Jump to content

Welcome to TheMalibuCrew!

As a guest, you are welcome to poke around and view the majority of the content that we have to offer, but in order to post, search, contact members, and get full use out of the website you will need to Register for an Account. It's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the TheMalibuCrew Family today!

Will aftermarket "surfgates" outperform stock Surfgate?


flapjack

Recommended Posts

Yep, that's exactly how it works. The system has it's own GPS receiver that is cabled to the control box. This feeds the unit the boats current speed and is used to deploy the gate when the boat exceeds the 7 mph mark. Unfortunately if you already have Stargazer or NL4 like Tao I wouldn't be able to tie into their receiver. The GPS receivers are serial devices and it wouldn't be wise to try to piggyback another controller onto the existing GPS receiver. I also am not familiar with their receivers, wiring pin out, etc.

:lol: I have no idea what labor is worth....I just want to do enough parts chasing and research so I don't loose money on the deal. :lol:

I guess a number of interested people would be helpful too so I know quantities of parts I'll need. Sounds like 3 so far.

Link to comment

The switches on the box top are an interesting idea, but keep in mind the control box will be fairly large to fit everything (controller, relays, terminal strips, voltage converters, etc). I think it might be better to have a wire going outside you can run to switches. Thoughts?

I'll look at enclosures and see what I can find that might be a bit more cost effective than a Pelican case. Unless we use panel mount connectors that are IP67 rated I don't think we'll ever be fully water tight. I can look into that if you guys want. It would make swapping the control box out a snap if need be, but connectors would add a bit of cost, probably $30-40 per unit.

The other thing connectors would allow is custom cabling solutions. For example Tao could have a cable that goes from the connector on the controller to the Deutsch connector on the actuators. Cervelo could have just a field installable connector that would let him do his own cable solution. Both would keep the control box the same.

Understood regarding the size of the box and mounting the switches. I can't remember if I have an open switch on the dash, but if not, I could mount it somewhere else. Also, I understand regarding tying into the NL4. Certainly, a solution that is as standalone as possible would be the best as it would work for everyone. Where would you envision placing "the box"? Under a seat and then running the cables to the switches by the dash (or throttle)? How big of a box are we talking about?

-Carl

Link to comment

I have been following this with quite a bit of interest. Great job BTW.

I have been looking at rigging something up this winter, very capapble of doing the work and having it manually deployed. However I don't have the knowledge to tie this into a speed (GPS) deployed setup. This is where I am quite interested in your box. My question though is would the input GPS signal needed for your box be OK to piggy back off of a perfect pass system or would I have to run a seperate GPS unit to feed your box?

1. Would you want switches included or flying leads to wire into your own switches to control the actuators. Flying leads would be cheaper and make it easier to add into several different model boats? Just wire coming out of the box, no switches. Wiring diagram a must.

2. Would you want enough wire attached to the control box to reach the rear of the boat (actuators)? No extra wire, I will add my own plugs. I would imagine each person will have their own unique needs. Seems simpler with just bare wire.

3. Would you want the control enclosed in a water tight housing? Any preference on the box? I used a Pelican case for mine, but they aren't cheap.

4. Would you want the wires leaving the box to go through panel mount connectors or would a hole in the box with the wire passing through be fine? Connectors are sweet, but would drive up cost. Both questions 3 & 4 what kind of cost would you associate with "water proofing" would make up my mind on which way to go.

Definitly a 3 switch design.

Knowing labour and design are definitly not free, why don't you come up with a number after your parts and time are factored in and go from there.

Link to comment

i am surely interested, but it is winter and my thinking was to wait until January or February to decide on which way to go. I love your system, best option to date...but am also interested in the rpm switch that was mentioned earlier in this thread and can't help but think someone is working on figuring out if that will work.

I want a system that will auto deploy/retract...how it does that is less critical.

I wonder what it will cost to have my fiberglass swim deck modified?

Link to comment

Yep, that's exactly how it works. The system has it's own GPS receiver that is cabled to the control box. This feeds the unit the boats current speed and is used to deploy the gate when the boat exceeds the 7 mph mark. Unfortunately if you already have Stargazer or NL4 like Tao I wouldn't be able to tie into their receiver. The GPS receivers are serial devices and it wouldn't be wise to try to piggyback another controller onto the existing GPS receiver. I also am not familiar with their receivers, wiring pin out, etc.

:lol: I have no idea what labor is worth....I just want to do enough parts chasing and research so I don't loose money on the deal. :lol:

I guess a number of interested people would be helpful too so I know quantities of parts I'll need. Sounds like 3 so far.

OK. So I think I understand....the GPS receiver is a stand alone unit (too good to be true to have it work off the StarGazer) and feeds into some sort of controller board. When the GPS senses 7 MPH the board sends a signal, closes a switch and 12V power is then applied to the actuator.

So, the questions that I have are 1) How does the power then get removed from the actuator? The only way I can think of is some sort of timing on the controller board. 2) At 13 MPH it closes again. I presume this just sends a signal to open (i.e disconnect) the extend circuit and closes another switch that allows power to flow in the opposite direction thus closing it. Is this correct? 3) Does the master switch just eliminate power to the actuators altogether?

Is there a way you could give a rough order of magnitude on costs? Obviously, we can figure out a fee for your labor (including doing the research on parts or making a parts list and instructions).

My guess is $60 for the GPS receiver and controller, maybe another $5-10 for some sort of flash memory and another $10-40 for the switching devices driven by the controller. (not including master switch and rocker switches that could be installed by the user). Is that at all in the ball park?

Again, for most people considering this I would assume they already have some technical abilities. Most people like me that have a technical/mechanical background can probably do most everything except the controller. That is truly a specialized field. While I'm sure it's not like splitting the atom, I would prefer not to spend my time learning how to do it when you obviously know what the heck you are doing. The question is: how to transfer your expertise (assuming you don't mind) the most efficiently? Is it easier for you to sell an instruction guide and parts list or would it be easier for you to just do the work and we pay you?

Thanks for all your time with this post (and your other ones as well). Sharing knowledge is truly the greatest benefit of any online forum and the Crew does a great job! -Marc

Link to comment

OK. So I think I understand....the GPS receiver is a stand alone unit (too good to be true to have it work off the StarGazer) and feeds into some sort of controller board. When the GPS senses 7 MPH the board sends a signal, closes a switch and 12V power is then applied to the actuator.

So, the questions that I have are 1) How does the power then get removed from the actuator? The only way I can think of is some sort of timing on the controller board. 2) At 13 MPH it closes again. I presume this just sends a signal to open (i.e disconnect) the extend circuit and closes another switch that allows power to flow in the opposite direction thus closing it. Is this correct? 3) Does the master switch just eliminate power to the actuators altogether?

Is there a way you could give a rough order of magnitude on costs? Obviously, we can figure out a fee for your labor (including doing the research on parts or making a parts list and instructions).

My guess is $60 for the GPS receiver and controller, maybe another $5-10 for some sort of flash memory and another $10-40 for the switching devices driven by the controller. (not including master switch and rocker switches that could be installed by the user). Is that at all in the ball park?

Again, for most people considering this I would assume they already have some technical abilities. Most people like me that have a technical/mechanical background can probably do most everything except the controller. That is truly a specialized field. While I'm sure it's not like splitting the atom, I would prefer not to spend my time learning how to do it when you obviously know what the heck you are doing. The question is: how to transfer your expertise (assuming you don't mind) the most efficiently? Is it easier for you to sell an instruction guide and parts list or would it be easier for you to just do the work and we pay you?

Thanks for all your time with this post (and your other ones as well). Sharing knowledge is truly the greatest benefit of any online forum and the Crew does a great job! -Marc

Martinarcher has said his setup has cost him around $1,000 plus many hours

Link to comment

Martinarcher has said his setup has cost him around $1,000 plus many hours

Obviously, I didn't see that so I apologize. I have to assume a fair bit of that is the actuators and the hardware. I am only interested in the what the price of the GPS controller and switches would be as I already have the actuators and other parts on the way. Also, I know he has spend numerous hours on the design and clearly it shows. I assume he doesn't mind sharing the information as he initiated the thread. With that in mind, I am asking the question about price because I could easily wire in a "manual" control for about $45. I love the idea of GPS based because it takes my wife and daughters off the hook when they drive. I'm just trying to figure out if it is worth it... and the only way I can do that is to understand the costs (of parts and effort). -Marc

Link to comment

Cool. Sounds good Ruff. I'll count you in.

Marc,

Yeah, my system wasn't cheap, but you are right I had a fair amount of the cost in actuators, teak, stainless, hinges, hardware, etc. As far as a price, I don't want to even guess what it will be right now, but I'll try to keep it as low as I can. I can tell you I won't be anywhere near $45 as the GPS receiver is more than that by itself. I also don't want it to be outrageous. I want to aim to make a reliable, quality control system the average DIY guy can use to add gates to their boat without breaking the bank. I'm kicking around the idea of spinning a custom board for this project. It might allow me to mount everything in a smaller/neater enclosure. It also cleans up a lot of the spaghetti wiring that I have in my box. I need to weigh the cost and see if it is worth it, but it will certainly clean things up and increase reliability.

As far as your questions.....

1. The actuators are controlled by a timer after they are initiated by speed or in manual mode. It takes just under 5 seconds for the actuator to fully extend or retract.

2. The extension and retraction of the actuators is done by applying +12VDC or -12VDC (reversing the polarity) to the actuator.

3. The "master switch" is just a speed enable switch. When it is on, the "armed" gates (the ones that are switched on) are deployed when the speed is between 7 and 12 mph. If the speed enable is off, the gates extend when the respective gate's switch is turned on, and retract when the switch is turned off - no speed requirements.

  • Like 2
Link to comment

Thanks for the info! I'm still very interested even if the price is far higher than I had imagined. Please let us know when you start getting some solid price info. I do agree that developing a custom board is probably the way to go. Despite the expense it will reduce the overall complexity and surely save on labor. -Marc

Link to comment

Thanks for the info! I'm still very interested even if the price is far higher than I had imagined. Please let us know when you start getting some solid price info. I do agree that developing a custom board is probably the way to go. Despite the expense it will reduce the overall complexity and surely save on labor. -Marc

Exactly. If it saves me some hours soldering on each box I will be a happy camper. :) I downloaded some board design software and will work on a board layout this weekend. I'll let you guys know when I get a ballpark figure nailed down (after I get a quote on a board).

Link to comment

I have been following this with quite a bit of interest. Great job BTW.

I have been looking at rigging something up this winter, very capapble of doing the work and having it manually deployed. However I don't have the knowledge to tie this into a speed (GPS) deployed setup. This is where I am quite interested in your box. My question though is would the input GPS signal needed for your box be OK to piggy back off of a perfect pass system or would I have to run a seperate GPS unit to feed your box?

1. Would you want switches included or flying leads to wire into your own switches to control the actuators. Flying leads would be cheaper and make it easier to add into several different model boats? Just wire coming out of the box, no switches. Wiring diagram a must.

2. Would you want enough wire attached to the control box to reach the rear of the boat (actuators)? No extra wire, I will add my own plugs. I would imagine each person will have their own unique needs. Seems simpler with just bare wire.

3. Would you want the control enclosed in a water tight housing? Any preference on the box? I used a Pelican case for mine, but they aren't cheap.

4. Would you want the wires leaving the box to go through panel mount connectors or would a hole in the box with the wire passing through be fine? Connectors are sweet, but would drive up cost. Both questions 3 & 4 what kind of cost would you associate with "water proofing" would make up my mind on which way to go.

Definitly a 3 switch design.

Knowing labour and design are definitly not free, why don't you come up with a number after your parts and time are factored in and go from there.

Sorry man - I missed your post somehow. :Doh:

I think for the switch the consensus is flying leads that can be wired up the your own switch which I think is the best bet. I will of course provide wiring help for the switch wiring - no problem there.

Cool. I would rather everyone provide their own wire as well and plugs for the actutors. This allows me to focus on just the box and not shop for reasonably priced high quality wire that can handle the current of the actuators under load. The control system is designed for 30 amps @ 12VDC per actuators, but they should never draw anywhere near that! I think a plug on the control box and a mating connector that can easily be terminated to supplied wire might be the way to go. Turck makes some nice, reasonably priced connectors I'm looking at for this project.

I'm also looking into IP67 enclosures that wouldn't add much cost to a normal project box. The box I have is about 8" X 6" X 3". No huge, but big enough you would want to hide it away under the dash where you can wire it into power, your dash switches, and run a wire to the rear for the actuators. I don't think the box being fully waterproof is a must since it will probably be tcked under the dash on most boats, but it would be a nice thing to have.

Link to comment

Marc,

.....

3. The "master switch" is just a speed enable switch. When it is on, the "armed" gates (the ones that are switched on) are deployed when the speed is between 7 and 12 mph. If the speed enable is off, the gates extend when the respective gate's switch is turned on, and retract when the switch is turned off - no speed requirements.

So when you want to make a slalom run, the master switch is off but the gates will open if switched manually? Would it be better to have a three position switch? I could see a speed enable, manual and off mode. Just thinking out loud. Probably not an issue.

BTW, I tried run thru my slalom course with one gate extended just to see what might happen. It wasn't pretty. About a 20 foot rooster tail on one side with a severe yaw. I stopped at about 25 mph after I had taken out one guide bouy and was aimed toward a turn bouy. I couldn't imagine what would happen if the thing tried to deploy at 34 mph.

Anybody know what the setup is on the 2013's with SurfGate?

Edited by High Altitude
Link to comment

Exactly! That's why I think the speed controlled method is best.

OK, now to explain the switches....there are three. Lets go through some example of positions.

We'll start with left surf off, right surf off and speed disabled (manual mode - gates deploy only based on surf switches). Essentially, all three switches off with the boat on the trailer.

We throw the left surf switch (L on, R off, speed disabled).

The left gate immediately deploys.

We now turn the left switch back off (L off, R off, speed disabled)

Since the left gate is deployed, it now immediately retracts.

Now we turn the right switch on (L off, R on, speed disabled)

The right gate now immediately deploys.

Now put the right switch back to off (L off, R off, and speed disabled)

The right gate immediately returns to the stowed position.

Now we'll launch the boat and use the speed switch. We now turn the speed switch on (speed mode) to enable speed control and then arm the right gate by turning it's switch on. (L off, R on, speed enabled).

Nothing happens until the boat reaches the 7-12 mph zone. Every time the speed is within that zone, the right gate deploys. If the gate is deployed and the speed falls out of the zone, it will return to the stowed position.

If the speed switch remains enabled and the right is turned off, and the left is turned on (L on, R off, speed enabled), the opposite gate will deploy and retract when in the surf speed zone.

Now here's where it gets fun. Lets say we have the speed enabled and the right switch on (L off, R on, speed enabled).

We take off and settle in at 10mph surfing happily on the regular side (port) with the right gate (starboard) deployed. After a minute or so, you signal the driver to swap surf sides. The driver turns the right off and th left on simultaneously. Since we are still going 10mph the right gate irremediably returned to the stowed position as the left gate deploys. Hopefully while you cross over and enjoy the goofy wave that is forming in the 5 seconds it takes the gates to swap. :)

Now keep in mind the left and right surf switches could easily be integrated into one rocker switch so you can easily toggle a single switch from left to right (with the middle position being no gate armed).

I made the manual mode basically for use on the trailer or tuning or working on the gates or the rare occasion where a gate could possibly get stuck and you want to immediately move it while the boat is at rest.

When on the water the speed switch should be enabled which ensures a gate is not deployed over 12 mph. For the slalom run you would want the left and right surf switches off so no gates deploy as the boat passes between 7 and 12 mph. If one was on by accident, the surf gate would deploy as the boat crossed 7 mph, but would then return to stowed as it crossed beyond 12 mph.

Sorry for the long post, but I think examples are some of the best ways to understand a control system. Gotta love "Use Cases". :lol:

Link to comment

Ah! Sorry to be slow on the uptake but that does explain the redundancy of the system very well. I was thinking that the system was put in the manual mode when at high speed but it is the other way around.

I received my actuators last night and am looking forward to getting them installed soon. It's a nice balmy 16 degrees this morning so my motivation to finish is a bit lacking today!

Link to comment

Could you possibly set the upper limit to 13MPH? I'm not sure how the gates will affect how fast I will be pulling, but when I am listing the boat, I sometimes take it up as high as 12MPH.

Link to comment

Martin, I think what you are doing is great, i would like to send you $200. to help offset your costs for getting this off the ground...if all works out, apply it to the cost of one of your units, if it doesn't work out, at least you didn't absorb all the costs yourself. PM me your address. thanks for doing this. bob

Link to comment

Martin, I think what you are doing is great, i would like to send you $200. to help offset your costs for getting this off the ground...if all works out, apply it to the cost of one of your units, if it doesn't work out, at least you didn't absorb all the costs yourself. PM me your address. thanks for doing this. bob

What a great idea. I would also like to send you (Martin) something to get this off the ground. If you have a paypal account, PM me the info and I'll get it to you ASAP.

Edited by Tao of Wake
Link to comment

Martin, I'm curious how hard it is to set the max speed up aswell. We often surf at 12.5 just testing things out to see where the best wake lies.

Could you set the upper limit to 13 instead of 12? Or is it something that can be adjusted after the fact by ourself, or is it a software thing that must be done by Mr Archer?

Link to comment

For what it is worth, I hear that Malibu is considering raising the upper "retract" limit on it's programming, because the gate was retracting too often due to slight speed fluctuations up during normal surfing. Shoot me your paypal info too. Thanks. Rob

Link to comment

Wow, thanks guys!

As for the speed zone limit numbers, those are no problem at all to change. The 7mph low end I am happy with, but I agree the top end should be pushed up a bit. 15 seems like a good number. The higher horsepower boats is where you run into the risk of a driver hammering down on the throttle and zipping through the surf speed zone before the Perfect Pass or speed control can settle the boat into the preset surf speed. You just don't want it too high or the gates are exposed to a lot more water pressure.

I could add some sort of config file and an SD card that it can be read from on bootup, but it's probably not worth the extra cost and complexity in the software. If it does need changed I can certainly update the software. I plan on making this system similar to the Perfect Pass setup where software updates can be mailed to the user via a chip that is put into the controller's socket. The old chip can then be sent back. We software guys never admit to writing software with bugs, but we've all been there and seen them. It's just wise to plan on software updates down the road whether they be bug fixes or feature updates.

Link to comment

yeah I'd chip in some on this crowdsourcing venture too.

On the manual mode, given the pressure at higher speeds, is there a failsafe so that even if you aren't in "speed mode" the gates retract as you go faster?

Link to comment

Thanks Sean. I appreciate it.

To answer your question, no there isn't but over the past couple days going through the different scenarios of what can happen on the water I think if the gate's state is currently deployed and the boats speed exceeds the top end of the surf speed zone, the gate(s) should retract as a mechanical safety to protect the gates from excess pressure.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...