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Ndawg12

Heim Joint Rattling

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Ndawg12

Kind of embarrassed about this one. Tongue in cheek, I always rag on my buddies about their crappy Illusion towers. All 4 of my tower mounts have spider cracks around them, but that's because I let a dealer who had probably never seen a Titan install my warranty replacement mounts and they wrenched the backing plate down too tight. The other problem I'm having is with the starboard rear heim joint. It has developed a rattle over this season. It appears there is some play between the ball swivel and the casing. I tried readjusting it up and down hoping to put a little bind in it but nothing has worked. Ideas?

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85 Barefoot

Kind of embarrassed about this one. Tongue in cheek, I always rag on my buddies about their crappy Illusion towers. All 4 of my tower mounts have spider cracks around them, but that's because I let a dealer who had probably never seen a Titan install my warranty replacement mounts and they wrenched the backing plate down too tight. The other problem I'm having is with the starboard rear heim joint. It has developed a rattle over this season. It appears there is some play between the ball swivel and the casing. I tried readjusting it up and down hoping to put a little bind in it but nothing has worked. Ideas?

First as to cracks, I've never heard of cracks from tightening plate too tight. I've installed multiple towers and in fact they need to be as tight as possible. My guess is that the holes were not properly countersunk. IF that's the case on one, it may be on the others. I would pull all the mounts and check the countersink.

As to the rattle, are you referring to the "stud" into the tower with the threads? IF so, while tower off, I'd wrap the threads in whatever you want to call that thread-wrap stuff that you may use for sprinklers and see if that tightens up the connection adequately. IF you're describing something else, then can you clarify? Just trying to visualize where there is play.

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Ndawg12

First as to cracks, I've never heard of cracks from tightening plate too tight. I've installed multiple towers and in fact they need to be as tight as possible. My guess is that the holes were not properly countersunk. IF that's the case on one, it may be on the others. I would pull all the mounts and check the countersink.

As to the rattle, are you referring to the "stud" into the tower with the threads? IF so, while tower off, I'd wrap the threads in whatever you want to call that thread-wrap stuff that you may use for sprinklers and see if that tightens up the connection adequately. IF you're describing something else, then can you clarify? Just trying to visualize where there is play.

My original mounts didn't have any cracks but were pitted and looked terrible. There is also a plastic piece under the mount that I don't think got replaced, so maybe the mount is contacting the gel :unsure: I loosened one of the backing plates and all 4 nuts were on super tight. Maybe that's not the issue, I just know it wasn't crack before and I almost wish I'd never touched them, not a super huge deal just disappointing.

Here is a pic of where the heim joint is rattling.

post-8316-002074900 1317388702_thumb.png

Edited by Ndawg12

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85 Barefoot

so the rattling is actually "in" the "ball" joint? If so, just get a new one? Can't be that much

As for the cracks, I see, those were replacement feet...interesting...my guess is still not counetrsunk right, factory not always good about that.

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Ndawg12

so the rattling is actually "in" the "ball" joint? If so, just get a new one? Can't be that much

As for the cracks, I see, those were replacement feet...interesting...my guess is still not counetrsunk right, factory not always good about that.

I think I remember seeing them in the marine hardware catalog for around 50 bones!!! That's what I'll do if no one has a suggestion to fix it with adjustments....Brett, any ideas?

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ct77

Try McMaster Carr, here is a link to some stainless heim's. They are kind of spendy, I looked at a 1/2" one $30

http://www.mcmaster.com/#=eacv81

edit: link takes you to home page, just search Heim Joint

Edited by ct77

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Lance B. Johnson

If that is where the play is then there is only one thing to do and that is replace it.

Its funny you guys act like the illusion is the devil....but I have noticed that its always the same few people that complain about them on this forum (on a regular basis). I am almost 100 percent sure that the 09 that I ride behind hasn't had a single issue. I imagine there are a lot of people that never have issues.

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Ndawg12

If that is where the play is then there is only one thing to do and that is replace it.

Its funny you guys act like the illusion is the devil....but I have noticed that its always the same few people that complain about them on this forum (on a regular basis). I am almost 100 percent sure that the 09 that I ride behind hasn't had a single issue. I imagine there are a lot of people that never have issues.

I love the look of the illusion, it's what distinguished Malibu from the rest before the G3. The 2 bu owners I hang with have absolutely no problems (spider cracks, rattling, etc) with their illusions. I just raz them because we have different towers and all the stuff I've read on here. So don't label me as a hater, it's more of a joke with me that might not translate well on the internet!!

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Bill_AirJunky

I have a buddy who has an 09 XTI with the Titan III. They had to replace one of the heim joints under warranty because of this rattle your describing. Only time I've ever heard of it.

I imagine if the plastic base plates were not installed under the bases, then the gelcoat could easily develop cracks in it. Sorry, but I'd say bad install when the warranty work was done, especially since it's only developed since they were replaced.

I'm done bitchin about the Illusions & other Metcraft crappy products. Enjoy them to your heart's content. :Doh:

Edited by Bill_AirJunky

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nyryan2001

First as to cracks, I've never heard of cracks from tightening plate too tight. I've installed multiple towers and in fact they need to be as tight as possible. My guess is that the holes were not properly countersunk. IF that's the case on one, it may be on the others. I would pull all the mounts and check the countersink.

You can have the bolt holes perfectly countersunk, chamfered and everything else and still EASILY get spider cracks, there are several other thing that will cause them beise just the way you drilled the holes.... after coutersinking the holes, the next main issue is that backing plate on the inside of the hull... is it alum, pywood?? is is perfectly contored to match the hull? If not, did they use a rigid epoxy/glass/mat mix to fill those voids between the backing plate and the hull? Is the backing late big enough spread the load out over a big enough area?

Next. The site selection for the mount alone can cause cracks even if everything else is perfect....is the mount too far from a hull curve or contour(they keep FG strong and solid)... ie 10" or more in all directions of flat area? = semi flexible fiberglass = spider cracks at the mount from FG flex especially while under load.

The countersinking issues really really matter on vertical mounts on the side where downward pressures are applied to both the gell and the FG, less so on horizontal mounts where its up and down pulls on flat, sandwiched, FG and gel.

Most of the problems I have seen were related to backing plates not being correctly used and installed, and site selection for them on the hull where it is strongest as possible. And I certainly would not crank the bolts down as tight as possible, most reputable tower manufacturers provide specific torque specs for their mounts, which keep the pressures most gel coats can withstand before cracking in tolerance.

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Ndawg12

You can have the bolt holes perfectly countersunk, chamfered and everything else and still EASILY get spider cracks, there are several other thing that will cause them beise just the way you drilled the holes.... after coutersinking the holes, the next main issue is that backing plate on the inside of the hull... is it alum, pywood?? is is perfectly contored to match the hull? If not, did they use a rigid epoxy/glass/mat mix to fill those voids between the backing plate and the hull? Is the backing late big enough spread the load out over a big enough area?

Next. The site selection for the mount alone can cause cracks even if everything else is perfect....is the mount too far from a hull curve or contour(they keep FG strong and solid)... ie 10" or more in all directions of flat area? = semi flexible fiberglass = spider cracks at the mount from FG flex especially while under load.

The countersinking issues really really matter on vertical mounts on the side where downward pressures are applied to both the gell and the FG, less so on horizontal mounts where its up and down pulls on flat, sandwiched, FG and gel.

Most of the problems I have seen were related to backing plates not being correctly used and installed, and site selection for them on the hull where it is strongest as possible. And I certainly would not crank the bolts down as tight as possible, most reputable tower manufacturers provide specific torque specs for their mounts, which keep the pressures most gel coats can withstand before cracking in tolerance.

That was kind of my original thought. I really doubt the installation instructions say to use a 3' cheater bar and crank them as tight as possible.

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StarOneWake

Are you talking about the original Illusion tube tower manufactured by Titan? I have some new heim joints for you... Also you need the gaskets between the mounts.. Give me a call and I will get you all taken care of.. Also our cost for hiem joints will be better than you can find anywere else, that is why Malibu orders them from us for their towers.. And dont forget about The Malibu Crew Discount :thumbup:

Edited by StarOneWake

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jcon44

Kind of embarrassed about this one. Tongue in cheek, I always rag on my buddies about their crappy Illusion towers. All 4 of my tower mounts have spider cracks around them, but that's because I let a dealer who had probably never seen a Titan install my warranty replacement mounts and they wrenched the backing plate down too tight. The other problem I'm having is with the starboard rear heim joint. It has developed a rattle over this season. It appears there is some play between the ball swivel and the casing. I tried readjusting it up and down hoping to put a little bind in it but nothing has worked. Ideas?

Fisrt off, I cant believe you even have the ballz to write this post after all of the times you've talked about the superioroty of your Titan tower and the inferiority of my illusion. :rofl: Any how, i'm not one to punch someoen while he's down, and i may have an extra heim joint from my old boat in the garage i'll take a look. The old monster tower i had made allot of noise tward the end but never at the heim joints..

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footnlongline

Kind of embarrassed about this one. Tongue in cheek, I always rag on my buddies about their crappy Illusion towers. All 4 of my tower mounts have spider cracks around them, but that's because I let a dealer who had probably never seen a Titan install my warranty replacement mounts and they wrenched the backing plate down too tight. The other problem I'm having is with the starboard rear heim joint. It has developed a rattle over this season. It appears there is some play between the ball swivel and the casing. I tried readjusting it up and down hoping to put a little bind in it but nothing has worked. Ideas?

I would just turn the radio up. It's not like it's going to fail.

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Ndawg12

Are you talking about the original Illusion tube tower manufactured by Titan? I have some new heim joints for you... Also you need the gaskets between the mounts.. Give me a call and I will get you all taken care of.. Also our cost for hiem joints will be better than you can find anywere else, that is why Malibu orders them from us for their towers.. And dont forget about The Malibu Crew Discount :thumbup:

Thanks Brett, I have the 3 series:

bimini4.jpg

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nyryan2001

Here we are trying to have a civilized conversation, and someone has to go and post a pic of Malibu in winter conditions. This needs to be moved to hot topics immediately.

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StarOneWake

Thanks Brett, I have the 3 series:

bimini4.jpg

I have anything you need for that tower..

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Michigan boarder

Here we are trying to have a civilized conversation, and someone has to go and post a pic of Malibu in winter conditions. This needs to be moved to hot topics immediately.

Inconceivable!

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Indyxc

If that is where the play is then there is only one thing to do and that is replace it.

Its funny you guys act like the illusion is the devil....but I have noticed that its always the same few people that complain about them on this forum (on a regular basis). I am almost 100 percent sure that the 09 that I ride behind hasn't had a single issue. I imagine there are a lot of people that never have issues.

Not to highjack the thread:

Could be because it's an 09, and not "worn in" yet, but bottom line the Illusion X tower is a poor design for many reasons. I've fixed mine to be rock solid, but here is why I think so:

-Cast aluminum hoop is thin, and you can tell it has porosity.

-The tolerances or variation on the tower are large.

-The base plates are in my opinion not large enough.

-The from swivel bearing is made out of out of a plastic, with a knurled bolt running through it.

-The base to tower has very little lateral support.

-The rear bushings are some version of plastic. Why? Because the towers vary so much they wanted a compliant material to modify so the pins would slide in.

-Tower is shorter than most.

-Rumor is from Malibu it was designed for up to 150 lb loads. I guess they were going for the 12 and under demographic.

It's no coincidence they went out of business.

Edited by Indyxc

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Lance B. Johnson

Not to highjack the thread:

Could be because it's an 09, and not "worn in" yet, but bottom line the Illusion X tower is a poor design for many reasons. I've fixed mine to be rock solid, but here is why I think so:

-Cast aluminum hoop is thin, and you can tell it has porosity.

-The tolerances or variation on the tower are large.

-The base plates are in my opinion not large enough.

-The from swivel bearing is made out of out of a plastic, with a knurled bolt running through it.

-The base to tower has very little lateral support.

-The rear bushings are some version of plastic. Why? Because the towers vary so much they wanted a compliant material to modify so the pins would slide in.

-Tower is shorter than most.

-Rumor is from Malibu it was designed for up to 150 lb loads. I guess they were going for the 12 and under demographic.

It's no coincidence they went out of business.

same guy owned an 07 with no problems...the guy uses his boat to 130 hours this summer. just saying that I know it isn't the best tower but it probably isn't the POS that its made out to be. There are worse towers for sure.

Edited by Ruffdog

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Bill_AirJunky

Not to highjack the thread:

Could be because it's an 09, and not "worn in" yet, but bottom line the Illusion X tower is a poor design for many reasons. I've fixed mine to be rock solid, but here is why I think so:

-Cast aluminum hoop is thin, and you can tell it has porosity.

-The tolerances or variation on the tower are large.

-The base plates are in my opinion not large enough.

-The from swivel bearing is made out of out of a plastic, with a knurled bolt running through it.

-The base to tower has very little lateral support.

-The rear bushings are some version of plastic. Why? Because the towers vary so much they wanted a compliant material to modify so the pins would slide in.

-Tower is shorter than most.

-Rumor is from Malibu it was designed for up to 150 lb loads. I guess they were going for the 12 and under demographic.

It's no coincidence they went out of business.

I have first hand experience with failure, and know of 3 other guys who have, one of which is an active member here on the Crew. One guy who has had an injury on the boat from it. I'm not saying I don't know people who have had good luck with them.... there are plenty. But I also know a guy who is selling his 3 yr old VTX because of the problems too. :Doh:

But since people think it's all that & a bag of chips, I won't burst their bubble. I think it's stupid that they wouldn't want to know about potential problems, especially if people are getting hurt from it. At least then they can make educated decisions & maybe take steps to make sure their not victims of failure too.

Good luck to you & your crew. :crazy:

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Lance B. Johnson

I have first hand experience with failure, and know of 3 other guys who have, one of which is an active member here on the Crew. One guy who has had an injury on the boat from it. I'm not saying I don't know people who have had good luck with them.... there are plenty. But I also know a guy who is selling his 3 yr old VTX because of the problems too. :Doh:

But since people think it's all that & a bag of chips, I won't burst their bubble. I think it's stupid that they wouldn't want to know about potential problems, especially if people are getting hurt from it. At least then they can make educated decisions & maybe take steps to make sure their not victims of failure too.

Good luck to you & your crew. :crazy:

Bill,

I totally respect your opinion and quite possibly maybe it is the biggest POS ever made. I don't know. I certainly didn't mean to elevate the old blood pressure :lol: Just sayin that the large majority of people might only have minor problems or no problems.....FWIW

Anyway.....have a good one. Didn't mean to offend anyone by chiming in. :)

Edited by Ruffdog

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Bill_AirJunky

Bill,

I totally respect your opinion and quite possibly maybe it is the biggest POS ever made. I don't know. I certainly didn't mean to elevate the old blood pressure :lol: Just sayin that the large majority of people might only have minor problems or no problems.....FWIW

Anyway.....have a good one. Didn't mean to offend anyone by chiming in. :)

I hear ya. Maybe I'm a little passionate about it. I've seen failures in Metcraft products so bad & their support so atrocious that the CEO of Tige, Charlie Pigeon, got involved.

Don't think for a minute that there is no reasoning behind Malibu picking up Titan & letting Metcraft flounder. And Malibu was at least the 3rd boat manufacturer to drop Metcraft like a hot rock.

Believe me, if 2 out of 10 Titan towers were failing around me, and the company wasn't stepping up to help the user, I'd tell you ALL about it. But that is very much NOT the case, and I expect you see/hear me saying that a lot too.

While I appreciate what some of these companies have done for us, my loyalty is with the rider.

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Ndawg12

Well I think I've got this one fixed. I'm terrible at diagnosing which is evident in some of my prior threads, I don't think there was anything wrong with the heim joint. The "play" that was yielding a rattle was due to the bolt not threaded all the way in. But that bolt was as tight as can be, not sure what happened, but it was like the bolt was bottoming out inside the mount thus leaving a little lateral wiggle room for the heim joint. I inserted a few stainless washers between the heim joint and the mount and it's all good now :thumbup:

Edited by Ndawg12

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