Hard Core Slalom Boats

[HB Skier]

I for one am glad that wakeboard boats are king. I hope that it keeps the price down in the used market for DDs when I upsize to a minivan SLxi or 209.

I sure wish there was another short term for V-Drives. Every time I read comments like,

"So, VDs are good for the industry and the rest of us, so long as the manufacturers don't forget where they came from"

and

"And your wife is demanding a VD right now"

I just can't keep from cracking up. Reference to the medical acronym.

Edited January 17, 2006 by HB Skier

[aneal000]

Can I edit my post and take out the "Sorry..."

[VinRLX]

Can I edit my post and take out the "Sorry..."

Tony's getting funnier in his old age. I LIKE it!

[aneal000]

It's a good thing I like you guys - all you slalom skiers that is, especially that GalaxyToad guy, I mean come on, anyone willing to put nitrous on a CBR1100XX has my vote - even if he's not been converted yet!

[Boatman]

No ranting here...just opinions....with all due respect to the opinions of those who have posted above

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the "Vdrive wave" has to catch up to the number of DDs that have been produced over the years...and they have a long way to go! Right now, there are more DDs than VDs in existence, so, the problem is scarcity, because there really aren't many "old" VDs. IF you want a VD, you have to look at something new or relatively new. Until there are more older VDs we will never know the true percentages of who wants what layout, because the "ripples" won't have settled. There are a lot of people, who are not hard core riders that "need" a VD, who are buying VDs simply because they are a fad and the most expensive. Not everyone...but some, nonetheless. Only time will tell whether these former "Snobs" (an affectionate accronym for Ski Nautique open bow owers" stick with the VD's or whether DDs will see a resurgence. There is no doubt that it is unlikely, but nonetheless, we have to wait and see.

Lets look at the OB barefoot market. Back in the day, Centurion, MC, bu, and some others made outboard barefoot boats. Inboards became increasingly able to provide the speed and wakes for barefooters (not the equivalent, but better than ever before). As a result, because peopel could buy a family friendly inboard, without propellers, noise, and maintenance issues, but still get quality wakes, there was no more market for those boats. (However, they do have a cult-type following). Now, bigger DDs and VDs are able to make at least very recreational ski wakes. Heck, I have said before and stand by my statement that a SSVLX "diamond" skis better than a SV23 DD non-diamond. Thus, people can buy boats that are more family friendly, and frankly, ski as good as any boat in production in the early 90s. As a result, skiability of bigger boats has taken away the true ski boat market, much like the ski boats did to the outboard barefoot boats in the late 90s. I don't see it as much that wakeboard boats are taking over ski boats, but that ski boats can be bigger and more family friendly than ever before, and still give the quality of ride as a SN2001. In essence, the boats today are doing what the inboards of the mid 90s did to barefoot outboards. They simply open up the possibilities and do more things good.

A Vdrive IS more expensive to build than a DD. It IS more difficult to build, takes longer, and more components are needed such as the actual VD. Take the I vs Vride for example.

I have taken some righteous falls off my feet and ski. However, I have gone under the knife from only one thing behind the boat...wakeboarding...3 times. I take nothing away from good skiers pushing it, but c'mon, if you're not getting hurt every day on the board, then you're not pushing it. Not to say that taking it easy on a board is bad, but that mindset is completely not the standard for wakeboarding. Overall, wakeboarders go home bruised and broken much more than swervers. Reason #1, you can progress in slalom without falls. You can't do anything on a wakeboard that does not require crashes to learn. That being said, wakeboarding IS harder on the body, BUT I would say that picking up a new pass is tougher than picking up a new flip. Just more of my rambling incoherent.

I am curious. You state that the SSVLX "Diamond" skis better than a SV23 DD "non-Diamond. My 94 Echelon has the SV23 and it seems inconceivable to me that the VD skis better. Is the wake actually flatter? Softer? Less turbulant? I have never skied behind a VD so I have no concept of what it's like. Also, what about barefooting? I'm trying to figure this all out as when I get a new boat it needs to slalom well, have a good wakeboarding wake, and be "footable'. Actually, I'd like a RLXI but might be better off with a SLXI. Thanks for your input.

[aneal000]

It's a good thing I like you guys - all you slalom skiers that is, especially that GalaxyToad guy, I mean come on, anyone willing to put nitrous on a CBR1100XX has my vote - even if he's not been converted yet!

DAMN THAT WAS A FUN BIKE!!!!! You guys are killing me. UWSkier put up that snowmobile video, now you just had to bring up the bike. I have made it all the way to step 5 of my 12 step adrenaline junkie plan and you guys are determined to send me back to the beginning. That's it, if I don't get some intervention soon I'm going to build a big a$$ methanol burning blower motor....

I know what you're saying! I just watched the video and had a grin wider than my face the entire time, I also gotta admit I was a little worried he was getting spanked on the last section of the video when they were out on the flats with his buddy out in front. I was like - you can take him, you can take him!!! I was able to bring my adrenaline levels back into the "normal" zone after a 5 hour ride last Sat. on the 4fiddy - that would be my KTM 450! Fun bike! I did recently sell the Ducati so I know what it's like to miss some old toys! I know this isin't helping, but I think you need to build you a big a$$ methanol burning blower motor!

[SGY]

GT, don't forget to leave a little room for nitro methane. Love the smell. Yes sir!

[aneal000]

Every time you do this I learn something.

That's just payback for all that roller grind angle stuff you taught us way back when...

[skisix@38]

I have taken some righteous falls off my feet and ski. However, I have gone under the knife from only one thing behind the boat...wakeboarding...3 times. I take nothing away from good skiers pushing it, but c'mon, if you're not getting hurt every day on the board, then you're not pushing it. Not to say that taking it easy on a board is bad, but that mindset is completely not the standard for wakeboarding. Overall, wakeboarders go home bruised and broken much more than swervers. Reason #1, you can progress in slalom without falls. You can't do anything on a wakeboard that does not require crashes to learn. That being said, wakeboarding IS harder on the body, BUT I would say that picking up a new pass is tougher than picking up a new flip. Just more of my rambling incoherent.

John,

You have obviously not pushed slalom hard enough to say the above. For instance try going from 72mph to 0 in 3ft, no air bag, no nothing. That's committment. Or, if that's ordinary, try falling at the wake and skipping and bouncing 20 ft past the turn ball. I've broken handles, ropes and ripped two vests off my body- literally ripped the side seam. I'm not trying to one up anyone, just pointing out that a person can "go all out" swerving.

[JohnDoe]

I have taken some righteous falls off my feet and ski. However, I have gone under the knife from only one thing behind the boat...wakeboarding...3 times. I take nothing away from good skiers pushing it, but c'mon, if you're not getting hurt every day on the board, then you're not pushing it. Not to say that taking it easy on a board is bad, but that mindset is completely not the standard for wakeboarding. Overall, wakeboarders go home bruised and broken much more than swervers. Reason #1, you can progress in slalom without falls. You can't do anything on a wakeboard that does not require crashes to learn. That being said, wakeboarding IS harder on the body, BUT I would say that picking up a new pass is tougher than picking up a new flip. Just more of my rambling incoherent.

John,

You have obviously not pushed slalom hard enough to say the above. For instance try going from 72mph to 0 in 3ft, no air bag, no nothing. That's committment. Or, if that's ordinary, try falling at the wake and skipping and bouncing 20 ft past the turn ball. I've broken handles, ropes and ripped two vests off my body- literally ripped the side seam. I'm not trying to one up anyone, just pointing out that a person can "go all out" swerving.

skisix,

I was hoping you would see my comments! While it is true that I have never broken the 70 mph mark on a slalom ski, I would venture to say that no one has. I'm speaking off memory here, but I believe Wade Cox was clocked and I think he only got up to 55, on a 32 off pass?

That being said, I am in no way saying that that feels good getting ejected on your offside at the wakes...however...does every ski set have a spine-realigning fall? Wakeboarders, on a regular basis, get pounded...every day, in fact. I'm sure Jennifer Leachman's fall was terrible, but wakeboarders, as a whole, take much worse regular beatings. For me, I can no longer wakeboard due to the surgeries mending my joints, but I can still slalom and take some whippings. Both are high risk high reward sports, but my response was merely to make the point that wakeboarding is not easy, and certainly not easy on the body. I think I'm starting to see where galaxy was going...and that was muscle exertion on the ski, an argument which I would have to agree with. I thought he was going more towards a fall comparo, and while some may disagree, I think wakeboarding is twice as punishing. All that said, I would trade every move I ever had to clear 32, cuz it is too painful for me to ride anymore!

In response to someone above asking for VD vs DD comparo, I should have been more specific. An "older" echelon/response without the diamond does ski nicer than any VD IMO. My comments were based off the Iride or ride Xti, which is the only SV23 non-diamond still produced that I am aware of (if not, I'm sure someone will correct me...quite quickly ). Those boats are bigger and heavier than the older response/echelon. The diamond VDs wakes are bigger at slower speeds, but at 34+, they flatten out VERY nicely and drive very well with the gorilla fins. They are very soft and crossable. If you're after footing wakes, don't go to the diamond hull. The sportster and pre-diamond response/ecehlons are the best there have ever been (I should add sportster there as well). However, I have heard that a new non-diamond VD has nice wakes. The problem with going to a diamond hulled BF boat is that the reverse chines "lift" the back of the boat more, moving the propwash higher, thus causing more turbulence. A VLX with the hammerhead, should be a nice footing boat, as the bow would still ride relatively high. Remember the granddaddy of inboard barefoot boats went to a Vdrive setup, although has since been shown the door (barefoot nautique). I'm sure that opinion will draw some criticism, but there is a give and take between turbulence and wake shape in Malibu's lineup. Feathery and crossable wakes were what the diamond was after, not necessarily the mix for ideal barefoot wakes. That said, they are ALL superior to anything from MC or CC.

[JohnDoe]

Ski six, I don't doubt that you "earned" your way to your level, I'm just standing up for the mental and physical aspects of lining up for a 10th straight double up, knowing you're gonna get worked blind from 10 feet up...and some new hot chick just got in the boat that you're tryin to impress...thats some pressure...I'm glad I'm now married and don't have to worry about stuff like that anymore!

I don't want a vest ripped off me either skiing or riding! Peace.

[MoonDawg]

....It's pretty sweet. I'm going to go find it and get someone to convert it to .wmv

I can convert that for you if you cannot find anyone closer...It will be worth it just to see the video

[skisix@38]

I don't reccomend the vest ripping crashes to anyone, hard lessons learned and part of the reason I enjoy passing the things I've learned on to others.

I remember that thing on Wade and even at 41off he was only reaching speeds of 58 mph or so. That was in control though, Wade is a very pretty skier and always makes the pass look easy, I haven't gotten that far yet. I don't know that I've reached 72 or 68 or 75 MPH but I know I can get lean locked off the ball and it feels a little like what a f-18 carrier lauch looks like.

I will say that wakeboarding is more jarring and has routine high impacts from landing. In that regard, you are correct WB'ing is more punishing to the body and I already contended that it's a great workout. I don't care to repeat any pull outs on my wakeboard at 20mph where I catch the edge and plant my face just like I don't care to skip for 55 ft across the water.

Ski six, I don't doubt that you "earned" your way to your level, I'm just standing up for the mental and physical aspects of lining up for a 10th straight double up, knowing you're gonna get worked blind from 10 feet up...and some new hot chick just got in the boat that you're tryin to impress...thats some pressure...I'm glad I'm now married and don't have to worry about stuff like that anymore!

I don't want a vest ripped off me either skiing or riding! Peace.

[aneal000]

I was trying to draw a correlation in my earlier post to the level at which one rides/pushes themself to the level of crashes/pain one could expect to experience. I think we all know ski6@38 is a pretty good skier and according to his posts he's taken some brutal falls. With the exception of the noobie-catch-an-edge-learning-to-wakeboard manuever wakeboaring can be pretty subtle and painless, if - and I say if you are just riding around the lake. But as JohnDoe points out we typically have external forces pushing us to "try a new trick" even if it's something esay like W2W, but I've seen compound fractures of the leg - bones poking through skin, 4" gash on the head from fins, etc, from people simply trying a W2W. It can go either way really. I know we all want to think our respective sport is the worst, but reality is we are all being drug behind a boat. It's dangerous no matter how we look at it. If your pushing the envelope in any sport at any level you run the risk of injury - just look how many pages the "officail injury thread" is up to!

Edited January 18, 2006 by aneal000

[BillFooter]

This is an interesting thread. We all read about and look at the type of boat that 'We' want. I did not read any of the articles in the Waterski BBG if the boat wake was only rated at under 25 mph. That means it is not a boat that is of interest to me. So I did not read very many of the boat reviews. I only read the reviews of boats that had wakes rated for skiing. I am a barefooter and I am disappointed that NONE of the reviews have anything to do with the boats capability for that.

That being said, it seems to me that all of the tournament boat manufacturers are only interested in building what I consider big ol tub of a boat. That does not mean that the boat is no good, it just means that I have ZERO interest in it.

Very few of the true slalom boat owners can run the slalom course. I admit that I am not a very good slalom skiier. About 28-30 mph at 15 off is all I am capable of. So bottom line I don't run the course much better with my Response than I did with my I/O years ago.

Wakeboarding? I just don't have any interest in doing that. I have tried it and I am not any good at all at it. I think it is much easier than slalom, if you are comparing a poor wakeboarder (me) to a mediocre slalom skier (me again). I can board just as well behind a 16' Bayliner as I can a $80k wakeboard rig. That can be said for about 90% of the wakeboarders that I see. I do like to watch a really good rider. They do pretty cool stuff.

Barefooting. Now that I am pretty fair at. The wake quality from the boat make a BIG difference to me. There are tricks that I can do behind a barefoot boat that I could not do behind others (or at least not as easily or well).

Sooooo, when I read a BBG magazine or go to the boat shows, there is not much of interest to me. Mostly just a bunch of big ol tubs.

[doughickey]

This deserves a new Pole or 2. WHAT we use our boats for..... That's what might determine the kind of boat we want/NEED.

For example, I ski, take the kids (hate to say it) boarding, and we use the boat to tour the lake and go for rides. My '98 Response LX meets the first need fantasticly, the second need is fine (for now), but isn't so good for the touring thing. All depends on what % I do of each, and at what intensity.

So.... I'm about to decide if it's time to move up. Do I upgrade to a Response LXI for similar slalom wakes, get a wedgie and sacks for boarding, and enjoy the slightly bigger walk-around space. Or......do I get a bigger marine "mini-van" and max out on the touring thing, and have the slalom suffer.

Done a lot of soul searching.

My solution = WHy try and cram all my needs into ONE boat.

I'm keeping my beloved DD Response. I'm going to locate a used pontoon boat this summer for the touring thing. I just can't give up my pure slalom machine. As for the kids and their desire for boarding. Well, sorry kiddies, when you grow up you can buy your own boat. In the mean time, when you use my boat and my skis and my boards and my ropes and my gas (etc etc etc), you get to comprimise more than me. Want bigger wakes.... go buy a fat sack.

Case in point. Just got back from the Toronto Boat Show. I only looked at DD skiboats, and Party Boats. The 2 ends of the spectrum. Never even glanced at the bigger wake-monsters. Don't hit my radar screen.

So Malibu.... how about a Pontoon Boat??? With us aging Baby Boomers, there WILL be a huge market if it's busines you want. Something with extra features for carrying skis and supplies for the DD skiboats we'll be towing around???

[88Skier]

Doug, I use my boats the same way you use yours, only I love touring in mine as much as anything else, and I'm on a big lake. To me nothing rides and drives like a ski boat.

I was a part owner in a pontoon for quite awhile and they are a good way to go. You'll definately get more adults out with you on long rides and you don't have to worry about hitting anything with it or banging it up. Make sure you will use it often though, otherwise you are better off to rent if they rent them on your lake.

[VinRLX]

Good call, Doug. And I'm with 88 on the touring ride--love just taking a lap in the machine. More and older folks are definitely more comfy on the barge. . .it's a different experience.

[MoonDawg]

....It's pretty sweet. I'm going to go find it and get someone to convert it to .wmv

I can convert that for you if you cannot find anyone closer...It will be worth it just to see the video

Man we need to do lunch. I still owe you a build sheet.

I am up for lunch any day. I have no life ... just put in my 8 and go home.

Is that video soundtrack in Dolby stereo? That burn-out will really sound great on my big screen setup. I just need to find some burning rubber scented candles

[doughickey]

To VIN and 88. Hope you guys don't think I'm heading for a rocking chair. The RLX is here to stay.

The one thing I really missed when I moved from my 200 merc outboard to my RLX was the "wind-in-the-face" feeling. The RLX cockpit is designed to protect the driver from the elements.... and it does a great job. However, when we're "touring", I just don't get the "outdoor" feeling. If I have kids up front in the bow, I can't really "talk" to them because of the windshield. If I leave the center part of the windshield open, then I'm afraid of springing the hinges (my ski mirror is mounted on the center glass) when we hit any rollers. My passengers in the spotter seat are complaining they are always looking backwards where we've been vs where we're going. And then we have the rest of the crew way at the back.

Plus, there are parts of my lake where I would NOT take my RLX with it's 20" of draft (oh no, I've re-started the draft discussion.... maybe we'll pull Tom out of hiding with this one).... but I would drive a pontoon boat to. Like pulling on to a sandy beach...... bringing the barb-b-q..... sleeping in a tent on the party boat.... all things I would never do in my RLX.

So.... the party boat does not replace the RLX. It actually lets me keep it's hours down on dedicated single purpose ski/board fun. The party boat just increases my on-the-water time.

Since I'm retired...... well not quite..... I've just re-careered myself into a teacher..... I have 9 weeks off in the summer..... so get to play all day long each summer. Adding a second boat with touring capability seemed to be a better way to spend/invest/waste $10K for my summer toys and increase my water time.

Edited January 19, 2006 by doughickey

[djustice]

I dont get why skiers dislike wakeboarding so much. Why do skiers resent the fact that wakeboarding is becoming more popular than skiing. I dont want to get into the argument of which one is harder or more challenging, both are difficult and easy depending on what you are trying to do. I quit skiing because it is boring to me, you cut left and then you cut right and then you cut back left. The only progression is shortening the rope. With wakeboarding there are several different directions I can go, I can work on inverts, spins, grabs, adding style to simple tricks, the possibilities are endless. Its not that I am rebelling against old timers, I respect a good slalom run as much as the next guy, its just that wakeboarding is more fun to me. One thing we all can agree on though, is tubers ruin glass for all of us. Just making a joke family guys with rugrats, I realize I dont own the water. By the way, we will be picking up our 06 vlx in april, looking forward to joining the malibu family.

[aneal000]

I dont get why skiers dislike wakeboarding so much. Why do skiers resent the fact that wakeboarding is becoming more popular than skiing. I dont want to get into the argument of which one is harder or more challenging, both are difficult and easy depending on what you are trying to do. I quit skiing because it is boring to me, you cut left and then you cut right and then you cut back left. The only progression is shortening the rope. With wakeboarding there are several different directions I can go, I can work on inverts, spins, grabs, adding style to simple tricks, the possibilities are endless. Its not that I am rebelling against old timers, I respect a good slalom run as much as the next guy, its just that wakeboarding is more fun to me. One thing we all can agree on though, is tubers ruin glass for all of us. Just making a joke family guys with rugrats, I realize I dont own the water. By the way, we will be picking up our 06 vlx in april, looking forward to joining the malibu family.

Welcome to the site and congrats on the new boat! Nice first post btw.

As far as I can tell their are two reasons, to answer your question. Frist it is because wakeboarders are as bad as tubers or fishermen or wallies when it comes to messing us smooth water that skiers like. This is of course a toung-in-cheek comment, because to most skiers surprise wakeboarders actually like glass and butter just as much as skiers - at least the guys I ride with do, oh and just because it can de done in rough water doesn't mean it's as enjoyable, after all you can slalom in rough water too.

Secondly... ah I'll be nice.

[88Skier]

This is of course a toung-in-cheek comment, because to most skiers surprise wakeboarders actually like glass and butter just as much as skiers - at least the guys I ride with do, oh and just because it can de done in rough water doesn't mean it's as enjoyable, after all you can slalom in rough water too.

Secondly... ah I'll be nice.

But you ruin that glass with monster wakes. It's like a lobster boat just went by.

[JohnDoe]

This is complete generalization, but proves extremely true in my locale. Skiers, on the whole, have been around boats, ropes, and skis, generally speaking, for a long time. They know how to use the same water with another boat, they know not to do powerturns, they know how to drive and be courteous to other people trying to use the same water. They know how to safely retrun to a downed skier and know how to take turns on the water. Enter wakeboarding. The surge of WB boat sales and ease of learning to wakeboard are putting a lot of people on the water that have no idea what the heck they are doing. As a result, 2 wakeboard boats driven by people who don't know what they're doing can ruin the entire lake. Thus, skiers see that and blame it on the "wakeboarders"...I do anyway. I don't think the problem is wakeboard vs skier, but is instead experienced watersport person and neophyte. In a few more years, the new watersport participants will learn how to share the water better and not ruin it for everyone.

Lets face it, there are a heckuva lot more riders than skiers out there today, and there are a heckuva lot more new boaters as well. Put the generalizations together and you can see why "wakeboarders" bear the brunt of opinions which should really be directed at bad boat driving. This, of course is my own personal opinion, being a skier, rider, and footer. Now, if you really want to see some hostility, watch how the footers interact with the skiers! WHEW!

I dont get why skiers dislike wakeboarding so much. Why do skiers resent the fact that wakeboarding is becoming more popular than skiing. I dont want to get into the argument of which one is harder or more challenging, both are difficult and easy depending on what you are trying to do. I quit skiing because it is boring to me, you cut left and then you cut right and then you cut back left. The only progression is shortening the rope. With wakeboarding there are several different directions I can go, I can work on inverts, spins, grabs, adding style to simple tricks, the possibilities are endless. Its not that I am rebelling against old timers, I respect a good slalom run as much as the next guy, its just that wakeboarding is more fun to me. One thing we all can agree on though, is tubers ruin glass for all of us. Just making a joke family guys with rugrats, I realize I dont own the water. By the way, we will be picking up our 06 vlx in april, looking forward to joining the malibu family.

I don't think they resent the fact that wakeboarding is becoming more popular than skiing, I think they resent an attitude like yours which belittles what they like to do.

[aneal000]

Enter wakeboarding. The surge of WB boat sales and ease of learning to wakeboard are putting a lot of people on the water that have no idea what the heck they are doing. As a result, 2 wakeboard boats driven by people who don't know what they're doing can ruin the entire lake.

So now we've gone to calling all wakeboarders plain old "wallies"

nice.

edit: in the quote above you should probably replace "ease of learning" with instant gratification and a platform that creates an enjoyable experience for those at all levels.

While their are many wakeboarders than understand, probably better than even some skiers, how to drive and protect the water/lake, etc... I think you are right on target with your generalization. (I was j/k above) We should blame all the boat dealers for not educating the consumer after the purchase.

Edited January 19, 2006 by aneal000