Jump to content

Welcome to TheMalibuCrew!

As a guest, you are welcome to poke around and view the majority of the content that we have to offer, but in order to post, search, contact members, and get full use out of the website you will need to Register for an Account. It's free and it's easy, so don't hesitate to join the TheMalibuCrew Family today!

Sign in to follow this  
Fman

Piggybacking Fat Sacs?

Recommended Posts

Fman

I was considering adding another 400 lb sac to the boat and running a longer fill line off the overflow of the first 750 lb bag in the ski locker/seat desired for surfing. I need a little more midship weight on port/star side and though it would be great to able to place the 400 lb bag anywhere in the boat with a long fill line attached to the first 750 lb sac. Once the 750 filled it would start dumping into the 400 lb bag. Draining, I think the Johnson would be able to syphon water out of the 400 and 750 with a little assistance.

Has anyone tried this? I am using the Johnson impeller pumps to fill and drain.

Share this post


Link to post
liljohn

I tried it. It is painfully slow and will not drain. 30 days later I busted out a drill and plumed it in on its own pumps.

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

I tried it. It is painfully slow and will not drain. 30 days later I busted out a drill and plumed it in on its own pumps.

Were you using Johnson/JABSCO pumps? Or aerator pumps?

Share this post


Link to post
old skool malibu

I was considering adding another 400 lb sac to the boat and running a longer fill line off the overflow of the first 750 lb bag in the ski locker/seat desired for surfing. I need a little more midship weight on port/star side and though it would be great to able to place the 400 lb bag anywhere in the boat with a long fill line attached to the first 750 lb sac. Once the 750 filled it would start dumping into the 400 lb bag. Draining, I think the Johnson would be able to syphon water out of the 400 and 750 with a little assistance.

Has anyone tried this? I am using the Johnson impeller pumps to fill and drain.

Why dont you add one of these if you have an Impeller style pump... http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1297

Edited by old skool malibu

Share this post


Link to post
liljohn

Were you using Johnson/JABSCO pumps? Or aerator pumps?

Aerator pumps. I connected the two bags just as you metioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

Aerator pumps. I connected the two bags just as you metioned.

Aerator pumps are terrible for draining, especially with bags. They are decent with hard tanks, but they dont self prime, and will not actually pull water like an impeller pump.

Anyone else tried this with impeller pumps?

Share this post


Link to post
SkiZilla

I too have been thinking about trying something like this as well. I was planning on using a Johnson style impeller pump and a couple of check valves to direct water where I want it to go. When filling the 400 lb will fill first, then the overflow will go into the 750. When the 750 is full it will vent out the side of the boat. Draining the pump will pull water from both bags off of the lower bag ports (separated by a check to allow them both to drain but only fill through the 400). I am thinking of installing another check valve on the vent line to ensure the pump sucks both bags nice and flat. Have a look at the plumbing diagram.......I think it should work nicely but need for a fair amount of snow and ice to disappear before I try it.

6749720951_2b793cd737.jpg

IMG-20120123-00031 by FlickFest, on Flickr

Share this post


Link to post
toomuchhype

I have all of the supplies to install a similar piggy back system this Spring. Only difference is I will be using 1 aerator pump to fill the 2 sacs (via overflow). Then I will use two aerator pumps to drain (1 drain pump per sac).

I started this thread (). The feedback made me realize that 1 aerator pump wouldn't drain both sacs if connected.

But it makes sense to me that 1 impeller pump could drain/fill both sacs. Just don't have any real-world proof to back it up.

I can also envision this taking a long time to fill (for both of us) and a long time to drain (for you). But I figure if it avoids drilling thru-hulls, I'm ok with waiting.

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

I have all of the supplies to install a similar piggy back system this Spring. Only difference is I will be using 1 aerator pump to fill the 2 sacs (via overflow). Then I will use two aerator pumps to drain (1 drain pump per sac).

I started this thread (). The feedback made me realize that 1 aerator pump wouldn't drain both sacs if connected.

But it makes sense to me that 1 impeller pump could drain/fill both sacs. Just don't have any real-world proof to back it up.

I can also envision this taking a long time to fill (for both of us) and a long time to drain (for you). But I figure if it avoids drilling thru-hulls, I'm ok with waiting.

I had less than desirable experiences with using aerator pumps with bags, they seem to be much better with hard tanks. For some reason they seem to loose priming when draining bags, and I even had issues filling at times. After using both, I will always go with impeller pumps to fill and drain. I think the impeller pumps will pull hard enough to suck the water out of both bags, and the diverter valve would be a great addition.

Edited by Fman

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

Why dont you add one of these if you have an Impeller style pump... http://www.bakesonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=1297

Only problem with these is they are not 1" fittings, not sure if they make them in 1", or at least they look like 3/4"... maybe I am mistaken. These would be a good idea if they make them in 1".

BallastValveLG.jpg

Edited by Fman

Share this post


Link to post
shawndoggy

having a coil of 1" ballast hose in the boat is going to be a major PITA and take up valuable storage room. And people will be tripping over it once it's out. I'd just get three fat bricks and a piranah pump. You can move 'em around in the boat when you want to, and they drain just fine without a pump by unscrewing them and aiming them overboard.

I appreciate your theory, but I think in practice it'd be less than ideal.

Share this post


Link to post
liljohn

Paul at Bakes can get that Y valve in the 1 inch. Give him an email.

Share this post


Link to post
dalt1

I too have been thinking about trying something like this as well. I was planning on using a Johnson style impeller pump and a couple of check valves to direct water where I want it to go. When filling the 400 lb will fill first, then the overflow will go into the 750. When the 750 is full it will vent out the side of the boat. Draining the pump will pull water from both bags off of the lower bag ports (separated by a check to allow them both to drain but only fill through the 400). I am thinking of installing another check valve on the vent line to ensure the pump sucks both bags nice and flat. Have a look at the plumbing diagram.......I think it should work nicely but need for a fair amount of snow and ice to disappear before I try it.

6749720951_2b793cd737.jpg

IMG-20120123-00031 by FlickFest, on Flickr

scan0001.jpg

This is 1 way I have set mine up using stock pump and lower ballast. But I don't have the extra tube Y'd off from the top of the lower tank. I thought about doing it that way to eliminate the water exiting from the drain line while filling after the top tank gets more than 350 lbs of water in it. After top bag gets equal weight in it as below, water seems to take path of least resistance and that is out the drain pump line. I now have a ball shutoff valve in the drain pump line and just flip it closed while filling.

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

having a coil of 1" ballast hose in the boat is going to be a major PITA and take up valuable storage room. And people will be tripping over it once it's out. I'd just get three fat bricks and a piranah pump. You can move 'em around in the boat when you want to, and they drain just fine without a pump by unscrewing them and aiming them overboard.

I appreciate your theory, but I think in practice it'd be less than ideal.

I like your idea with the fat bricks, with the selector valve it might be nice to have the hose available coiled in the ski locker. Once needed it could be diverted to the fill hose, used to fill the bricks, then put away. Could also be used to drain the bricks out after they need to be put away. With the bricks you would only need one fill hose, only about 5-6' long, just to use to fill them up. Might be less of a hassle than having to use a phiranha or tsunami pump hanging over the side of the boat.

I already have the Johnson pumps plumbed in, so for me, its a simple selector valve addition, and a few feet of hose and I am good to go.

Edited by Fman

Share this post


Link to post
shawndoggy

I like your idea with the fat bricks, with the selector valve it might be nice to have the hose available coiled in the ski locker. Once needed it could be diverted to the fill hose, used to fill the bricks, then put away. Could also be used to drain the bricks out after they need to be put away. With the bricks you would only need one fill hose, only about 5-6' long, just to use to fill them up. Might be less of a hassle than having to use a phiranha or tsunami pump hanging over the side of the boat.

I was hoping someone here might have done either of these ideas. Thanks for your input.

With the bricks (I have two) it's easier to empty them by hand than with a pump. Just lift them up to your ample sunpad, aim them off the boat and unscrew the top cap. The water shoots out and the sack can be aimed with the handles. If you are agro you can do the top cap and a bottom cap for maximum spillage. I just put 'em up on the sun pad and then turn the job over to the kids while my wife and I do other "end of the day" stuff like collecting the towels, etc.

having a dedicated fill hose (that you could put away) might be pretty sweet though.

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

With the bricks (I have two) it's easier to empty them by hand than with a pump. Just lift them up to your ample sunpad, aim them off the boat and unscrew the top cap. The water shoots out and the sack can be aimed with the handles. If you are agro you can do the top cap and a bottom cap for maximum spillage. I just put 'em up on the sun pad and then turn the job over to the kids while my wife and I do other "end of the day" stuff like collecting the towels, etc.

having a dedicated fill hose (that you could put away) might be pretty sweet though.

I just checked the pricing on those fat bricks, $99/ea is pretty reasonable. Looks like you are using two for surfing? Does it make a noticeable difference? Thats about 300 lbs?

Edited by Fman

Share this post


Link to post
shawndoggy

In the bu yes; mb not so much.

Share this post


Link to post
old skool malibu

Only problem with these is they are not 1" fittings, not sure if they make them in 1", or at least they look like 3/4"... maybe I am mistaken. These would be a good idea if they make them in 1".

BallastValveLG.jpg

Nope - 3/4 or 1" see description from Bakes and Wavemakers

Product Description:

A Simple and compact "Y" valve that saves money and installation time by eliminating other fittings/points of failure.

Specifications:

1 Inch "Y" Valve

3/4'' Hose Adapters (use with 3/4 I.D. ballast Hose)

http://www.wakemakers.com/bosworth-y-valve.html

Use anywhere you want to share a single connection to fill and/or drain two separate bags. We include hose barbs for use with 3/4" hose, or you can remove them and connection 1" hose directly into the body of the valve.

Edited by old skool malibu

Share this post


Link to post
old skool malibu

Aerator pumps are terrible for draining, especially with bags. They are decent with hard tanks, but they dont self prime, and will not actually pull water like an impeller pump.

Anyone else tried this with impeller pumps?

Disagree. I had aerator pumps on my 2 750's and they worked just fine. No issues as all. I have run both styles now.

Share this post


Link to post
old skool malibu

I too have been thinking about trying something like this as well. I was planning on using a Johnson style impeller pump and a couple of check valves to direct water where I want it to go. When filling the 400 lb will fill first, then the overflow will go into the 750. When the 750 is full it will vent out the side of the boat. Draining the pump will pull water from both bags off of the lower bag ports (separated by a check to allow them both to drain but only fill through the 400). I am thinking of installing another check valve on the vent line to ensure the pump sucks both bags nice and flat. Have a look at the plumbing diagram.......I think it should work nicely but need for a fair amount of snow and ice to disappear before I try it.

6749720951_2b793cd737.jpg

IMG-20120123-00031 by FlickFest, on Flickr

Just a Y valve is all you need. On the links provided above assuming you are using an impeller style pump.

Share this post


Link to post
Fman

Disagree. I had aerator pumps on my 2 750's and they worked just fine. No issues as all. I have run both styles now.

On my Supra I ran the Tsunami 800 aerator pumps directly off the bag and below the bag in the bilge area (stock from Supra) and they never seemed to consistently work properly. Priming issues seemed to be the biggest problem. After using the impeller pumps, for me I will never go back, the impeller pumps literally drain the bags pancake thin and the install is so much cleaner and very simple.

Share this post


Link to post
SkiZilla

Just a Y valve is all you need. On the links provided above assuming you are using an impeller style pump.

Thanks for the idea, I appreciate the input! You really seam to like this little selector valve.......is there a kick back involved? :)

The idea behind what I am trying to do is fill two bags on the same side for surfing. We only use the extra ballast for surfing and on one side only so they are both either full or both empty. I want to be able to flip a switch and relax until I hear water overflowing out the side of the boat and then go; without the hustle and bustle of lifting seat cushions and digging around in ski lockers filling and monitoring bags. My hope is that the draining of the bags will be as effortless and that the pitch change from the pump is noticeable enough to indicate when empty, otherwise I may have to complicate things some more and split the drain to above the waterline as well (I'm having enough trouble convincing myself to drill holes in the side and bottom of my boat as it is!)

Perhaps I am over thinking this one but I'm pretty sure what I have sketched out will work as I want it to......time will tell assuming I can summon the courage to pop holes in my boat.

Share this post


Link to post
old skool malibu

Thanks for the idea, I appreciate the input! You really seam to like this little selector valve.......is there a kick back involved? :)

The idea behind what I am trying to do is fill two bags on the same side for surfing. We only use the extra ballast for surfing and on one side only so they are both either full or both empty. I want to be able to flip a switch and relax until I hear water overflowing out the side of the boat and then go; without the hustle and bustle of lifting seat cushions and digging around in ski lockers filling and monitoring bags. My hope is that the draining of the bags will be as effortless and that the pitch change from the pump is noticeable enough to indicate when empty, otherwise I may have to complicate things some more and split the drain to above the waterline as well (I'm having enough trouble convincing myself to drill holes in the side and bottom of my boat as it is!)

Perhaps I am over thinking this one but I'm pretty sure what I have sketched out will work as I want it to......time will tell assuming I can summon the courage to pop holes in my boat.

Nope ..but I had Gord at Wizard install a system on my buddies VTX using this valve and it worked fantastic. I will be getting a similiar system that Gord will be doing in a month or two in my new 2012 VTX except going with 3 Jabsco's and 5 plug and play connections with 2 diverter valves. Why dont you give him a ring and have him do it for you?

Edited by old skool malibu

Share this post


Link to post
old skool malibu

On my Supra I ran the Tsunami 800 aerator pumps directly off the bag and below the bag in the bilge area (stock from Supra) and they never seemed to consistently work properly. Priming issues seemed to be the biggest problem. After using the impeller pumps, for me I will never go back, the impeller pumps literally drain the bags pancake thin and the install is so much cleaner and very simple.

Interesting..lots of crew members have Aeroator pumps on their aftermarket bags and have no issues. Guess it depends on the install. I know all Paul @ Bakes systems are aerator.

Share this post


Link to post
Cdoogles

Although not a lot of people do it, there is a hybrid alternative to adding dedicated pumps and just piggy backing. The biggest hold up for most people on adding dedicated fill and drain pumps is drilling holes. If you want, you can use T connections on the bilge intakes for the existing ballast system and use Y connections on the vent and drain hoses to avoid drilling any holes. Personally, drilling holes isn't the scary part, but every thru-hull penetration is expensive due to the additional hardware required for each one.

My last system was dedicated pumps but I am contemplating trying one with 2 Johnson reversible pumps, and no new thru-hulls. I will probably use the rear drain plug to put in a T valve for the intake and drain, and then Y into existing vent hoses so that I don't pop the sacks and dont have to live the rear hatches to see how full they are. Just brain storming at this point...

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...