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Sunsetter w/o Wedge Wakesurfing


Umatilla Matt

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I've got a 1997 Sunsetter LX Direct Drive without a wedge that I've been trying to surf behind. So far, no luck going rope-less. :(

This is how I've had it set up:

540lb fat sac in place of the rear seat.

540lb fat sac along the side.

350lb fat sac in the bow walkway.

Another 350lb fat sac either on the side along with the 540lb sac or in the back corner across the top of the two 540 pounders.

Driver and observer who sits in the rear corner.

9.5 mph seems to give us the best wave, but we're still unable to come close to going rope-less. I don't have the wedge. I've read other posts of people with similar boats surfing rope-less except they have the wedge. I think I need to add more weight but where? We usually have only 3 or 4 people in the boat so I gotta make it up with ballast. I'm 6'3" 215lbs so does that mean I need a bigger wave? We're using a Hyperlite Broadcast with all 3 fins.

Anyone else with a wedge-less direct drive surfing rope-less?

Also, can fat sacs be stacked? :crazy: I did it today but it seemed to put alot of pressure on the bottom ones.

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Have you tried turning the boat in a slight arc toward the direction of the surfer? Doing so will help give the surf side wake a little more curl.

It does not surprise me, however, that you could not ride ropeless with that much weight. To give you an example, I have a 2001 Sunsetter LXI, which I know is a different hull, and this weekend I had 10 adults plus my center 350lb ballast (~1850lbs) but could not ride ropeless. Then I realized that I had forgotten to put down the wedge. Once I put it down I had an awesome wave that I got a nice 3 minute ropeless run on.

So to answer your question, I think you need 800 to 1000lbs more before you're going to ride ropeless. Unfortunately I don't think you have the room in your boat for that much more weight, and stacking big sacks is not a great idea. Also, if you add that much more weight via sacks you will then be in a seriously overweighted boat situation that may not be safe.

I think your best and safest bet is to add a wedge.

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Have you tried turning the boat in a slight arc toward the direction of the surfer?

I did try that, but it didn't make that much of a difference.

So to answer your question, I think you need 800 to 1000lbs more before you're going to ride ropeless.

I was looking at those fat sacs shaped like a couch. I think they're about 1200lbs. I'm not sure if I wanna spend the money on that or even if my boat can take that much weight!

...stacking big sacks is not a great idea.

Good to know! It was a little sketchy!

I think your best and safest bet is to add a wedge.

Thanks! I'll have to look into that.

Another question: Is it more important to have weight in the rear of the boat or to have weight on the side to tilt the boat?

-Matt

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Check this out...

Martin goes ropeless with no wedge behind his old skier

That's weird because we have about the same amount of weight. Maybe he's lighter than me or has more people in the boat. My buddy weighs about 150lbs and he was the only one who came close to tossing in the rope.

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The boat needs to list, however, I've found that if you get too much list in this boat it kills the forward push of the wave. You may want to try to re-arranging the sacs slightly to get a little more even weight distribution (but still favor one side). I'm still trying to get my boat dialed in as well. I ordered a 1100# sac to go with 2-260# sacs I already have and will be playing around with it this weekend. I talked to the salesman when buying the sac and he mentioned that he surfs behind a friend's Sunsetter quite a bit (with comparable weight) and they have found the wave is better with the wedge up. I don't know if this is true but I was going to at least experiment and see. Also, I haven't been surfing long but had a "click" moment a month or so ago where everything started making sense and can now can go ropeless with approx. 500#, 2 people, and the wedge. If you haven't had that moment yet that may be part of your issue.

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I have an 04 LSV... we ride with the wedge down when we only have a couple people in the boat (plus MLS ballast and 750lb sac)... when we have a lot of weight (6+ people), the wedge actually makes the wake too sloppy... it is much cleaner with the wedge up when riding heavy. Its more about moving people around to get a good shape.

Seems like you have enough weight to get a good wake... like the other post, I think you should toy with the distribution of the weight... wedge shouldn't be the issue. Try more up front on riders side.

Adjust the speed too. My LSV is best at 12.5. Most people are much slower. Try going faster, it may make your wake harder.

Also, post a reply, once you dial it in... I'm always interested in how folks tweak it to get it right.

Edited by Munch
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martinarcher

I did try that, but it didn't make that much of a difference.

I was looking at those fat sacs shaped like a couch. I think they're about 1200lbs. I'm not sure if I wanna spend the money on that or even if my boat can take that much weight!

Good to know! It was a little sketchy!

Thanks! I'll have to look into that.

Another question: Is it more important to have weight in the rear of the boat or to have weight on the side to tilt the boat?

-Matt

I have one laying around that is too much for my Skier, but would probably work well on a Sunsetter. PM me if your interested in it.

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Played with the setup a little this past weekend. I put 2 -260# sacs in the walk-through back to back and the 1100# sac in the rear on the port side. Also had three people in the boat but they were all girls so not much added weight there. Tried it with and without the wedge. Both waves were easily surfable with decently long pockets (7'-8'). The wave had better shape with the wedge down then with it up. At the same itme it also "felt" really steep (maybe because I haven't been on a wave that size?). Without the wedge the wave was equally as big just not as steep and not as clean....definitely surfable though. I'm not sure exactly what speed we were going because the sensors for the spedometer were clogged, I would guess it was right around 10 mph +/- though.

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martinarcher

Played with the setup a little this past weekend. I put 2 -260# sacs in the walk-through back to back and the 1100# sac in the rear on the port side. Also had three people in the boat but they were all girls so not much added weight there. Tried it with and without the wedge. Both waves were easily surfable with decently long pockets (7'-8'). The wave had better shape with the wedge down then with it up. At the same itme it also "felt" really steep (maybe because I haven't been on a wave that size?). Without the wedge the wave was equally as big just not as steep and not as clean....definitely surfable though. I'm not sure exactly what speed we were going because the sensors for the spedometer were clogged, I would guess it was right around 10 mph +/- though.

That sounds like a decent amount of weight for the Sunsetter. I bet it was a fun wave! Any pics?

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Matt: Surfer weight definitely makes a real difference. A whole crew of us took up surfing at the same time (2001 Sunscape), and the smaller the person, the more push they got from the wake, and the easier it was for them to go ropeless. A couple other things that might help:

1) You already have a lot of weight in the boat. You need to make sure that you have enough of it on just one side that the wake on that side looks clean, and the wake on the other side looks like mush. Sometimes even when we have a lot of weight in the boat, one person sitting on the wrong side of the boat is enough to make the wake fall apart;

2) Bigger boards for bigger people tend to really help. Hyperlite made/makes a Landlock that is a long and very bouyant board. There are more choices now for bigger boards than before;

3) You probably already have the right technique down for surfing, but a couple things you might try if you haven't tried them already: Stand up almost perfectly straight (but not rigid), and lean forward over the balls of your feet. You have to get weight on the balls of your feet, and lots of people when you tell them they need weight forward try to do it by squatting down and leaning forward (which merely results in them pushing their butt out over their heels - feels like you are putting weight on your toes, but you aren't); make sure your front leg is bent, with the knee out over the toes; and keep the board pointed at the back corner of the boat. You probably know all that, but if you haven't tried it, give it a shot. Good luck.

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Played with the setup a little this past weekend. I put 2 -260# sacs in the walk-through back to back and the 1100# sac in the rear on the port side. Also had three people in the boat but they were all girls so not much added weight there. Tried it with and without the wedge. Both waves were easily surfable with decently long pockets (7'-8'). The wave had better shape with the wedge down then with it up. At the same itme it also "felt" really steep (maybe because I haven't been on a wave that size?). Without the wedge the wave was equally as big just not as steep and not as clean....definitely surfable though. I'm not sure exactly what speed we were going because the sensors for the spedometer were clogged, I would guess it was right around 10 mph +/- though.

Maybe I need to move both 540# sacs to one side in the rear instead of having one across the back and one on the side. That would be almost equivalent to you 1100# sac on the side. I've never tried both smaller sacs in the front like that. I usually put only one up there and the other along the surf side. I'll test your setup the next time I go out and see what happens. Thanks!

Matt: Surfer weight definitely makes a real difference. A whole crew of us took up surfing at the same time (2001 Sunscape), and the smaller the person, the more push they got from the wake, and the easier it was for them to go ropeless. A couple other things that might help:

1) You already have a lot of weight in the boat. You need to make sure that you have enough of it on just one side that the wake on that side looks clean, and the wake on the other side looks like mush. Sometimes even when we have a lot of weight in the boat, one person sitting on the wrong side of the boat is enough to make the wake fall apart;

2) Bigger boards for bigger people tend to really help. Hyperlite made/makes a Landlock that is a long and very bouyant board. There are more choices now for bigger boards than before;

3) You probably already have the right technique down for surfing, but a couple things you might try if you haven't tried them already: Stand up almost perfectly straight (but not rigid), and lean forward over the balls of your feet. You have to get weight on the balls of your feet, and lots of people when you tell them they need weight forward try to do it by squatting down and leaning forward (which merely results in them pushing their butt out over their heels - feels like you are putting weight on your toes, but you aren't); make sure your front leg is bent, with the knee out over the toes; and keep the board pointed at the back corner of the boat. You probably know all that, but if you haven't tried it, give it a shot. Good luck.

I'm around 210lbs. My buddy who weighs about 150 came the closest to going rope-less. He was just giving it a little tug now and again to keep himself in the pocket. I had to keep a firm grip on the rope to keep from falling back. Us bigger guys also had the problem of the front of the board sinking in the water. This would stop when we sped up but then the pocket wasn't big or deep enough. It was a lose-lose type of thing.

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I wouldn't put any more weight in that boat. FWIW, the Broadcast really doesn't have much flotation, & you can make up for not adding more weight by getting a better, faster board with more flotation. I can't help too much with that, since I'm a bit out of the loop. But I would start by looking at some of the Inland Surfer & Phase 5 products, they'll treat you a lot better than that Broadcast. Stay away from the Landlock.

One thing that could get you by with the Broadcast would be to either remove the center fin, or both outer fins (leaving the big center fin). That will loosen up the board, but also make it a lot faster & may let you keep up with the boat a bit better. If you want to really loosen it & make it fast, take all of the fins out & put one of the smaller fins in the center. Greasy!

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martinarcher

I wouldn't put any more weight in that boat. FWIW, the Broadcast really doesn't have much flotation, & you can make up for not adding more weight by getting a better, faster board with more flotation. I can't help too much with that, since I'm a bit out of the loop. But I would start by looking at some of the Inland Surfer & Phase 5 products, they'll treat you a lot better than that Broadcast. Stay away from the Landlock.

One thing that could get you by with the Broadcast would be to either remove the center fin, or both outer fins (leaving the big center fin). That will loosen up the board, but also make it a lot faster & may let you keep up with the boat a bit better. If you want to really loosen it & make it fast, take all of the fins out & put one of the smaller fins in the center. Greasy!

We have an Inland Surfer Blue Lake and it is so fast it's unreal. Our CWB Ride keeps up to the Skier ropeless fine, but the Blue Lake with big fins makes a great fast board for going ropeless. I'm constantly pulling my weight back to slow the board down and stay in the pocket.

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I'm thinking I might take out a fin or two on the Broadcast and see if it makes it a little faster. I'm used to the looseness. I ride without fins on the wakeboard all the time.

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martinarcher

I actually have read that larger deeper fins help increase the speed of the board. I bought fins for my Inland Surfer that are huge. I know that board is really fast, but I have never ridden it finless to "measure" the difference. All I know is that board would be GREASY without fins! LOL.gif

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martinarcher

That's actually backward from how it normally works. Fins produce stability, but they create drag & slow the board down. The bigger the fin, the more drag is present.

See that makes total sense to me as I would think any extra object dragging though the water would create extra drag unless it was foiled to create lift (like a skyski). I remember buying my fins for my Blue Lake on the Future Fins website and I could swear they had something there in the fin selection section about a longer fin making th board faster. It pushed me toward a much larger fin than I would have originally bought. I'm happy with how the board rides keeps up with the boat, but with those two Ginsu sized fins there's certainly no spinning 360's. LOL.gif

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You might be surprised. Last summer slider pulled off his first 360 on a huge Liquid Force Venture that had those big, honkin fins in the back. He was behind a VLX though & when you have a big wave like that, a lot of this stuff comes down to technique & comfort level on the board, rather than the board itself.

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martinarcher

You might be surprised. Last summer slider pulled off his first 360 on a huge Liquid Force Venture that had those big, honkin fins in the back. He was behind a VLX though & when you have a big wave like that, a lot of this stuff comes down to technique & comfort level on the board, rather than the board itself.

Sweet. Glad to hear it's not impossible with those fins. I've been having fun slashing around on top of the wave with the CWB Ride.

My uncles VLX looks like it has a ton of potential for surf wake size. Riding with just the MLS and a three people in the surf rear corner it wasn't too bad. Not too steep, but nice. I think with a 750 in that rear trunk it would be a blast!

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  • 3 years later...

Reviving an old topic, but I feel I can help some of the DD sun setter guys. I haven't full tweaked my wave yet, however this is with 750 sac across the back 1/2-3/4ish full. L shaped sac, 1/2 full with large part to port side of engine, and a 400 sac in the bow walk way filled up to probably 300ish and another in front of the observers seat on the floor. This is a friend of mine surfing in the pic. He's riding an IS Kennan pro skim. I can ride the IS black pearl just as far back and I weight 195 lbs. I have no problems going rope less up to 20+ feet back. Speed is 12-12.2 mph. Still a long way to go to what we want but a great start and it's a proven contender for bigger folks as I'm not light at 195 and a black pearl is a 4'6'' skim board so there is no NEED per say for a huge board either. So far I've learned that the sunsetters wave is very steep with lots of side weight. She needs to list a little but not a lot, depending on whether you want a surf or skim style wave. I've also learned you can throw lots of normal "standard" surf logic out the window with this boat. If you cram a ton of weight in the back corner the wave will suck no matter how fast you go.

EDIT: My boat does NOT have a wedge.

photo_zpsb97db5e5.jpg

Edited by Fused96Bu
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  • 1 month later...

Looks good, I'm just starting to learn more about surfing and adding ballast. How much weight would you say you have in the boat/need to get a decent wake? We've got the same boat, just debating on what bags to buy. Thanks!

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