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ChainSetter

Custom Surf Sack Plumbing Question

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ChainSetter

Ok, So I'm hoping someone on here can help me with this. My boat's a '07 23 LSV and I'm looking to add the Bakes custom surf sack. I wanted to avoid a ton of work in the plumbing dept. so I ordered a ballast puppy jabsco pump. I was thinking with it being reversable that it would require the least plumbing. I spoke with Paul at Bakes and he was concerned that the ballast puppy wouldn't fill the bag all the way based on the water pressure in that huge custom surf sack and might only fill half way. So my question is has anyone done this? Will it work? Fill time isn't a concern for me as we have super long channels to go through anyway.

Thanks!

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old skool malibu

Cant see it being an issue

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Fman

The ballast puppies rock, make sure and vent the bag to allow air to escape while filling... You will be happy with them, they're far more powerful than aerator pumps. The Johnson pumps are a tad bit quicker than the Jabsco . You will have no problem filling any size bag with them.

If you look at my profile page, I did a complete surf install with Johnson pumps... There are some pictures to view.

Edited by Fman

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ChainSetter

So has anyone actually used the ballast puppy for something as big as the surf sack? I just want to be sure it will fill that big of a bag. Also can I just connect to the bottom of the bag with one line in and out? The pump is reversable.

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old skool malibu

The ballast puppies rock, make sure and vent the bag to allow air to escape while filling... You will be happy with them, they're far more powerful than aerator pumps. The Johnson pumps are a tad bit quicker than the Jabsco . You will have no problem filling any size bag with them.

If you look at my profile page, I did a complete surf install with Johnson pumps... There are some pictures to view.

You dont need to vent..well first time yes then after that you are golden. No need for a vent line.

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Ronnie

You dont need to vent..well first time yes then after that you are golden. No need for a vent line.

:plus1:

IF you pay attention to your ballast system and don't overfill. I really expect that you wouldn't be able to overfill enough to damage your ballast bag (ProX) without blowing out the fittings in the bag.

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ChainSetter

So thanks for the info but has anyone actually used a set up like this with the jabsco & the surf sack or any other big ballast? I felt the same way as the above posters but I also always trust Paul from bakes and he seemed to think it would be an issue of them failing to fill it all the way?

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Murphy8166

:plus1:

IF you pay attention to your ballast system and don't overfill. I really expect that you wouldn't be able to overfill enough to damage your ballast bag (ProX) without blowing out the fittings in the bag.

Ronnie - great point. I just saved some money on my ballast bag install!!

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Fman

You dont need to vent..well first time yes then after that you are golden. No need for a vent line.

Correct, You dont "need" a vent line, but the recommended way to install the system is to vent them, and also place a one way check valve on the vent line. Without a vent line you will need to "burp" the bags manually to release all the air in the bag while filling or you will loose a substantail amount of capacity. Just my .02, but if you are going to do this, spend a little more money and do it correctly.

Surf6.jpg

Edited by Fman

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Murphy8166

If the system is airtight and sucks the sacks pancake thin, how is the air getting in the sac causing the need to burp them?

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Ronnie

Without a vent, you only burb the bags the first time you fill or anytime after you disconnect the fill line and introduce air back into the bag. The system fills without air and as Murph says they drain back pancake thin if you pull them back down that far. The factory pumps will not drain the bags that much since they can't pull a vacuum like the reversible pump will. I don't drain mine that far except for the last drain for the summer. You can't run the reversible pumps dry like the factory pumps.

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Murphy8166

Thanks Ronnie

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shawndoggy

Correct, You dont "need" a vent line, but the recommended way to install the system is to vent them, and also place a one way check valve on the vent line. Without a vent line you will need to "burp" the bags manually to release all the air in the bag while filling or you will loose a substantail amount of capacity. Just my .02, but if you are going to do this, spend a little more money and do it correctly.

Surf6.jpg

I hadn't ever thought of putting a check valve on the vent line -- that's a great idea! The margin of safety of a vent (and I have read about someone popping a bag from leaving the pump on) with the benefit of an unvented bag (suck it flat).

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yabetcha

I guess you haven't seen Stanley Wheelhouse's boat. Check out this thread with Jabscos and custom sacs.

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Fman

Without a vent, you only burb the bags the first time you fill or anytime after you disconnect the fill line and introduce air back into the bag. The system fills without air and as Murph says they drain back pancake thin if you pull them back down that far. The factory pumps will not drain the bags that much since they can't pull a vacuum like the reversible pump will. I don't drain mine that far except for the last drain for the summer. You can't run the reversible pumps dry like the factory pumps.

For the extra $50 in parts, I cant think of any reasons why you would not want to have the bags vented... just "Y" into the existing factory drain line. Its a pretty simple install, but I guess whatever works for you... :rockon:

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Murphy8166

For the extra $50 in parts, I cant think of any reasons why you would not want to have the bags vented... just "Y" into the existing factory drain line. Its a pretty simple install, but I guess whatever works for you... :rockon:

What does the check valve in the vent line do?

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shawndoggy

What does the check valve in the vent line do?

It closes the vent when you suck out the bottom with a reversible impeller pump. So you CAN suck it pancake flat, and vent it too.

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skicrave

Our customers use reversible pumps all the time with big custom bags, that's not a problem. It is an issue with aerator pumps if the system isn't setup correctly, so that may be what Paul was thinking.

PLEASE use a vent connection!!!!!! Reversible pumps DO generate enough pressure to damage the bag or the boat, so it's imperative that the bags have a vent/overflow connection. We've had more than a couple customers contact us because the system they had installed was not vented and they ended up with serious damage to the boat.

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Murphy8166

Our customers use reversible pumps all the time with big custom bags, that's not a problem. It is an issue with aerator pumps if the system isn't setup correctly, so that may be what Paul was thinking.

PLEASE use a vent connection!!!!!! Reversible pumps DO generate enough pressure to damage the bag or the boat, so it's imperative that the bags have a vent/overflow connection. We've had more than a couple customers contact us because the system they had installed was not vented and they ended up with serious damage to the boat.

Yep - it sounds like it is worth the extra $$. Ounce of prevetion worth more than a lb of cure

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skicrave

Yep, like Travis mentioned for how cheap it is, I can't think of a reason why someone wouldn't do it. It ends up being $42.47 if that's all you're buying and have to pay for shipping, the parts alone are $36.52.

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old skool malibu

Our customers use reversible pumps all the time with big custom bags, that's not a problem. It is an issue with aerator pumps if the system isn't setup correctly, so that may be what Paul was thinking.

PLEASE use a vent connection!!!!!! Reversible pumps DO generate enough pressure to damage the bag or the boat, so it's imperative that the bags have a vent/overflow connection. We've had more than a couple customers contact us because the system they had installed was not vented and they ended up with serious damage to the boat.

Never..and never will. If you pay attention you will not have a problem. I always have my rear hatch open watching my bags fill. When full I turn it off. I think you will find more people dont vent then do. I have done both and I am not a big fan of the vent.

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skicrave

That's fine if you always monitor your bags during filling, but you're definitely in the minority there; most people install an automated ballast system so they can fill the bags running at speed without having to open compartments.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but my job is to talk to people that are installing ballast systems, and I can guarantee you the number of people that don't run a vent connection is an extreme minority. Just because everyone is doing something doesn't make it right, but in this scenario, it really is the correct way to install a system for most people. Of course there are always exceptions (like if you diligently monitor the bags during filling), but there's no downside to having a dedicated vent/overflow connection if the system is designed correctly, so in most situations it doesn't make sense not to do it.

Again, if it works for you, that's great, I just want to make sure the information other people have access to is accurate so they can make informed decisions.

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shawndoggy

Never..and never will. If you pay attention you will not have a problem. I always have my rear hatch open watching my bags fill. When full I turn it off. I think you will find more people dont vent then do. I have done both and I am not a big fan of the vent.

What have been the drawbacks of the vent in your experience? Did you have a check valve on the vent?

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