Banning ballast on my lake

[Bawshogg]

My biggest issue with what has happened here is this. One group. Paddlers. They want this section of contested river in our area for they're sole use. Paddle craft users or operators in the state of Oregon pay no registration fees what so ever. The section that is under dispute is set smack dab almost in the middle of downtown Portland. There are major freeways on both sides of the river, I5 being one of them, and an overpass across the river in this area. A large sand and gravel operation runs a quarry out of this same area in which they have rock crushers running 6 days a week and huge barges full of sand and rock are being pushed in and around this area also. The paddlers are taking the approach that WE, the motorboats are harming the wildlifes natural habitat in this area. They are also concerned with our boatwakes casuing damage to the shoreline and causing erosion. What it comes down to, is this: This section of the river has a bank of trees that runs through the middle, this shelters this portion of the river from wind, along with the slight bend in the river. This makes for good water that skiers, wakeboarders and other tow boat sport enthusuiasts love. Not only that, it's centrally located for most, right in the middle of town. They only want the area for themselves, and want it to be designated a slow, no wake zone, BUT...... with the stipulation that commerical boat traffic can still operate the way they have been. Barges can still run as needed and the jet boat tours can still buzz in and around . How can the Marine board not see that the powerboat owners are being singled out here? Bottom line, it's a public waterway. No single group should have sole us of the area, especially a gruop that pays NOTHING to keep our waterways safe, clean, and accesable. They pushed us out of a great section of the same river about 4-5 miles south of this one with the complaint of homeowners and the shore errosion issues. They stood behind the"play away" campaign. So now we "play away" from the homes and they want us go to "play" somewhere else! It's very frustrating incase you can't tell.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Bawshogg

[RTS]

...Undoubtedly some spoiled brat kid with a F-you attitude and the big wakeboat with 1500 watt sound system Daddy bought him will decide that no one is gonna tell him how to conduct himself .....

..... it's only a matter of time because the F-off attitude punks will screw it up for the rest of us. If we can get it through their thick heads that it's in THEIR best interest to tone it down a bit there might be hope.

Ed

The crew of teens in their family's boat have always been on the lake. Been there, done that.

The difference today is that the boats they are driving now have the capability to throw a 3' + high wall of water, as well as giga-watts of sound, across the lake.

The 'circle of influence', if you will, has expanded dramatically. Those same teens in Daddy's '90 Mastercraft with maybe a stock stereo and 4 cabin speakers did not have the ability to piss off people (fishermen, homeowners) a mile away. The wakes were small (by design) and the tunes were not loud.

We (as a group) like to complain about the jet skiers. But they don't have massive sound systems (yet) and they don't throw a monster wake. Their 'circle of influence' is small. They can only annoy us when they are close, giving us the chance to let them know we are displeased that they are following too close or whatever.

Look...the music is upsetting people, the wakes are upsetting people. Too Loud, Too Big. (and based on my experience on this site, getting louder and bigger every year)

The homeowner who is forced to listen to your choice of tunes while he sips his coffee on his dock and watches the rollers toss his moored pontoon boat around cannot complain to you...you are too far away. The family and their guests in their '02 Sunsetter LXi who have to make sure swimming children are a couple feet away from the swim platform when those rollers come through and the platform is smacking the water with force enough to kill cannot complain to you...you are too far away. The fisherman getting tossed around while he tries to bait a hook cannot complain to you...you are too far away.

So they seek remedy the best way they know how...they complain to the legislators...

The nature of wakesurfing (and to an extent, wakeboarding) requires your boat throwing the biggest wake you can manage. Unfortunately, this practice is at odds with how the majority of people on the lakes use them (fishermen, rec boaters, waterskiers, etc.). I'm not judging you...it's just the truth.

Surfing will be the tipping point that ruins it for all wake enhancing, especially on inland lakes. Not what some people here want to hear or think about, but it is the reality.

Edited December 14, 2010 by RTS

[Bawshogg]

Agreed, in your case it is completely logical, but in our isolated case here in Portland we are at astruggle to find the logic behind it on the lower Willamette.

[Bill_AirJunky]

-----------------snip

The nature of wakesurfing (and to an extent, wakeboarding) requires your boat throwing the biggest wake you can manage.

I agree with most everything said. And I appreciate a huge wake too. But guys could actually learn some basic riding mechanics & do most all the same tricks. We've done it for years. The huge wake is really a crutch for crappy skills.

[Jimmypooh]

I see a couple arguements you can use. The first can only be used if this is brought on by fishermen. Fishing boats have been liked into transportaion of invasive species into lakes because of their livewells and their habbits of "pond hopping." This might silence the fisheremen.

The other possibility is calculating the actual energy output of the different types of boat wakes:

The energy of a larger surfwake may be the same or less than other wakes because the boat is moving at slower speeds and therefore creating a wake that is not as long as from a boat that is traveling at a higher rate of speed. Think of it this way: Three boats start at the same point at the same time. (Surf Boat, Wakeboard Boat, Recreational Boat):Surf Boat puts up a Wake of 4 feet tall, and travels 10 miles in one hourWakeboard Boat puts up a wake of 2 feet tall and travels 20 miles in one hourRecreational Boat puts up a wake of 1 foot tall and travels 40 miles in one hour

In real life, the faster boats are throwing more sets of wakes at the shoreline as they repeat passes of the same shoreline. We can calculate the energy released from the boats using formulas such as from here: http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/01-02/RE_info/wave%20power.htm

I am willing to do the calculation if someone can measure the different types of wakes. We would need Amplitude (1/2 distance from tip to trough) and Length (Distance from tip to tip). The best way of measuring these acurately would be to use a partially submurged plywood board with measurements painted on it (height and length). Then take pictures as wakes pass the board. The board should be purpendicular with the wave. I can run the numbers even if someone has a good estimate.

My initial guess is that most boats are going to have similar energy production per time provided that heavier boats are going slower.

[RTS]

My initial guess is that most boats are going to have similar energy production per time provided that heavier boats are going slower.

While I appreciate the thought you put in to this argument, I think the real world results would not favor your case.

If I am sitting in the middle of a calm lake in my Sunsetter LXi, having a Subway Sub, and NorCaliBu cruises by at 36 MPH in his Sporty say 50' away, I may get a little rocking going on.

If 'Sparkles' cruises by, 50' away, throwing that enormous surf wave at 10 MPH, I am going to be holding on to everything in my boat that is not bolted down.

Edited December 14, 2010 by RTS

[Jimmypooh]

While I appreciate the thought you put in to this argument, I think the real world results would not favor your argument.

If I am sitting on the middle of a clam lake in my Sunsetter, and Norcalibu cruises by at 36 MPH in his Sporty say 50' away, I may get a little rocking going on.

If 'Sparkles' cruises by, 50' away, throwing that enormous surf wave at 10 MPH, I am going to be holding on to everything in my boat that is not bolted down.

I agree with you, but my arguement was mostly pointed to counter the erosion arguement. However, the same is true with what you said. In your case, Norcalibu would pass you more than 3 times as often as Sparkles would on a given day. Some might consider that more annoying.

[RTS]

I see your point. But I really think the erosion thing is 'cover' for the fact that some poeple are just simply annoyed at the large wakes and loud music that is becoming more and more common with the increase in popularity of wakesurfing.

They may have been annoyed with the wake boarders, but the surfing thing has put them over the edge, and they will try to take away all Wake enhancing, taking out the wake boarders with them.

[Jimmypooh]

BTW,

If you surf and always drive with a slight turn, this will help dicipate the wake the further it travels. I've noticed my surf wakes are smaller then a recreational boater's wake once it travels about 100 yards. Therefore I just have to keep my distace from people/shore.

And for those about to yell at me for powerturning, We only surf later in the day when the water is rough already.

[Jimmypooh]

I see your point. But I really think the erosion thing is 'cover' for the fact that some poeple are just simply annoyed at the large wakes and loud music that is becoming more and more common with the increase in popularity of wakesurfing.

They may have been annoyed with the wake boarders, but the surfing thing has put them over the edge, and they will try to take away all Wake enhancing, taking out the wake boarders with them.

They may be pissed about it, but if you can counter their illogical reasons, they wont be able to pass a ban on WEDs.

[RTS]

Therefore I just have to keep my distace from people/shore.

If eveyone was this considerate, we would not be having this conversation. But, alas, such is not the case, and we will all be lumped in together when it is time to legislate in your area.

[Jimmypooh]

If eveyone was this considerate, we would not be having this conversation. But, alas, such is not the case, and we will all be lumped in together when it is time to legislate in your area.

You may be right. Fortunately for me, our waterway is federal waters and they can't regulate anything.

[stumpf101]

They may be pissed about it, but if you can counter their illogical reasons, they wont be able to pass a ban on WEDs.

[NorCaliBu]

Most of the skiers on this lake are only there on weekends in the summer, so it's hard to get all the skiers to this meeting to vote against the ban.

I don't think you'll get much support from skiers.

Undoubtedly some spoiled brat kid with a F-you attitude and the big wakeboat with 1500 watt sound system Daddy bought him will decide that no one is gonna tell him how to conduct himself and will screw it up for everyone else; only takes one.

Unfortunately it's not just the "young punks" doing it. I see twenty-somethings, and even thirty-somethings, acting like that all the time.

Our private lake banned wake-enhancement devices several years ago. Enforcement is tough unless the boat has sacs sitting out, exposed to view or is so loaded down that the rubrail is at the waterline.

I agree with RTS that wakesurfing is going to be the tipping point. The huge wakes being thrown these days can make the waterway unsafe for other users. Wait until a wakesurfer capsizes a canoe or small fishing boat and someone drowns and lawsuits get filed. That will get ugly in a hurry.

[NorCaliBu]

I agree with you, but my arguement was mostly pointed to counter the erosion arguement. However, the same is true with what you said. In your case, Norcalibu would pass you more than 3 times as often as Sparkles would on a given day. Some might consider that more annoying.

That is assuming that I could hold on to the handle that long.

[Jimmypooh]

That is assuming that I could hold on to the handle that long.

looks like someone needs to hit the gym in the offseason.

[85 Barefoot]

Wakes are a different issue than stereos which are a different issue than responsible boating behavior. The problem is when someone sees all 3 mixed together and makes the association that all wake boats have incompetent operators with foul music blaring.

I would suggest getting proactive. Propose working WITH the board to develop safety and responsible use standards that could even require a "class" and maybe even a certification sticker. As part of that "class", discuss erosion issues and how everyone concerns can be minimized, heck allow one of "them" to teach the class (even if just to appease them). The detractors will feel better about people being aware of the issues, and could deflect a situation that is just going to end with the side with the bigger stick winning.

[Bobby Light]

Wakes are a different issue than stereos which are a different issue than responsible boating behavior. The problem is when someone sees all 3 mixed together and makes the association that all wake boats have incompetent operators with foul music blaring.

I would suggest getting proactive. Propose working WITH the board to develop safety and responsible use standards that could even require a "class" and maybe even a certification sticker. As part of that "class", discuss erosion issues and how everyone concerns can be minimized, heck allow one of "them" to teach the class (even if just to appease them). The detractors will feel better about people being aware of the issues, and could deflect a situation that is just going to end with the side with the bigger stick winning.

Good idea.

[nemalibu]

Good idea.

I agree.

[skurfer]

With a science background, it's so hard for me to listen to these guys crying erosion. We've had a lot of rain here in the PNW. The Willamette is running chocolate milk brown with trees floating downstream. Erosion is part of nature. Just hard for me to swallow the amount of erosion happening right now in the middle of winter compared to when the water is low in the summer from boats! Really? Come on......Our river has WAY more problems than wakes from wakeboard/waterski boats. Let's fix all the other problems first, then revisit this one later. Finally, show me a scientific study please........

[Guest J-Ro]

I agree with most everything said. And I appreciate a huge wake too. But guys could actually learn some basic riding mechanics & do most all the same tricks. We've done it for years. The huge wake is really a crutch for crappy skills.

THIS

[SeanQ]

Wow this was a hot topic! I agree with what most of you have to say, and I really liked the ideas of getting my local dealers involved or starting a class. Right now I know we're getting support from the Wisconsin Water Ski Federation compiling legal arguments against this issue, and getting much more support from the ski community (I use ski describing all disciplines). Everyone around here is getting concerned because they also put other issues on the ballot regarding shortening wake hours and lowering the no wake water level, so I think we'd all like the issue to go no further than ballast. I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[RedOwl]

So the town board is trying to ban the use of "wake enhancing devices" on my lake, mostly the use of ballast systems...At the last meeting they were 81% in favor of banning them. Does anyone have any ideas for arguments other than...well I like having my ballast!? Their reasoning is that big wakes are eroding shorelines supposedly. There aren't any bigger boats on this lake than wakeboard boats so I can't say other boats make bigger wakes anyway. Most of the skiers on this lake are only there on weekends in the summer, so it's hard to get all the skiers to this meeting to vote against the ban. It's pretty much just the bunch of fishermen going to these meetings that stay here year round that know that winter is the best time to get this through.

Sean, what part of the state are you in? Which lake?

[apwrx]

I agree with most everything said. And I appreciate a huge wake too. But guys could actually learn some basic riding mechanics & do most all the same tricks. We've done it for years. The huge wake is really a crutch for crappy skills.

Completely agree

[SeanQ]

Sean, what part of the state are you in? Which lake?

I'm on Whitewater Lake (in Whitewater)