Lets talk about boots

[gooddog]

40 years ago they didn't have rear boots. I didn't even know they had rear boots til 01 when I bought a CDX. I thought well I have always used a RTP so I had them take the rear boot off and install a RTP. Now, I wish I had kept the rear boot on. (They are Animals). I have not tried rear boots yet but I really want to. I think I may like it a lot but I would like to try it out before I spend the bucks.

[onamission]

40 years ago they didn't have rear boots. I didn't even know they had rear boots til 01 when I bought a CDX. I thought well I have always used a RTP so I had them take the rear boot off and install a RTP. Now, I wish I had kept the rear boot on. (They are Animals). I have not tried rear boots yet but I really want to. I think I may like it a lot but I would like to try it out before I spend the bucks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're welcome to try one of mine if you want to. What size is your foot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pretending to be Mrs. Toad for a moment. Thought no one saw that, huh?

[gooddog]

40 years ago they didn't have rear boots. I didn't even know they had rear boots til 01 when I bought a CDX. I thought well I have always used a RTP so I had them take the rear boot off and install a RTP. Now, I wish I had kept the rear boot on. (They are Animals). I have not tried rear boots yet but I really want to. I think I may like it a lot but I would like to try it out before I spend the bucks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're welcome to try one of mine if you want to. What size is your foot?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GT,

I use a medium. I have a large on my old Mach 1 and it is a little loose.

[billb]

Anybody have any opinions on this : I am a life-long RTP (one foot out) guy and I'm about to acquire a double-boot ski. I'm also a 2 herniated disc guy, so I'm wondering what people think about the stress on the back in the double boot. When I first got my boat (first inboard for any of my crew) and I didn't know to tell them not to floor it, I kept coming over the front. To combat this, I tried putting my back foot in. I struggled quite a bit and the process seemed like a big game of tug of war with the boat. It won a lot. (My ski was also much too small) I seem to recall that these battles were pretty tough on my lower back. My herniations are at L4-L5 and L5-S1. My back is feeling great right now, though. I now have a 70-inch Mach 1 (Thanks Matt) which is a piece of cake to get up on. How much difference do you think I'll see with a 70-inch CDX with double-boots?

[mrothwell]

I think that starting with both feet in is MUCH more stressing on your back unless your form is perfect. Dragging a foot you plane out much faster and have much less resistance.

[Texasguy]

I can attest to getting up with two feet in the boots being hard to get used to. All my life I've used an open heel rear boot and got up with only one foot in. One day I tried a friends double boot KD and took 2 or 3 tries to get up on each line cut. Good news is that I love the ski and I made 28 off at 34 mph, the bad news is that I took a lot of grief from the guys in the boat that I could ski 28 off but I couldn't get up.

[billb]

GT, I'm sure it will be fine. It'll just take some getting used to. I didn't care much for two-footed starts when I tried them last, but the situation was different. I can't wait to try out the Animal bindings. I was just hoping that someone else with 20+ years of one-footing had switched and had some words of wisdom for me. I already touch my thigh to my vest anyway, so that'll be nothing new. My current starting methods are super easy on my back. I just hope I can quickly develop a method for making the two-footed starts just as easy.

[hotrodbowtie]

I skied rpt for 15ys then switched to dbl plates. I have 3 bad disks and can attest to dbl boots being much more stressful on the back. I skied on dbl plates for 15yrs now and have switched back to rpt. What a difference. With dbl plates you have incredible force of the water on your body vs rtp. I would guess that there is 75% less force with rtp. I would guess that it is permanent rpt for me now that I dropped the stubborn streak.

[Chef23]

With a 1 foot in start you can get the ski on a much shallower angle and it planes up out of the water easier. With the back foot in for me the ski is a little more up and down and doesn't climb out of the water as easily.

[gooddog]

GT,

I use a medium. I have a large on my old Mach 1 and it is a little loose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All mine are larges, but they are the SuperFeet rear lace-up type so you can get in and pull them tight. They're also RFF, does that work for you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks GT, Yeah I am RFF, I really appreciate the offer. Today I found a med. rear Animal in good condition that I can get here for cheap, and may be able to try it out first. Probably won't do it until spring though. The water temp is down where I just want to get up out of the water ASAP with no experimenting and without hurting myself. Not many slalom skiers around here, I think it would be good to get together on one of those ski clinics sometime.

[billb]

I kind of suspected that I'd hear what some of you guys said. Heck, that's why we developed the one-foot technique in the first place. We learned to slalom behind my buddy's dad's 14-foot fishing boat w/40 hp. We didn't have a prayer of coming out of the water if we put our back foot in. We continued doing one-foots even after we got our I/O because it was so much easier on the body. The I/O had plenty of power. I learned to do barefoot deepwater starts behind it - even did a flying dock start behind it.

[mrothwell]

not only is the angle of attack much less with one foot out, but the trailing leg will also supply some lift when drug through the water. Between the angle of attack and the extra lift, you plain out much faster. I think that the trailing leg also helps support the back because now you have one leg forward, the other leg back. Kinda hard to explain, but starting one foot out for 20 years, it was a pain to learn it all over with both feet in and I have learned that I have to pay a lot of attention or I'll pull a muscle in my lower back.

[Hoover]

I skied rpt for 15ys then switched to dbl plates.  I have 3 bad disks and can attest to dbl boots being much more stressful on the back.  I skied on dbl plates for 15yrs now and have switched back to rpt.  What a difference.  With dbl plates you have incredible force of the water on your body vs rtp.  I would guess that there is 75% less force with rtp.  I would guess that it is permanent rpt for me now that I dropped the stubborn streak. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please explain this. What is the difference? Are you talking about skiing, or getting up? If it is getting up, are you talking about the difference between dragging a foot or starting with both feet in? If skiing, what are you talking about?

My experience, after skiing a RTP for 10 years before swithching to boots, was it just felt strange getting up. I have always started with both feet in, when I switched to double boots, it took a few sets to get used to it because I couldn't move my back foot all around (causing bad form) That was the only noticible thing for me. There wasn't any extra stress on the start or during skiing. I would say my starting form is excellent though, from many years of skiing behind underpowered wally boats. I found I had tons more control of the ski with double boots than I ever had with a RTP. A few guys, Mapple, can use the RTP with precision, but I think the majority of us have no where near the balance and control to put the ski where it needs to be while having our rear heal flopping all over the place.

Edited December 15, 2005 by Hoover

[billb]

I concerned about starts only. I think I'll love the doubles once I'm on top of the water. It's stuff like what mrothwell says that scares me.

[mrothwell]

Dont let me scare you away from going double boot. I hated the starts for a bit, but once on top of the water, it quickly made up for the extra effort of getting up. The key for me was to keep my knees bent forward as much as possible to help with the angle of attack. It'll take a bit of time, but you do get used to it and it is worth it in the end.

[skisix@38]

Here is a different perspective on why starting with a foot dragging is easier- it's becuase you can bend more, or give more to the boat if you will. What I noticed this last year is that, bearing in mind my double boots, under full throttle starts I would get pulled over the front of the ski and that would cause excess stress on my shoulders and back. With the same boat and a softer start I could say "hit it" and just stand up with a reduced load on my shoulders and back. I think this is becuase my legs can exert so much strength and after that has been exceeded, something has to give. With both feet in the boots it is more akward to bend at the waist and still provide much strength to resist the pull of the boat, then doing the same thing with one foot dragging.

I have to play the BS card on getting any appreciable lift from a foot at slow speeds. If that were true, a person could foot at 12mph.

[Hoover]

I have to play the BS card on getting any appreciable lift from a foot at slow speeds.  If that were true, a person could foot at 12mph.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks, your credibility is better than mine. I agree

[mrothwell]

I have to play the BS card on getting any appreciable lift from a foot at slow speeds.  If that were true, a person could foot at 12mph.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not just your foot, it's the full length of your leg dragging. That is a lot of surface area and does create a significant amount of lift.

[skisix@38]

I have to play the BS card on getting any appreciable lift from a foot at slow speeds.  If that were true, a person could foot at 12mph.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's not just your foot, it's the full length of your leg dragging. That is a lot of surface area and does create a significant amount of lift.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll give ya that it takes less HP from the boat to pull a skier up with one foot dragging. The BS card is still on the table about the lift of "full length of your leg". After about 38mph I'll give ya the lift of one leg. Ask any footer.

[Chef23]

I have to play the BS card on getting any appreciable lift from a foot at slow speeds.  If that were true, a person could foot at 12mph.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think it is lift from the free leg but the angle you can hold the ski at with the rear foot out ramps out of the water easier. For me with two feet in the ski plows a little more which takes a little more strength to get through the initial pull.

I have had success teaching women and young kids who don't have as much leg strength to get up with both legs in.

[NorCaliBu]

If you don't have enough core strength to get up with both feet in then you don't have enough core strength to pull hard enough to get through the course. Time to improve you core strength. Abs, in particular. Time for daily crunches.

[VinRLX]

The one foot start is far less stressful on the body. Takes less power from the boat, ski planes more quickly, and resistance overall is not nearly that of a two foot start. I learned using the one foot behind an old outboard. If I attempted taking the pull of my current double boot start, with only one foot in, the boat would kill me.

The issue of the back foot or leg providing lift is irrelevant, unless you want to debate that point. Dragging a foot or leg behind you can not be compared to footing at 12 MPH. Footing creates drag, uses a small planing surface, and requires speed to maintain the plane. Perhaps we should consider 30' cruisers that use 12" trim tabs to help get on plane.

OTH, if you're someone who gets up one foot, wants to go to double boots but can't get up two feet in, I might be persuaded to share my patented, fool-proof method for the right price. . .

[Baddog]

The one foot start is far less stressful on the body. Takes less power from the boat, ski planes more quickly, and resistance overall is not nearly that of a two foot start. I learned using the one foot behind an old outboard. If I attempted taking the pull of my current double boot start, with only one foot in, the boat would kill me.

The issue of the back foot or leg providing lift is irrelevant, unless you want to debate that point. Dragging a foot or leg behind you can not be compared to footing at 12 MPH. Footing creates drag, uses a small planing surface, and requires speed to maintain the plane. Perhaps we should consider 30' cruisers that use 12" trim tabs to help get on plane.

OTH, if you're someone who gets up one foot, wants to go to double boots but can't get up two feet in, I might be persuaded to share my patented, fool-proof method for the right price. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vin,

Please share away. I am planning to devote my next season to perfecting the double boot start, but as of now, have never done it. Hearing the how-to now will prepare me for those early season chilly starts when I may not want to be screwing around IN the water rather than on top of it.

[Chef23]

The one foot start is far less stressful on the body. Takes less power from the boat, ski planes more quickly, and resistance overall is not nearly that of a two foot start. I learned using the one foot behind an old outboard. If I attempted taking the pull of my current double boot start, with only one foot in, the boat would kill me.

The issue of the back foot or leg providing lift is irrelevant, unless you want to debate that point. Dragging a foot or leg behind you can not be compared to footing at 12 MPH. Footing creates drag, uses a small planing surface, and requires speed to maintain the plane. Perhaps we should consider 30' cruisers that use 12" trim tabs to help get on plane.

OTH, if you're someone who gets up one foot, wants to go to double boots but can't get up two feet in, I might be persuaded to share my patented, fool-proof method for the right price. . .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vin,

Please share away. I am planning to devote my next season to perfecting the double boot start, but as of now, have never done it. Hearing the how-to now will prepare me for those early season chilly starts when I may not want to be screwing around IN the water rather than on top of it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have only done the two foot start a couple of times but I focus on pulling my back foot up to my butt and trying to have the ski on as shallow an angle as possible. I also try to get forward a little bit but not pulled over the front.

I have always been a 1 foot guy but have gotten up every time but 1 with 2 feet in.

[HRemington]

I guess this is one of those YMMV topics, but I have never been able to get up one foot in, have always found it way more stressful on my body when I've tried, have always gotten up both feet in, took two or three tries to get used to double boots up, but don't notice much stress at all on my much-older-than-most-of-you body. Then again, I may be a lot stronger and in superior condition compared to the average banker.