the cop there said it looked good, but did not mention that I could not operate while underway. They watched me pull away with the show going and nothing. I do not have any forward facing lights other than the bow light, and the light at the top of the tower.

As to what is Legal, I would argue that I am more visible at night. Although I change the tower colors away from blue and red when underway if they are on.

14df785c.jpg

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