Will aftermarket "surfgates" outperform stock Surfgate?

[barefootpaul]

Is the 12v to the servo motor hot all the time?

hmmm, good question.

I know mine beeps when it engages. You could probably trigger off that but you would have to rip apart the gauge.

[martinarcher]

I'm sure I would sell a pile of them. The problem is I would need a 2010 VLX in the garage for a couple weeks to design hinges and gates off of. The bigger problem is the patent issue.

I don't know if it would be worth it, but one thing I would be willing to do is help people with a control system for a set of home built gates. I'm sure I could come up with a box that you could plug a couple actuators into. It could include the GPS receiver for the speed actuation control on the gates.

[wakebrdr94]

So here's my question, the angle of the gate wouldn't vary boat to boat, just the shape of the tab due to hull shape? And by angle I mean deployed away from the hull

[Lance B. Johnson]

I'm sure I would sell a pile of them. The problem is I would need a 2010 VLX in the garage for a couple weeks to design hinges and gates off of. The bigger problem is the patent issue.

I don't know if it would be worth it, but one thing I would be willing to do is help people with a control system for a set of home built gates. I'm sure I could come up with a box that you could plug a couple actuators into. It could include the GPS receiver for the speed actuation control on the gates.

That's the part that keeps me from building one right there. I can't stand the thought of putting one of these on my boat unless its automated.

I have a really good clean idea for the gate that I haven't seen yet but I won't build it unless its automated.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Ruffdog

[Nitrousbird]

I'm sure I would sell a pile of them. The problem is I would need a 2010 VLX in the garage for a couple weeks to design hinges and gates off of. The bigger problem is the patent issue.

I don't know if it would be worth it, but one thing I would be willing to do is help people with a control system for a set of home built gates. I'm sure I could come up with a box that you could plug a couple actuators into. It could include the GPS receiver for the speed actuation control on the gates.

If Malibu is willing to sell the brackets and plates as replacement parts without having to have a HIN to go with it, I'd be game for this, assuming Malibu isn't charging stupid money for those parts.

I have a feeling a manual gate is in my future though.

[mainekneeboarder]

I have been wanting to tackle a gate project for a while but have had my time wrapped up in another project. I had thought of actuating it with an RPM switch, Wouldn't this be easier then trying to tie into PerfectPass or GPS unit? Martinarchers version is awesome!! But most of us don't have the knowledge to build that system. The RPM route seems it would be fairly easy. RPM window switch connected to a timed power source I would think would do it? It would still have to be manually turned on when you wanted to surf, and turned off when you wanted to do other sports, but I'm assuming you have to turn it on and off somehow on the new boats, thru PerfectPass settings? With a RPM window switch you would have the safety of it stowing at higher RPMs just in-case it got left on when going for a slalom/barefoot run.

[shawndoggy]

I have been wanting to tackle a gate project for a while but have had my time wrapped up in another project. I had thought of actuating it with an RPM switch, Wouldn't this be easier then trying to tie into PerfectPass or GPS unit? Martinarchers version is awesome!! But most of us don't have the knowledge to build that system. The RPM route seems it would be fairly easy. RPM window switch connected to a timed power source I would think would do it? It would still have to be manually turned on when you wanted to surf, and turned off when you wanted to do other sports, but I'm assuming you have to turn it on and off somehow on the new boats, thru PerfectPass settings? With a RPM window switch you would have the safety of it stowing at higher RPMs just in-case it got left on when going for a slalom/barefoot run.

Wow, I'd never even heard of a window switch. That sounds about perfect.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-830452-1/

[Nitrousbird]

Wow, I'd never even heard of a window switch. That sounds about perfect.

Window switches are commonly used in nitrous applications; a safe measure to ensure you don't spray at too low of an RPM (in general, you don't want to spray below 3000 RPM), and makes sure to shut off the spray prior to hitting the rev limiter.

This would be one solution; my concern would be if your RPM's change a lot due to boat weighting. I'd prefer the speed method personally, which there may be other built solutons out there that could be implemented. RPM switch would probably work decently though.

[Bradley Thornton]

If Malibu is willing to sell the brackets and plates as replacement parts without having to have a HIN to go with it, I'd be game for this, assuming Malibu isn't charging stupid money for those parts.

I have a feeling a manual gate is in my future though.

In the same boat it will be done by the end of the winter no matter what. But right now I just don't have time. I haven't seen my idea yet so we will see if it's better or not. But the manual wedge works great so why not have a manual gate.

[Slurpee]

I have seen my neighbor (Slurpeegate) do it for less that $30. Doesn't mean that I want that solution on my '10 model boat.

It was closer to $60 in the end.

I love it. I bet if I made it all pretty and fiberglass friendly you'd clamp it on just to see.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[martinarcher]

In the same boat it will be done by the end of the winter no matter what. But right now I just don't have time. I haven't seen my idea yet so we will see if it's better or not. But the manual wedge works great so why not have a manual gate.

The problem I had with a manual gate the size of mine is the slow speed steering. As soon as I slowed down, it's like someone is dragging paddle on one side of the canoe. The bat would immediately turn toward the non-surf side. It just isn't safe to drive on a crowded lake. My was certainly not a fan.

[Bradley Thornton]

Please, understand I'm not hating I think your gate is great. But I am a big safety guy and they all scare me. What happens if it closes and a foot or hand is in the way at 7 or 13 mph. I maybe missing something also.

[martinarcher]

I totally understand your point of view, but I think it is worse having a boat with poor steering at slow speeds than a gate that automatically retracts. We've been surfing for 4 years and I just can't see anyone getting pinched by a gate while normally surfing. I'm sure it is possible, but I would think unlikely at best.

There were a few times when running my manual gate that I had to use reverse because I simply couldn't get the boat to turn against the gate. Luckily I was testing late in the season and there was very little boat traffic.

[Bradley Thornton]

This is one of my ideas for reversing make it so it folds in half this way ---. It can open flat but when in reverse it can swig away from the boat that will cut down on much of the resistance in reverse and when I go to put it up it want be so big. I haven't done it yet so it may not work.

[High Altitude]

Why not just use the Lenco switch and put it right next to the throttle? As soon as you move the throttle forward and hear PP take over, you hit the switch. It opens just in time for rider to move into the pocket. As soon as the rider is done/crashed/whatever, you pull the throttle back to idle and hit the button to close. As you continue to move forward and eliminate speed, the gate closes and you are ready for the turn. That is what I plan to do unless someone can mass produce (or share a detailed design to copy) some sort of speed controller.

The gate is simply not an option unless it can close as slow speeds. The driving is far worse than a slammed boat IMHO. I could not make a left turn when I had my test gate on the right side. I had to make right turns only. Obviously, this isn't acceptable to anybody.

As far as the dangers of a gate, nothing worse that the overall boating experience. Anybody's dream day can turn into a nightmare if the fickle finger of fate has your number. Ski ropes have killed a few people, yet most still consider using a rope with an open handle an acceptable risk. I tend to agree.

[nyryan2001]

High- the only thing i see wrong with this, is unless you have a wizbang program like Martin Archer produced that is automatic, you gotta HOLD down those buttons until the gate is fully extended.... and paying attention to get it into the right place.... and then the opposite when you wanna stop and retract it. Hold and count to 5 each time. MAJOR PITA. we are already doing that with the stereo while surfing.

This is pretty much what has kept me from considering an after-mod gate. if someome can figure out how to work one of those RPM window switches...we might have a solution. For me it would be anything over 2500rpm.

Edited October 22, 2012 by nyryan2001

[Tao of Wake]

I was planning on extending the gate while the rider is getting ready (already has the rope) and then retracting it when the rider falls, I cut the throttle, and the boat starts turning on it's own due to the gate. I have the controls very near to the throttle, so this should be no problem. I was also thinking about mounting a second control unit where I would have a passenger sit so they could be responsible for this. I would certainly be interested in a Martinarcher control kit, though! That is by far the best solution.

Martin - Please let me know if you were serious about creating a "kit" that I could buy.

[High Altitude]

Well if you used the 6 pin switch that are used on ballast pumps, it would stay in the open or closed positions until you switched it to neutral. If I remember right, the lenco actuators have a cutout in the fully retracted and fully extended position so that they essentially are not operating. I will know for sure when my parts arrive and I can give some specifics. I ordered the parts and went with an LED position switch but that is mostly becuase I plan on doing a bunch of test at various angles and I thought it would be nice to know where the gate is without having to have somebody eyeball it. I have not committed to a final design. Speed control would obviously be the best, with RPM as a close second.

[martinarcher]

The Lenco's will continue to run as long as power is applied, but when they reach the end of their travel the "freewheel" so they don;t harm the drivetrain inside the actuator. Pretty cool design. I wouldn't run them longer than necessary, but if you are holding a button down get to the end of the travel it won't hurt to hold it a couple extra seconds to make sure.

[martinarcher]

I could certainly look into making a control box for you guys are interested. I don't think making a control box would violate any patents.

Couple questions for you guys...

1. Would you want switches included or flying leads to wire into your own switches to control the actuators. Flying leads would be cheaper and make it easier to add into several different model boats?

2. Would you want enough wire attached to the control box to reach the rear of the boat (actuators)?

3. Would you want the control enclosed in a water tight housing? Any preference on the box? I used a Pelican case for mine, but they aren't cheap.

4. Would you want the wires leaving the box to go through panel mount connectors or would a hole in the box with the wire passing through be fine? Connectors are sweet, but would drive up cost.

Here are the wires that would exit the control box....

-Actuator wiring harness (4 conductors).

-Switch wiring harness (4 conductors).

-GPS receiver cable.

-Power Harness (3 conductors).

Would you guys want a 3 switch design like mine or just two?

I have a left actuator, right actuator, and a speed enable switch.

With the speed switch is enabled, the control will deploy whichever gate is turned on when the boat is between 7 and 12 mph. If the boat exceeds 12mph or falls below 7mph the gate goes back to the stowed position.

With the speed switch disabled, the control will deploy the gates as soon as the respective gate's switch is turned on. It will stow the gate when it's switch is turned off.

It might be simpler to make the switch harness just 3 wires so you wire it to a rocker switch (left or right) and the control deploys the gate when the speed is between 7 and 12 mph.

What do you think this thing should cost? That will give me an idea what I can do with it. IMO I'd rather pay a bit more and get a better, more reliably built box with connectors and decent wire. Thoughts?

[Chia]

I could certainly look into making a control box for you guys are interested. I don't think making a control box would violate any patents.

Couple questions for you guys...

1. Would you want switches included or flying leads to wire into your own switches to control the actuators. Flying leads would be cheaper and make it easier to add into several different model boats? No switches, but a wiring diagram.

2. Would you want enough wire attached to the control box to reach the rear of the boat (actuators) No extra wire.

3. Would you want the control enclosed in a water tight housing? Not for me.

4. Would you want the wires leaving the box to go through panel mount connectors or would a hole in the box with the wire passing through be fine? Connectors are sweet, but would drive up cost. Hole in the box is fine.

Here are the wires that would exit the control box....

-Actuator wiring harness (4 conductors).

-Switch wiring harness (4 conductors).

-GPS receiver cable.

-Power Harness (3 conductors).

Would you guys want a 3 switch design like mine or just two? 3 switch.

I have a left actuator, right actuator, and a speed enable switch. sweet!

With the speed switch is enabled, the control will deploy whichever gate is turned on when the boat is between 7 and 12 mph. If the boat exceeds 12mph or falls below 7mph the gate goes back to the stowed position.

With the speed switch disabled, the control will deploy the gates as soon as the respective gate's switch is turned on. It will stow the gate when it's switch is turned off.

It might be simpler to make the switch harness just 3 wires so you wire it to a rocker switch (left or right) and the control deploys the gate when the speed is between 7 and 12 mph.

I am sure you have been getting pm's, i know i just haven't sent mine yet. This post is very timely.

[shawndoggy]

sure would be cool if lenco would adapt this thing, which is quite literally perfect for an aftermarket application (with a little tweaking for repurposing): http://www.lencoautoglide.com/index.html

[Tao of Wake]

I could certainly look into making a control box for you guys are interested. I don't think making a control box would violate any patents.

Couple questions for you guys...

1. Would you want switches included or flying leads to wire into your own switches to control the actuators. Flying leads would be cheaper and make it easier to add into several different model boats?

2. Would you want enough wire attached to the control box to reach the rear of the boat (actuators)?

3. Would you want the control enclosed in a water tight housing? Any preference on the box? I used a Pelican case for mine, but they aren't cheap.

4. Would you want the wires leaving the box to go through panel mount connectors or would a hole in the box with the wire passing through be fine? Connectors are sweet, but would drive up cost.

Here are the wires that would exit the control box....

-Actuator wiring harness (4 conductors).

-Switch wiring harness (4 conductors).

-GPS receiver cable.

-Power Harness (3 conductors).

Would you guys want a 3 switch design like mine or just two?

I have a left actuator, right actuator, and a speed enable switch.

With the speed switch is enabled, the control will deploy whichever gate is turned on when the boat is between 7 and 12 mph. If the boat exceeds 12mph or falls below 7mph the gate goes back to the stowed position.

With the speed switch disabled, the control will deploy the gates as soon as the respective gate's switch is turned on. It will stow the gate when it's switch is turned off.

It might be simpler to make the switch harness just 3 wires so you wire it to a rocker switch (left or right) and the control deploys the gate when the speed is between 7 and 12 mph.

What do you think this thing should cost? That will give me an idea what I can do with it. IMO I'd rather pay a bit more and get a better, more reliably built box with connectors and decent wire. Thoughts?

My vote is for :

1. A watertight box (Pelican would be fine) with the switches mounted on top

2. Actuator connector cables coming out of the box (through a rubber sealed hole?) and terminated with the same type of connector that comes on the end of the actuator cable (can't remember the name of the connector). Harness can be pretty short as I already have the extension cable on each actuator that is terminating under the dash.

3. Power wiring harness & GPS cable exiting the box through some type of rubber sealed hole

What would we need to get GPS data to it? I already have the Nautic Laugic NL4, so it would be great if I could somehow tie into that rather than have a separate GPS puck.

I am not sure what this would even cost, but I would be willing to pony up $500 for something like this. Is that way too low?

This is awesome. I really hope we can make this happen!

Edited October 24, 2012 by Tao of Wake

[martinarcher]

The switches on the box top are an interesting idea, but keep in mind the control box will be fairly large to fit everything (controller, relays, terminal strips, voltage converters, etc). I think it might be better to have a wire going outside you can run to switches. Thoughts?

I'll look at enclosures and see what I can find that might be a bit more cost effective than a Pelican case. Unless we use panel mount connectors that are IP67 rated I don't think we'll ever be fully water tight. I can look into that if you guys want. It would make swapping the control box out a snap if need be, but connectors would add a bit of cost, probably $30-40 per unit.

The other thing connectors would allow is custom cabling solutions. For example Tao could have a cable that goes from the connector on the controller to the Deutsch connector on the actuators. Cervelo could have just a field installable connector that would let him do his own cable solution. Both would keep the control box the same.

[High Altitude]

_{I would prefer a box (watertight not needed) with leads coming out so I could then add the switches right next to my throttle. The actuator connector cables could have connectors or could be bare as it's not really important to me. Same with the power harness as that is simple as well. It's really the GPS logic unit that is the key. I need something that would read GPS speed and send a signal to the appropriate actuator at the appropriate time. I like the idea of a three switch setup. The first being some sort of master and the two (or one, two way 6 pin) controlling which gate opens. Does your system have some sort of timer that takes the power off the actuator once they are fully open?}

_{I would pay the cost of parts and $60-100 an hour for labor. That might be too low as I know all of our time is worth quite a bit. Could you build something like a "simple" logic controller with GPS receiver. That's pretty much all I would need if it came with instructions as to where to wire the power, and actuator wiring. I could also fashion a little box to house the unit in.}

_{Thanks for even considering this. I apologize if I low balled your labor rate. I truly have no idea what labor is worth for something like this. If this is just a matter of programming a chip and then I put the thing together (you would have to make a parts list) I would be happy to buy the chip from you and do the rest myself. Thanks again. -Marc}

Edited October 24, 2012 by High Altitude