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nab101eg

Possible Freeze Damage

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nab101eg

Before last season, I bought a nice used '08 247 LSV. I did have some engine problems likely caused by freeze damage prior to me buying the boat - although I had the boat thoroughly checked out by a Malibu dealer prior to me buying from an individual (always some risk buying something used). We did use the ballasts numerous times and never noticed any problems. At the end of the season, I had the boat winterized (charged me right at $500 which seemed ridiculous). The winterization included a summerization and I took the boat in this past weekend. They are telling me this (from when it was winterized, but suggesting repairs now): "found freeze damage on ballast system. Center tank system feed lines broke. Center pump cannot be primed manually. In order to winterize tanks, I had to cut supply lines and pour antifreeze manually into tank. Forward bow tank - had to remove sender." I am awaiting an estimate on the recommended repairs, but he guessimated $300 range.

I know without seeing the boat, any feedback is only an educated guess, but does the above quote make sense and sound believable to yall? Being a little gun shy of this repair shop after the $500 winterization charge, I asked him if i could just use the back ballasts (thinking I could limp by on those until taking to a different shop. The service guy said that all the ballasts are tied in together and if turned on now, it would pump water into the boat. So I asked him if that would still be the case if he replaced the lines that he cut and I didnt turn on the center ballast. His answer was a bit unclear...but still implied that with it all being tied together, I would have problems. I dont understand the basics of the ballast system, so I didnt push for answers b/c I didnt feel like I knew enough to grill him. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

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99response

So for $500 they don't cover any damage to the boat caused by them not properly winterizing the boat?

All we ever did to the ballast systems up in in New England was make sure they were run dry with no standing water in the tanks.

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Lake Rat

B.O.A.T = Bust Out Another Thousand

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Bill_AirJunky

That dealer is raping you. $500 for a winterization is criminal. And if you have ballast problems now, it's because they didn't do a damn thing. Like 99 said, all I do is cycle all the ballast tanks till their dry. The mid-ship tank has all the pickups & drains in the rear of the tank so you have to be sure that you do the running dry while the boat is angled back a bit or the water will run to the front of the tank.

Edited by Bill_AirJunky

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t a

i thought all the tanks and pumps were seperate also?? doesn't each one have its own fill and drain and seperate lines??

oh yea, and find a different shop, for $500 they didn't even run the pumps dry or warranty their work? Kinda rediculous

Edited by t a

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Lance B. Johnson

Would someone PLEASE explain why dumping antifreeze in the ballast tank is part of winterization? Seems stupid to me.

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t a

incase any water is left in there, hopefully the antifreeze mixed in will keep it from freezing...I don't do it nor feel it necessary but i believe this is the reasoning

I did this with my heater only this winter because i didn't feel like i got all of the water out and didn't want to risk it

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Bill_AirJunky

Yea, each tank has it's own fill & drain pumps. I'd be willing to bet that the dealer could run the ballast dry while the boat was angled forward, then drive the boat home, park it for the winter with the boat angled backward. This would cause the water to run to the other end of the tank & no drain properly when it was winterized. Then when you parked it, the water ran back to the end of the tank with the pumps on it, and then froze there. This makes me think that it would be a good idea for ANY ONE to cycle all their ballast pumps once the boat was parked to make sure the pumps are dry.

I replaced one of the Piranha pumps this winter. The drain pump in the mid-ship ballast seized up last summer (6 yrs old) & was popping the circuit breaker. They cost $50 on Ebay, shipped.

For $300, I would wonder what parts their replacing. The fill hose is a bit of a PITA to get to but not more than about $20 or $30.

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nab101eg

The freeze damage reported was supposedly there when I took the boat in for winterization - so not caused by a poor winterization job by this shop. Like I stated, I think the boat had freeze damage prior to me purchasing - based on an engine problem that I had; however, I never noticed any problems with the ballasts. The service guy that I am dealing with says that he was unable to completely empty the center tank and therefore he "cut the supply line and manually poured in antifreeze".

Can anyone educate me on the basics of how the ballasts are connected to each other in any way - or how they work independently, if that it is the case? Feel free to direct me elsewhere.

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Lance B. Johnson

incase any water is left in there, hopefully the antifreeze mixed in will keep it from freezing...I don't do it nor feel it necessary but i believe this is the reasoning

I did this with my heater only this winter because i didn't feel like i got all of the water out and didn't want to risk it

I little frozen water in the bottom of the tank will NEVER expand enough to break the tank! Now some trapped water in a line somewhere could split the line. Just blow out the lines and be done.

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Bill_AirJunky

I guess I'm not following all of the issue. You said you used the boat without any problems last year. Had the boat winterized, and now have ballast problems. But you think the problem existed from before? So the shop that did the winterization is telling you there was a problem in the fall? And because of that, he cut the supply line? This is a hatchet job of a fix, especially for a dealer. Makes me think he couldn't get the hose off the pump, so he cut it.

I assume your talking about the center ballast? Or the is this the bow ballast?

The stock tanks are all separate. Each tank has a fill & drain pump. The center tank pumps are located inside the center hatch to the driver's left. The pump on the left side is the fill pump, right side is the drain. The fill hose goes across the top of the tank itself & comes up thru the floor inside the spotters seat near the walkthru bulkhead. Then it goes back down to a fill valve in the hull bottom in the center hatch.

I think this is right on the 247 too. This is how the last 3 or 4 boats I've played with are setup.

Edited by Bill_AirJunky

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t a

on your boat, they are not connected together as verified by AirJunky, each has its own fill hole on the bottom of the boat with a pump that goes into the tank, then there is a vent/overflow hole in the side of the boat as well as a drain hole connected to a drain pump in the bottom of the tank and pumps out the side of the boat

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t a

I little frozen water in the bottom of the tank will NEVER expand enough to break the tank! Now some trapped water in a line somewhere could split the line. Just blow out the lines and be done.

I was thinking water freezing in the pump or the lines and busting them, i know it wouldn't bust the tank lol, but leftover water could be in the tank sitting on top of where the pumps are and freeze and cause damage right? I'm just guessing here...I parked mine for the winter, then ran the pumps till they were dry...

Edited by t a

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99response

While each tank has an independent fill and drain pump, I thought the some tanks shared a common through hull pickup on some boats. e.g. one though hull to T fitting with two fill pumps.

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t a

i know some boats are like that, and definately other brands do that, my 05 vlx does have a seperate thru hull for each tank, i figured it would be similar to his 08 since they fall in the same "generation" of wakesetters

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Bill_AirJunky

I could imagine the bow & center tank using the same pickup & shutoff valve. But I think the rear are independent.

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BuFootin

Whatever you end up doing on the ballast tanks, learn to do the winterizing yourself. Not only will it save you $500 (which is a crime to charge that much) you will get to know how your boat/engine/ballasts really work. It is not a hard job even for someone with limited mechanical/engine experience.

Or, I could come an do it each fall for say.....$450.00 ? :whistle:

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Bill_AirJunky

Or, I could come an do it each fall for say.....$450.00 ? :whistle:

No kidding. I didn't see where the OP tells us where he's located, but I'd be willing to bet for $500 in airfare & beer any of us could fly there & teach him how it's done.

There is just no way the dealer is spending more than an hour to do that job. $500/hr. Damn, I'm in the wrong line of work.

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99response

No kidding. I didn't see where the OP tells us where he's located, but I'd be willing to bet for $500 in airfare & beer any of us could fly there & teach him how it's done.

There is just no way the dealer is spending more than an hour to do that job. $500/hr. Damn, I'm in the wrong line of work.

If you could fully winterize and summarize a bu with all the fluid and part changes in under an hour I'd be impressed.

Now a drain down, that's a different story.

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mwood86

So for $500 they don't cover any damage to the boat caused by them not properly winterizing the boat?

All we ever did to the ballast systems up in in New England was make sure they were run dry with no standing water in the tanks.

Ditto, that's all I do in MA. And pour a few gallons in the bilge area just in case.

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old skool malibu

Gents - most shops up here will be $450-$600 to winterize so although that sounds high it is not out of line with what is being charged. I do mine myself. Takes about 1.5 hrs max and costs me $50 in supplies ..that includes the beer. I do nothing with my tanks, just make sure the water is out.

Edited by old skool malibu

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BuFootin

If you could fully winterize and summarize a bu with all the fluid and part changes in under an hour I'd be impressed.

Now a drain down, that's a different story.

I'd take that bet.....But I would also wager that the OP did not get "all the parts changed either". I can easily change oil & filter, pull the impeller, change Trans fuild, then refill oil & check, then drain water from block in less than 1 hour. It's just not that tough once you have done it once.

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Bill_AirJunky

If you could fully winterize and summarize a bu with all the fluid and part changes in under an hour I'd be impressed.

Now a drain down, that's a different story.

I'm basing that partially off our local guy who winterizes boats for people on the side. He's an old Malibu salesman who moved on to another job a few years ago. He has kept a bunch of his old accounts & winterizes their boats for them. Some time ago he told us that he could do 3 or 4 boats in an evening after work. I believe he's draining & refilling with anti-freeze, blowing out the ballast, removing the impeller & changing the oil & filter. Then in the spring he buttons the boat back up & installs a new impeller. I texted him to see what he's charging & didn't get anything back yet. Guess he still needs a day job.

I'm sure the average guy isn't doing it that fast. But a guy who knows the boat or works on them all the time? It would be interesting to know if there is some book or rule of thumb out there for how much time it should take.

If their making $75 - $90 / hr at the shop, I guess it's taking them 3 - 4 hrs plus parts/materials? Still seems pretty high.

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G-Mack

Our dealer is $125/hr and remember they are charging boat shop retail for the all the materials betcha this is 50% more than Walmart etc and most fill the boat with 10 litres + of antifreeze, even though many of us live the drain only method. Also consider the time includes the moving of your boat in an out etc. Is it a moneymaker YES!! is i a complete rip of..that is in the eye of the beholder. I use the antifreeze method on the motor and spend time on the ballast and can't get it under 3 hours but the oil filter is a PITA. If you have the skills to winterize it is an easy save! I also like doing myself so I know t is all done the way I like it.

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Lance B. Johnson

I was thinking water freezing in the pump or the lines and busting them, i know it wouldn't bust the tank lol, but leftover water could be in the tank sitting on top of where the pumps are and freeze and cause damage right? I'm just guessing here...I parked mine for the winter, then ran the pumps till they were dry...

Right.....I am just confounded by the practice of some dealers to do this. After the O.P re-explained though it sounds like there was a more significant amount of water because the tank wouldn't drain so I get that part now? Maybe?

The ballasts should be all on separate circuits. Even so I would play it safe and fix it....mostly because someone might accidently flip the wrong switch and then fill the boat.

Running the rear ballast while the front ballast is damaged wont fill the boat though.

Edited by Ruffdog

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