Ethanol - Big Issues

[footnlongline]

While I am certainly no advocate for ethanol in fuels and see no benefit other than a farm subsidy, I 've seen no real adverse problems other than possible reduced volumetric efficiency. We have had 10% ethanol in our gas for a long time here. I change my filters and water separating filter every spring and my boat runs fine. The additional steps recommended for lay-up and stabilization are good practices to adopt weather you have ethanol in your gas or not. I've yet to see 15% here in the midwest but won't be surprised if it shows up this summer. I'm kinda tired with all this "change" though.

[edwin]

I have heard that too, fuel treatment and changing out fuel tank lines and fittings (plastic fittings to brass) on your portable tanks will help a lot. If it is a 2 stroke i would image that you might want to richen up your mix since ethanol acts like a degreaser it might affect getting proper lubrication.

-Paul

Given the fuel quality, my go-to guy for the Merc 250 Pro XS on my other boat is adamant about using the following 'cocktail' of additives for all 2 strokes:

1oz Merc Quickleen, 1oz Marine Stabil, and 1-2oz of Seafoam to every 6 gallons of gas.

At a minimum, he also suggests (more like demands) that Stabil be added for gas that's not going be used within 2 weeks of purchase.

[Bobby Light]

While I am certainly no advocate for ethanol in fuels and see no benefit other than a farm subsidy, I 've seen no real adverse problems other than possible reduced volumetric efficiency. We have had 10% ethanol in our gas for a long time here. I change my filters and water separating filter every spring and my boat runs fine. The additional steps recommended for lay-up and stabilization are good practices to adopt weather you have ethanol in your gas or not. I've yet to see 15% here in the midwest but won't be surprised if it shows up this summer. I'm kinda tired with all this "change" though.

It's not something you can see anyways, it takes time to cause problems. It increases maintenance costs, reeks havoc on almost any gasket you have in your fuel system, and degrades almost any component it comes into contact with.

Ethanol isn't mixed with gasoline at refineries and shipped via pipelines for a reason. Pipeline companies can't afford to risk the inevitable equipment failure and the potential for leaks and spills damaging their reputation in their local communities.

Ethanol is as worthless as the law that mandates it.

[footnlongline]

It's not something you can see anyways, it takes time to cause problems. It increases maintenance costs, reeks havoc on almost any gasket you have in your fuel system, and degrades almost any component it comes into contact with.

Ethanol isn't mixed with gasoline at refineries and shipped via pipelines for a reason. Pipeline companies can't afford to risk the inevitable equipment failure and the potential for leaks and spills damaging their reputation in their local communities.

Ethanol is as worthless as the law that mandates it.

While I agree to it's uselessness, I have been puting it in my boat for almost 10 years and have not had any fuel related problems, knock on wood or fiberglass.

[Bake's Marine]

my '04 response has an inline fuel filter.

would the addition of a Fuel Water Seperator Assembly help avoid some of the problems caused by using e15?

I would probably switch from the inline to the fuel water assembly in it's place. Indmar has always said at service school that a fuel water separator is not needed. The thing it avoid would be to increase resistance on your fuel pump pulling fuel from your tank. Our pumps are great pushers but when they need to suck fuel... the suck (pun intended) they over heat and create performance issues. So if I added a fuel water separator i would do a lot of homework first to make sure its not going to increase that load on the fuel pump.

While I am certainly no advocate for ethanol in fuels and see no benefit other than a farm subsidy, I 've seen no real adverse problems other than possible reduced volumetric efficiency. We have had 10% ethanol in our gas for a long time here. I change my filters and water separating filter every spring and my boat runs fine. The additional steps recommended for lay-up and stabilization are good practices to adopt weather you have ethanol in your gas or not. I've yet to see 15% here in the midwest but won't be surprised if it shows up this summer. I'm kinda tired with all this "change" though.

I've seen plenty of issues from ethanol, mostly in older boats with aluminum tanks, older fuel lines and I've even seen issues on newer (mid 2000's) boats with fuel line pieces (looked like grains of sand almost) clogging all the injectors (5 cases in the past year, all were boats that were not laid up properly, they did not use sta-bil) But that was my point of this message to raise awareness to make sure people are using stabil and treating fuel to avoid the issues that can crop up.

-Paul

[Laycon Row]

From the Indmar Manual:

"Ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol is acceptable as long as it is a blend and the blended fuel contains no more than 10% ethanol."

I doubt Malibu / Indmar will honor warranties on fuel system components after E15 goes into service.

[RLXISD]

Yes, but it will never make sense to me as to why were not allowed to drill for oil but it is OK to burn our food.

The corn that is used to make ethanol is not food grade corn.

[martinarcher]

I would probably switch from the inline to the fuel water assembly in it's place. Indmar has always said at service school that a fuel water separator is not needed. The thing it avoid would be to increase resistance on your fuel pump pulling fuel from your tank. Our pumps are great pushers but when they need to suck fuel... the suck (pun intended) they over heat and create performance issues. So if I added a fuel water separator i would do a lot of homework first to make sure its not going to increase that load on the fuel pump.

I've seen plenty of issues from ethanol, mostly in older boats with aluminum tanks, older fuel lines and I've even seen issues on newer (mid 2000's) boats with fuel line pieces (looked like grains of sand almost) clogging all the injectors (5 cases in the past year, all were boats that were not laid up properly, they did not use sta-bil) But that was my point of this message to raise awareness to make sure people are using stabil and treating fuel to avoid the issues that can crop up.

-Paul

That's the fuel water assembly I use and I have had good luck with it. I change the filter/separator every spring and use Stabil during the year and run double the concentration over the winter lay up. Our Skier has an aluminum tank as so far so good. I do fill up at a gas station here in town that does not advertise Ethanol in their fuel. The rest state that up to 10% of their fuel is Ethanol.

[Bill_AirJunky]

The corn that is used to make ethanol is not food grade corn.

I read some place that it is food grade..... just not food for humans.

And it's not that the corn itself that matters. But the farmer, his field, equipment & time.

[REW]

The corn that is used to make ethanol is not food grade corn.

The corn may not be food grade but the land it was grown on is "food grade"

[DIE2SURF]

The corn may not be food grade but the land it was grown on is "food grade"

Exactly! Well put.

[ed obermeier]

Question to the Crew - I use 91 - 92 octane premium in my '05 RLXI 350 Monsoon, occasionally I'll use 89 mid-grade which the manual says is OK but usually I run premium. Is it safe to assume that premium gas has no ethanol added to it or no? My assumption is that the lower grades I run in my vehicles (87 octane) is where they're adding ethanol. Anyone really know?

TIA, Ed

[REW]

Question to the Crew - I use 91 - 92 octane premium in my '05 RLXI 350 Monsoon, occasionally I'll use 89 mid-grade which the manual says is OK but usually I run premium. Is it safe to assume that premium gas has no ethanol added to it or no? My assumption is that the lower grades I run in my vehicles (87 octane) is where they're adding ethanol. Anyone really know?

TIA, Ed

By mandate it will be in all gas. In the mid west when I travel there the E85 has a higher octane rating than the regular gas (E10).

[Sullivan]

I recently watched a show on TV about Ethanol and the effects on marine engines. Specifically it was focused towards outboards and they interviewed several shops about what they have seen in the outboards here in the Pacific NW. They are swamped with Ethanol related problems and in the end they said that this has become such a big problem that they changed the law to allow stations to sell gas without any Ethanol for marine use. I have one station close to where I live that sells the real McCoy and there should be more stations with it close to marine areas. I would suggest asking around.

Just called the station I have been buying ethanol free gas from and asked if they still had it since I had not purchased any since last fall and they do have all Ethanol free gas and will have it for good.

42411 Northeast Yale Bridge Road Amboy, WA 98601-4603 - (360) 247-5529

Edited February 27, 2010 by Sullivan

[WakingMeHappy]

The corn that is used to make ethanol is not food grade corn.

Then let's feed it to the cows. We need more methane gas anyway.

[Bobby Light]

I recently watched a show on TV about Ethanol and the effects on marine engines. Specifically it was focused towards outboards and they interviewed several shops about what they have seen in the outboards here in the Pacific NW. They are swamped with Ethanol related problems and in the end they said that this has become such a big problem that they changed the law to allow stations to sell gas without any Ethanol for marine use. I have one station close to where I live that sells the real McCoy and there should be more stations with it close to marine areas. I would suggest asking around.

Just called the station I have been buying ethanol free gas from and asked if they still had it since I had not purchased any since last fall and they do have all Ethanol free gas and will have it for good.

42411 Northeast Yale Bridge Road Amboy, WA 98601-4603 - (360) 247-5529

Any idea where to find it elsewhere closer to the seattle area?

[Sullivan]

Google for it and see what comes up. I did and I found several stations in the Vancouver area that have it. I'm sure there are lots in the Seattle area.

[medicdiver]

Most Marathon gas stations dont use ethanol, and I hear Phillips 66 in the midwest dont either. I know the ones in my area are 100% gas, no ethanol. West coast is different

[NorCaliBu]

Pure-Gas Website lists every station that carries ethanol free gasoline.

If you're in Cali, don't bother even looking.

[Chia]

if you want to test your fuel for ethanol, here is how: from http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ethanoltest.html

Testing fuel for ethanol

The following test can be performed to determine the presence of ethanol in gasoline.

On a test tube or olive bottle, make a permanent line about two inches from the bottom.

Fill with water to this line, then fill the tube to the top with gasoline.

Cover the tube, agitate it then let it stand.

Ethanol mixes with water and the two will separate out together. Therefore, after mixing the water and the gasoline, if the water level appears to have increased, then the fuel contains ethanol and should not be used.

Ethanol fuels can damage the rubber and aluminum components of your aircraft fuel system. Ethanol increases the volatility of fuel, and hence the possibility of vapor lock also increases. Ethanol may vent off at altitude, reducing both range and octane. For these reasons fuel containing ethanol must never be used in airplanes.

[REW]

if you want to test your fuel for ethanol, here is how: from http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ethanoltest.html

Testing fuel for ethanol

The following test can be performed to determine the presence of ethanol in gasoline.

On a test tube or olive bottle, make a permanent line about two inches from the bottom.

Fill with water to this line, then fill the tube to the top with gasoline.

Cover the tube, agitate it then let it stand.

Ethanol mixes with water and the two will separate out together. Therefore, after mixing the water and the gasoline, if the water level appears to have increased, then the fuel contains ethanol and should not be used.

Ethanol fuels can damage the rubber and aluminum components of your aircraft fuel system. Ethanol increases the volatility of fuel, and hence the possibility of vapor lock also increases. Ethanol may vent off at altitude, reducing both range and octane. For these reasons fuel containing ethanol must never be used in airplanes.

Did you get the FAA's warning about biodiesel in jet fuel??

REW

[Sullivan]

Pure-Gas Website lists every station that carries ethanol free gasoline.

If you're in Cali, don't bother even looking.

This site is not accurate at all. There are quite a few more than the three listed on the site for Washington.

[martinarcher]

This site is not accurate at all. There are quite a few more than the three listed on the site for Washington.

Same goes for PA, but it looks like you can help to expand the website by entering more stations that you know of.

[NorCaliBu]

This site is not accurate at all. There are quite a few more than the three listed on the site for Washington.

Good call. More checking...I came up with BuyRealGas. It lists a couple in the delta (B&W and Spindrift marinas) as well as a marina in Napa. Nothing in the Sierra Foothills at all. Not even any in the Sac Area.

[tvano]

I would probably switch from the inline to the fuel water assembly in it's place. Indmar has always said at service school that a fuel water separator is not needed. The thing it avoid would be to increase resistance on your fuel pump pulling fuel from your tank. Our pumps are great pushers but when they need to suck fuel... the suck (pun intended) they over heat and create performance issues. So if I added a fuel water separator i would do a lot of homework first to make sure its not going to increase that load on the fuel pump.

-Paul

if the kids at indmar are happy w/o a fuel water separator then i'm going to stay there, too. no need to complicate the fuel delivery system.

thanks for the good feedback. tvano