Fittings needed to adapt to ProX sacs to factory system

[Ndawg12]

Yep, the factory hose. Believe me, there was ALOT of grunting and cussing involved. I'll def keep an eye on it over the winter and see if I need to replace anything next year.

edit: the hoses are not 'fully' on the fittings. We got two barbs on and figured that was good enough when combined with a clamp

That's what I did with my "fake-a-lake" system. Needless to say I keep an eye on the proper operation of my bilge pump

[MadDogMike]

Here are the barb adapters you would need.

OK, so just to clarify, Model # 0821-07 check valve from here, and for each check valve two of the 3/4" S x 3/4" Barb Adapter from here. And these need to be attached to each other with PVC-glue, right?

And you put two check valves on each sac, one on the fill and one on the drain, then just cap the vent port on the sac, right?

Few questions:

1.) Do you really need a check valve on the drain line? (Was water siphoning out through the drain pump?)

2.) If you have no vent line, and some air was in the sac (say you just re-attached everything after de-winterization) would the check valve allow air to be "burped" through the drain line? This is my concern, that air would get in there and I think the sac is full of water, but really there's air trapped in it.

3.) If I kept my vent line, would I also need a check valve for it to prevent siphoning? (All these check valves are starting to add up!)

If anyone else has a different method, I'd like to hear their input, too. I don't want any manual valves (or electric check valves, either). I just want to be able to flip a switch to fill the sacs, have them stay full, then flip a switch to drain them.

thanks,

Mike

[Tao of Wake]

OK, so just to clarify, Model # 0821-07 check valve from here, and for each check valve two of the 3/4" S x 3/4" Barb Adapter from here. And these need to be attached to each other with PVC-glue, right?

And you put two check valves on each sac, one on the fill and one on the drain, then just cap the vent port on the sac, right?

Few questions:

1.) Do you really need a check valve on the drain line? (Was water siphoning out through the drain pump?)

2.) If you have no vent line, and some air was in the sac (say you just re-attached everything after de-winterization) would the check valve allow air to be "burped" through the drain line? This is my concern, that air would get in there and I think the sac is full of water, but really there's air trapped in it.

3.) If I kept my vent line, would I also need a check valve for it to prevent siphoning? (All these check valves are starting to add up!)

If anyone else has a different method, I'd like to hear their input, too. I don't want any manual valves (or electric check valves, either). I just want to be able to flip a switch to fill the sacs, have them stay full, then flip a switch to drain them.

thanks,

Mike

The links you provided are the correct items you need, and yes, you would use PVC cement/glue. If you haven't done this before, it's very easy. The cement comes with a brush attached to the screw-on lid. You just brush a very light coat on the barb adapter and then insert into the check valve. Let it dry for a couple hours and you are all set.

Yes, a check valve on both the fill and the drain. These are both to avoid siphoning. Yes, I just left the Fly High cap in the other port on the sac.

1. When I did not have the check valve on the drain line, I would get siphoning. I did have a loop in the drain line and had it mounted up as high under the gunnel as possible. I then just added the check valve without changing anything else, and I no longer get siphoning!

2. Yes, you could burp it that way. I just take the cap off the other port and then roll up the sac to get most of the air out.

3. I would recommend getting the check valve for the vent line if you keep it. I did have it this way, and I just put in a PVC tee on the drain line and then connected the two check valves - drain and vent - to this tee with a tube from the other port on the tee to the thru-hull. For this, I used these #436 adapters with this #405 threaded tee. I put the drain in the tee so that it went straight through to the output to the thru-hull. Again, this is to maximize the flow of water; that was my original intent for this as I wanted to minimize fill and drain times as we often switch surf sides throughout a session. I don't know if it was overkill, but I did use 1" tubing, tees, Fly High adapters, and check valves. The only 3/4" in the system are the ports in the sacs.

I had the same goals as you regarding the automation and simple use of the system. I am extremely happy with my setup. My next project is to create an easy way to winterize the entire ballast system on the boat. I don't want to risk having water left in a line or pump that could freeze and cause damage. I am going to put a tee in each fill line - port sac, port hard tank, stbd sac, stbd hard tank, and center hard tank - as close to the fill pump. The "side port" of the tee will go to a 5-port garden hose manifold (metal one from Lowes) that has shut-offs for each port (except the main that you would typically connect to the faucet) and mount this under the rear seat above the v-drive. I can then just close off the thru-hull shut-off for each fill pump, connect a pump to the input of the manifold, open the correct port on the manifold, and then pump AV (the pink stuff). For the sacs, I will remove them and then connect the fill line to the drain line so that the AV would just flow through to the thru-hull (bucket there to catch it). I then completely empty the sacs and store them hanging so any remaining water will dry out.

With this solution, I could also use this manifold to fill my other sacs that I put on the seats and bow to get that great surf wave. I have a quick disconnect on the input of the manifold that I can connect a hose with an adapter to connect to the sacs, open the appropriate port on the manifold, close the valve on the fill line (forgot to mention that; I will have a PVC ball valve just after the tee in each fill line), connect the hose to the sac, and then flip the switch for that pump. I can then just turn off the pump, move the hose to the next sac and then turn the pump back on. This will make it quite easy to fill the sacs. To empty them, I will still need a standalone pump unless anyone else has any great ideas!

[Ndawg12]

I got lost in your link. If the adaptors and check valves are slip on, which I wouldn't recommend, then yes you'll need pvc glue or cement. If they're threaded, I just used teflon pipe tape.

I'm not sure who's setup you're referring to. I only used check valves on the fill lines to prevent the sack from draining back out through the fill pump. I did hook my vent back up. I have used mine once since I installed it and it was not siphoning out through either drain or vent line.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Ndawg12

[MadDogMike]

I'm not sure who's setup you're referring to. I only used check valves on the fill lines to prevent the sack from draining back out through the fill pump. I did hook my vent back up. I have used mine once since I installed it and it was not siphoning out through either drain or vent line.

I was initially asking about kernaltao's setup, but I'm seeking all the input I can get. I'll probably try it your way first, since it involves fewer check valves and I already have my vent lines plumbed. I'm not entirely sure how my sacks are draining, I just know they are.

I could understand my bow sac draining through the fill pump, since the sac is so much higher when running, but, would have never guessed that the rear sacs were draining through the fill pump. I have the fill line going to the back port on the sac. I guess when you're up and running the water weight pushes to the back and up through the fill hose? Almost seems impossible, but it sounds like several people here have confirmed it.

It kinds seems surprising you don't have water siphoning through the drain pump. Since the drain port is on the bottom of the bag and has all the weight of the water on top of it, it seems almost certain a flow of water, once started, would continue. But often times things are not as the "seem". It probably helps that I have my sacs situated so the drain pump is at the front. It doesn't pump the bag quite as dry, but it probably prevents some siphoning. Kernaltao, are your sacs situated so the drain pump is on the front or the back?

thanks,

Mike

[Ndawg12]

I was initially asking about kernaltao's setup, but I'm seeking all the input I can get. I'll probably try it your way first, since it involves fewer check valves and I already have my vent lines plumbed. I'm not entirely sure how my sacks are draining, I just know they are.

I could understand my bow sac draining through the fill pump, since the sac is so much higher when running, but, would have never guessed that the rear sacs were draining through the fill pump. I have the fill line going to the back port on the sac. I guess when you're up and running the water weight pushes to the back and up through the fill hose? Almost seems impossible, but it sounds like several people here have confirmed it.

It kinds seems surprising you don't have water siphoning through the drain pump. Since the drain port is on the bottom of the bag and has all the weight of the water on top of it, it seems almost certain a flow of water, once started, would continue. But often times things are not as the "seem". It probably helps that I have my sacs situated so the drain pump is at the front. It doesn't pump the bag quite as dry, but it probably prevents some siphoning. Kernaltao, are your sacs situated so the drain pump is on the front or the back?

thanks,

Mike

No offense but I think you're the only one with this configuration, I think I read about it in another post, I remember something about duct tape . What you're saying makes sense in theory, but like I said, I've only tested mine once and I didn't see any leakage.

[Brad B]

OK, so just to clarify, Model # 0821-07 check valve from here, and for each check valve two of the 3/4" S x 3/4" Barb Adapter from here. And these need to be attached to each other with PVC-glue, right?

And you put two check valves on each sac, one on the fill and one on the drain, then just cap the vent port on the sac, right?

Few questions:

1.) Do you really need a check valve on the drain line? (Was water siphoning out through the drain pump?)

2.) If you have no vent line, and some air was in the sac (say you just re-attached everything after de-winterization) would the check valve allow air to be "burped" through the drain line? This is my concern, that air would get in there and I think the sac is full of water, but really there's air trapped in it.

3.) If I kept my vent line, would I also need a check valve for it to prevent siphoning? (All these check valves are starting to add up!)

If anyone else has a different method, I'd like to hear their input, too. I don't want any manual valves (or electric check valves, either). I just want to be able to flip a switch to fill the sacs, have them stay full, then flip a switch to drain them.

thanks,

Mike

1. You don't put a check valve on the drain - you need a manual ball valve or solenoid to open the valve when the drain is on - but you only need this if sac pressure is causing the drain to leak - no siphon effect but usually loops will avoid the pressure leak problem.

2. Vent line on the highest port of the sac will burp the sac and will let you know the sac is full by releasing water - no siphon issues here and no need for any valves.

3. No siphon issues and no valves needed unless you want to get every drop of water in possible and then you could use a ball valve and close it off after the sac burped and keep filling up to the point right before the sac bursts. BTW Tsunami and other plastic impeller pumps are unlikely to have enough force to burst a sac alone but the metal and rubber impeller pumps do.

[Tao of Wake]

I was initially asking about kernaltao's setup, but I'm seeking all the input I can get. I'll probably try it your way first, since it involves fewer check valves and I already have my vent lines plumbed. I'm not entirely sure how my sacks are draining, I just know they are.

I could understand my bow sac draining through the fill pump, since the sac is so much higher when running, but, would have never guessed that the rear sacs were draining through the fill pump. I have the fill line going to the back port on the sac. I guess when you're up and running the water weight pushes to the back and up through the fill hose? Almost seems impossible, but it sounds like several people here have confirmed it.

It kinds seems surprising you don't have water siphoning through the drain pump. Since the drain port is on the bottom of the bag and has all the weight of the water on top of it, it seems almost certain a flow of water, once started, would continue. But often times things are not as the "seem". It probably helps that I have my sacs situated so the drain pump is at the front. It doesn't pump the bag quite as dry, but it probably prevents some siphoning. Kernaltao, are your sacs situated so the drain pump is on the front or the back?

thanks,

Mike

The drain pump is in the back of the sac; toward the stern of the boat.

[MadDogMike]

No offense but I think you're the only one with this configuration

You mean the configuration of putting the drain pump at the front? That's the way the rear factory tanks are in the '04 VLX, so I assumed Malibu engineered it that way to prevent leaking/siphoning through the drain pump, so I just plumbed my sacs the same way. I'm more concerned about the sacs not staying full than I am about pumping every last drop out of them. I can always swap them around if I decide to later.

1. You don't put a check valve on the drain - you need a manual ball valve or solenoid to open the valve when the drain is on - but you only need this if sac pressure is causing the drain to leak - no siphon effect but usually loops will avoid the pressure leak problem.

2. Vent line on the highest port of the sac will burp the sac and will let you know the sac is full by releasing water - no siphon issues here and no need for any valves.

3. No siphon issues and no valves needed unless you want to get every drop of water in possible and then you could use a ball valve and close it off after the sac burped and keep filling up to the point right before the sac bursts. BTW Tsunami and other plastic impeller pumps are unlikely to have enough force to burst a sac alone but the metal and rubber impeller pumps do.

I was referring kernaltao's setup in that list, and that is the way his is setup. (Check valves on the drains and no vent lines.) I also wanted to avoid manual ball valves or electric solenoid valves. The latter is unnecessarily complicated and the former is a PITA, IMHO.

The drain pump is in the back of the sac; toward the stern of the boat.

Maybe that's why you were getting siphoning through the drain pump. (?) All that pressure pushing back could be pushing through your drain pump. Then again, Ndawg12 has his in the back and says he's not getting any siphoning, even without check valves. Guess I'll try it Ndawg12's way first, then if that doesn't work I'll try your way next.

thanks,

Mike

Edited June 5, 2010 by MadDogMike

[Tao of Wake]

Maybe that's why you were getting siphoning through the drain pump. (?) All that pressure pushing back could be pushing through your drain pump. Then again, Ndawg12 has his in the back and says he's not getting any siphoning, even without check valves. Guess I'll try it Ndawg12's way first, then if that doesn't work I'll try your way next.

thanks,

Mike

What you need to be concerned about is the height of the column of water. If the water in the sac is higher than the highest point in the drain line, it will push water out the drain and then the siphoning takes effect and drains the sac. With my setup, if the water in the sac is higher than the highest point of the drain line (very unlikely as I have the drain line up under the gunnel), it will push water out but then when the water in the sac becomes lower than the highest point in the drain line, the combination of the loop in the line and the check valve will break the siphon.

[skicrave]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I skimmed most of them to bring me up to speed. These recommendations apply to the rear bags only, center bags or bow bags will be different:

Fill Hose

A vented loop or check valve must be used to prevent the bag from siphon draining. Technically a check valve is sufficient because rear bags will not siphon fill, but many people (including the factory) will just use anti-siphon vented loops for all of their bags to keep the install consistent.

Vent Hose

If the top of the bag will be higher than the thru-hull fitting on the side of the boat when the bag is full you will have problems with the bag draining through the vent hose until the water level in the bag is below the fitting on the side of the boat. This can be solved a number of ways, but for most situations simply routing the vent hose as high under the gunnel as possible is sufficient. Other solutions we've used or seen our customers use is to connect each bag to the vent fitting on the opposite side of the boat, or to extend the vent hose and run it up under the gunnel towards the bow of the boat. No check valves or anti-siphon vented loops are necessary here.

Drain Hose

See my comments on the vent hose above, this situation is exactly the same.

These comments apply to both bags and tanks, but from 2004 on the factory installed anti-siphon vented loops on all boats, so it's typically not a problem.

Be careful with the check valves you use, any swing type valve will be installation angle dependent, so it's crucial they're installed correctly.

[shawndoggy]

Crew, I've just read this whole thread in anticipation of hard-plumbing 750s into the vride. I'm trying to develop a parts list:

1. 3/4" hose from Lowes

2. Fly Hi w736 x 6

3. Fly Hi w742 x 4 (90* bends on drain and vent at back of bag)

4. Fly Hi w740 x 2 (straight connections at front of bag)

5. Teflon tape, hose clamps, etc (misc McGuyver materials from Shawndoggy's lair)

Because my boat is 2006 will I have vented loops so I don't need to worry about check valves?

Am I missing anything else?