Two reversible pumps or Four pump system

[Brad3607]

Okay I am tired of throwing pumps over the side so I am starting the ballast system on my boat. I am curious about everyones opinion on using two reversible pumps as opposed to two pumps to fill and two pumps to drain.

I am leaning towards the two pump system becuase it would take much less electric wiring and much less plumbing in the boat. I know the reversible pumps are quite a bit more money but the savings on hose, fittings and wiring would almost cover the cost of the difference.

Please give me any and all advice.

Brad

[fastjohnny]

Okay I am tired of throwing pumps over the side so I am starting the ballast system on my boat. I am curious about everyones opinion on using two reversible pumps as opposed to two pumps to fill and two pumps to drain.

I am leaning towards the two pump system becuase it would take much less electric wiring and much less plumbing in the boat. I know the reversible pumps are quite a bit more money but the savings on hose, fittings and wiring would almost cover the cost of the difference.

Please give me any and all advice.

Brad

I can't make any expert claims, as I'm a beginner on ballast myself. But from all the research I've done, and it's been ALOT, I see very few people doing it the way you're suggesting.

Wiring, hose, etc, is cheap, as are the aerator pumps. The separate pumps for fill and drain also use way less amps, and are faster to boot.

[fever5]

Okay I am tired of throwing pumps over the side so I am starting the ballast system on my boat. I am curious about everyones opinion on using two reversible pumps as opposed to two pumps to fill and two pumps to drain.

I am leaning towards the two pump system becuase it would take much less electric wiring and much less plumbing in the boat. I know the reversible pumps are quite a bit more money but the savings on hose, fittings and wiring would almost cover the cost of the difference.

Please give me any and all advice.

Brad

I can't make any expert claims, as I'm a beginner on ballast myself. But from all the research I've done, and it's been ALOT, I see very few people doing it the way you're suggesting.

Wiring, hose, etc, is cheap, as are the aerator pumps. The separate pumps for fill and drain also use way less amps, and are faster to boot.

I'm also a beginner...but you will NEVER justify a bi-directional system on cost. Min price i've seen is for the jabco is around $230 compared to $40 for a tsuanumi. I love the simiplicity of a bi directional system but the fact that I live in a cold climate, and the price of the pump scares me...

Bake's marine has a diagram on this forum somewhere of a really great setup. It uses the stock pump to fill both MLS tank and sac via a switchable Y joint. IT does add one pump to the system per sac to empty. This system uses a Y joint to connect the MLS and SAC pump out hoses to the common drain hole.

Personally if you wanted a completely automated system you could just add a solenoid or two to the fill lines to switch one or the other off...but this would add cost and complexity...

Edited September 11, 2009 by fever5

[Brad3607]

Guys thanks for the input and I hope to hear from some more people in the future. I found the Johnson pumps for 165.00 a piece wich is still high compaired to the others. If the reversible pumps are mounted properly simply removing the impeller cover would drain all the water out of the pump. I also like the fact of not having to drill as many holes in the boat.

Brad

[martinarcher]

Here's my system...

I went with 4 Tsunami pumps because they were cheaper and faster and if they need replaced it's super easy (just change the motor/impeller cartridge no need to touch the plumbing). The wiring is a piece of cake. The only downside for me was having to run double the hosing, but it isn't all that bad. The system works great.

[Slurpee]

I stared long and hard at those reversible pumps, but after the major $$ of replacing my shower pump a couple times in a couple years I went with a fill and drain pair of aerator pumps. The extra hose didn't really add up to much more than if I'd done a reversible... maybe $50. The wiring was a bother, but by and far the real pain and expense was in adding the thru-hole, seacock*, shut-off valve, tee fixtures.

Here's my thread on the install I did.

Slurpee's Ballast Install

There's unending discussions about preventing siphoning action of auto-fill, auto-drain, etc. Just stay in the ballast forum and lurk. I just skipped through all the loops and extra hose and installed solenoid valves.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Slurpee

[Stanley Wheelhouse]

Here's my system...

I went with 4 Tsunami pumps because they were cheaper and faster and if they need replaced it's super easy (just change the motor/impeller cartridge no need to touch the plumbing). The wiring is a piece of cake. The only downside for me was having to run double the hosing, but it isn't all that bad. The system works great.

do a search for 247 surf sac is here

i went with bidirectional pumps. they fill fast but drain slow. i am going to s system like the one on the video because the tsunami pumps are that much faster.

[Chia]

Guys thanks for the input and I hope to hear from some more people in the future. I found the Johnson pumps for 165.00 a piece wich is still high compaired to the others. If the reversible pumps are mounted properly simply removing the impeller cover would drain all the water out of the pump. I also like the fact of not having to drill as many holes in the boat.

Brad

is this the pump you are talking about? The Johnson F4B-11 Ultra Ballast

Designed to quickly fill or, when reversed, drain a ballast tank at a rate of more than 45 l/min (12 GPM), that is 720 gph.

That is not bad for a reversible ballast impeller pump. The only concern i would have is remembering to turn it off when it is draining on the way back to the dock or ramp. I sometimes get in, turn off the engine and go "where is that humming noise coming from"? you can't let that happen with an impeller pump plus you will still need a vent line.

[Brad3607]

Guys thanks for the links and Slurpee I have looked at your system several times in the past few months. My 25 LSV has the big block and space is tight under the engine.

Cervelo that is the pump except it does not have the switch on top. They kind of mis represent them advertising they have a run dry shut off but if its already burned up the impeller its a bit late. I actually spent this evening in a friends MC and he has 3 of these pumps for six bags a total of around 2800 lbs and they filled in about 15 minutes which I think is fine as we spend 15 minutes arguing over who is riding first. I don't want to spend a fortune replacing impellers or just the hassle of changing them. I will crawl around in my boat in the morning and look at where I can mount the Tsunami style pumps.

Thanks again for all the help

Brad

Edited September 12, 2009 by Brad3607

[Slurpee]

Guys thanks for the links and Slurpee I have looked at your system several times in the past few months. My 25 LSV has the big block and space is tight under the engine.

Cervelo that is the pump except it does not have the switch on top. They kind of mis represent them advertising they have a run dry shut off but if its already burned up the impeller its a bit late. I actually spent this evening in a friends MC and he has 3 of these pumps for six bags a total of around 2800 lbs and they filled in about 15 minutes which I think is fine as we spend 15 minutes arguing over who is riding first. I don't want to spend a fortune replacing impellers or just the hassle of changing them. I will crawl around in my boat in the morning and look at where I can mount the Tsunami style pumps.

Thanks again for all the help

Brad

Yeah, it was all kinds of tight in my engine as well. I probably could have used the drain plug as my thru-hull, but it was only 1/2". Adding another 1" and all the hardware to support it was tricky. Definitely only room for one setup so I had to tee off the second pump. There was no room for it on that side of the engine so I had to loop it under drive shaft and secure the pump to the raw water intake to keep the hose out of the way of the drive shaft. I didn't the first time out and the drive shaft sliced nicely through the hose I ran underneath it (reinforcement and everything) and I had an anti-bilge pump.

I'm eager to see how yours works out. Post lots of pics.

Cheers,

Bryan

[saburkhart]

I set mine up with the reversible for a couple of reasons. Like you said it was easier to wire/plump. Include in that that it prevents backflow by default so no need for check valves. and it was self priming so I could put the pump where I want w/o the concern of above or below water level. It may not be as fast, but to me the difference is minimal. I got my pumps (3) for about 100 ea (simmer bw85 I believe - I'll check model number later if your interested). It was a few years ago so I don't know if prices change or if it is even available. I was concerned about putting it near the engine compartment due to fumes, but was able to mount them under a seat that I felt was isolated enough

[saburkhart]

here's the pump. Should have googled before my post http://www.thehardwarecity.com/getProductD...tml?sku=5125224 It dosen't say it is reversible, but at the time I did my system lots of people on discussion boards were using them. just revese polarity and it works fine in reverse. As I recall most people were using relays which I did not do. I hope to add them in the future if I get time and figure out how to wire them

[skicrave]

Both impeller and aerator pumps have their pros and cons, the important thing is to ensure that the system you install is designed specifically for the type of pump you use in order to ensure proper operation. For more information on the differences between impeller and aerator pumps, and how they compare, check out our post on ballast pumps explained.

If cost is a consideration, go with aerator pumps. So long as it's designed correctly you'll have a system that works perfectly, is fast and totally reliable (just like Malibu's MLS systems which use aerator pumps).

If you want to limit the number of holes you need to drill in the boat, or if the bags are going to be visible in the boat, then an impeller pump may be the best options.

Ultimately, this decision will be different for everyone depending on their budget, the layout of the system, and a number of other constraints, but both options will result in perfectly functional systems as long as they are designed correctly.

If you have any other questions or would like some additional feedback let me know and I'll be happy to help out wherever I can.

[Meyerbu]

here's the pump. Should have googled before my post http://www.thehardwarecity.com/getProductD...tml?sku=5125224 It dosen't say it is reversible, but at the time I did my system lots of people on discussion boards were using them. just revese polarity and it works fine in reverse. As I recall most people were using relays which I did not do. I hope to add them in the future if I get time and figure out how to wire them

How many pounds of ballast do you have? how long does it take the 3 pumps to fill the sacks up?

[saburkhart]

I can't give you a good answer for that. I used the t plug for my pick up and it is not big enough to use more than one pump at a time. I have a 540 in the locker that takes about 8 minutes to fill and most of the time that is all I use. I have another sack in each locker, but can't remember the size 440's I think. I've been thinking about changing to filling from the water intake or adding a through hull. Usually I can turn on the pump and by time I get the rope out and the board on the one sac is nearly full. I'm sure it would be better if my boat had a through hull fitting, but I can't bring myself to do it

[skicrave]

The bilge plug fitting is a 3/4" orifice, which supports a maximum of 2,200GPH, so there's plenty of volume there for more than one pump. Of course there are situations when a dedicated thru-hull intake should be installed, but this probably isn't one of them.

[Brad3607]

The bilge plug fitting is a 3/4" orifice, which supports a maximum of 2,200GPH, so there's plenty of volume there for more than one pump. Of course there are situations when a dedicated thru-hull intake should be installed, but this probably isn't one of them.

Guys, thanks for all the input and Ski its good to hear the 3/4 fitting will let that much water in as I will use it to feed the two pumps in the rear of the boat. I have decided on a hybrid system using two reversible Johnson Ultra ballast pumps for the 4 bags in the back. I took a day last week and installed half the system and will post some pics in a couple days.

Starboard- I used to 750 lb bags daisy chained together the first 750 on the starboard side is in the compartment next to the engine and the second 750 is under the seat just in front of it. I put the boat in sunday for some surfing and was excited to see how well it worked and was very pleased with the outcome. I forgot time the fill as I had 4 kids in the boat and a few newbie adults so I was getting ropes out/ tubes put up and various other things, but they both filled nicely in around 12 to 15 minutes. I will go back and add a vent to keep from overfilling of the bags as well as I am putting off drilling the first hole as long as possible.

Portsided- I have not orded the bags yet but I will put a 535 lb fatsac in front of the batteries in the compartment next to the engine and a 440 lb under the seat on that side of the boat. I will used the same reversible pump configuration on that side now that I know it works well.

Front of the boat- The Ski Locker on this 25LSV is huge so I put a 750 in it. I am still waiting on a Tsunami 1200 to fill this bag so I just hooked the bag to the installed ball valve and let it autofill as its below the waterline which filled a 750 much faster than I expected. I already had Johnson 750 gph that I used to drain bag when I was finished. The system was not finished yet so I just turned the ball valve off unhooked and plug the fill hose and hooked up the drain hose and pumped it out. Now that I know the systems will work as planed I will drill the vent holes and run the lines as well as the drain line for the front bag/bags as I will add more bags under the front seats in the spring. I did not use a reversible pump in the ski locker as the reversible pumps can't get submerged or be in an area where they get splashed with a lot of water and my ski locker always seems to have water in it.

The electic switches- I had a couple extra acc. switches on the dash that had nothing wired to them and upon looking at the factory fuseblock the boat was wired for a factory MLS system so I just pulled off those and wired to the extra switches. I will order the Factory MLS switch covers from bakes once everything is complete.

I have read this several times and still seems a bit confusing even to me so if you have any questions let me know. This system will require me to drill only three holes in the boat two vents and one vent/drain.

[Chia]

The bilge plug fitting is a 3/4" orifice, which supports a maximum of 2,200GPH, so there's plenty of volume there for more than one pump. Of course there are situations when a dedicated thru-hull intake should be installed, but this probably isn't one of them.

That is a great piece of information. I can easily put in a "T" fitting and run 2 - 800gph pumps from the same thru-hull.

thanks

[txwakejunkie]

The bilge plug fitting is a 3/4" orifice, which supports a maximum of 2,200GPH, so there's plenty of volume there for more than one pump. Of course there are situations when a dedicated thru-hull intake should be installed, but this probably isn't one of them.

That is a great piece of information. I can easily put in a "T" fitting and run 2 - 800gph pumps from the same thru-hull.

thanks

I would take the 2200gph with a grain of salt. Just because that is the max that a 3/4' fitting can flow doesn't mean that you will ever see it. It would take a large amount of pressure to reach that level, more then any pump in your boat will do. The pumps we use do good to reach 10psi and at that rate one 3/4 inlet is good for one pump, you can add one but you will see a large drop in fill time. If you dont mind the fill time then it doesnt matter. I like fast fill times, so I want to supply the pump with as much water as I can get it. Every foot you add to the line decreases its pressure, decrease in pressure means decrease in flow. Look at the chart on page 12; this will give you an idea of how many GPH pumps like this lose in a short distance. If you want to keep fill tiimes up and less strain on your pumps, you need to supply them with as much water as you can.

http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/fil...YSTEMS-VENT.pdf

hope this helps.

Edited September 22, 2009 by txwakejunkie

[Tao of Wake]

The bilge plug fitting is a 3/4" orifice, which supports a maximum of 2,200GPH, so there's plenty of volume there for more than one pump. Of course there are situations when a dedicated thru-hull intake should be installed, but this probably isn't one of them.

That is a great piece of information. I can easily put in a "T" fitting and run 2 - 800gph pumps from the same thru-hull.

thanks

I would take the 2200gph with a grain of salt. Just because that is the max that a 3/4' fitting can flow doesn't mean that you will ever see it. It would take a large amount of pressure to reach that level, more then any pump in your boat will do. The pumps we use do good to reach 10psi and at that rate one 3/4 inlet is good for one pump, you can add one but you will see a large drop in fill time. If you dont mind the fill time then it doesnt matter. I like fast fill times, so I want to supply the pump with as much water as I can get it. Every foot you add to the line decreases its pressure, decrease in pressure means decrease in flow. Look at the chart on page 12; this will give you an idea of how many GPH pumps like this lose in a short distance. If you want to keep fill tiimes up and less strain on your pumps, you need to supply them with as much water as you can.

http://www.attwoodmarine.com/userfiles/fil...YSTEMS-VENT.pdf

hope this helps.

My '07 VLX came stock with two of the 800 GPH pumps connected to the same 3/4" thru hull on a "T" (one for Port hard tank and one for Center hard tank). I was thinking of moving one of the pumps to a dedicated 3/4" thru hull so each would be on their own. Before doing this, I ran a test. I started all 3 pumps and timed how long it took to fill both rear hard tanks. I was expecting the Port to fill much more slowly than the Starboard. In fact, they both finished at exactly the same time (~ 3 minutes)! I emptied both tanks (rocked the boat to get the last drops out of both tanks), and tried it again. Same result. So, unless the Port tank is significantly smaller than the Starboard or there is something wrong with the fill pump for the Starboard tank (not likely as it fills in 3 minutes; also, when I drained both tanks, they both drained in about 3 minutes), then having both pumps sharing the same thru hull had no effect. Now, if you put two 2000 GPH pumps on the same 3/4" thru hull, you would probably see some degradation in fill time.

Just thought I would add my personal experience so that others could feel comfortable putting two 800 GPH pumps on the same 3/4" thru hull.

[txwakejunkie]

Kernaltao,

Thats good to know, not really a fair test to the statement i made though.

Where in the boat are the two that are connected by a "T" mounted? in the center of the boat behind the center tank or at the rear by the trans?

the reason i ask is that without knowing how fast the third(center) tank fills then we have not really seen the down side of two pumps on one inlet. since the center tank is larger, then there is no real way to test this. If the pumps are in the rear of the boat, it would seem that it would be better to have the two rear tanks on the "T" for the test and see if they both still fill in 3 min. and have the center tank on its own inlet. How long does it take the center to fill while filling the back port also?

[Tao of Wake]

Kernaltao,

Thats good to know, not really a fair test to the statement i made though.

Where in the boat are the two that are connected by a "T" mounted? in the center of the boat behind the center tank or at the rear by the trans?

the reason i ask is that without knowing how fast the third(center) tank fills then we have not really seen the down side of two pumps on one inlet. since the center tank is larger, then there is no real way to test this. If the pumps are in the rear of the boat, it would seem that it would be better to have the two rear tanks on the "T" for the test and see if they both still fill in 3 min. and have the center tank on its own inlet. How long does it take the center to fill while filling the back port also?

They are mounted on the Port side next to the V-drive.

I have not timed how long it takes to fill the center tank, but it is awhile. I can fill the extra 750# I have in the rear locker with a 1200 GPH pump way before the center tank fills!

I'm not following why this isn't a fair test. Both the Port and Center pumps are drawing from the same 3/4" inlet. Surely, the Center pump is drawing SOMETHING, which would possibly degrade the flow to the Port pump, but it is not. Also, I know the Center tank is filling at this time because I open the floor access and see it filling the tank. I could do a test where I time the filling of the Center tank without filling the Port tank and then again while filling both tanks. If both times are the same (just the times to fill the Center tank), there is no degradation in flow to either the Port or Center tanks.

[txwakejunkie]

Kernaltao,

Thats good to know, not really a fair test to the statement i made though.

Where in the boat are the two that are connected by a "T" mounted? in the center of the boat behind the center tank or at the rear by the trans?

the reason i ask is that without knowing how fast the third(center) tank fills then we have not really seen the down side of two pumps on one inlet. since the center tank is larger, then there is no real way to test this. If the pumps are in the rear of the boat, it would seem that it would be better to have the two rear tanks on the "T" for the test and see if they both still fill in 3 min. and have the center tank on its own inlet. How long does it take the center to fill while filling the back port also?

They are mounted on the Port side next to the V-drive.

I have not timed how long it takes to fill the center tank, but it is awhile. I can fill the extra 750# I have in the rear locker with a 1200 GPH pump way before the center tank fills!

I'm not following why this isn't a fair test. Both the Port and Center pumps are drawing from the same 3/4" inlet. Surely, the Center pump is drawing SOMETHING, which would possibly degrade the flow to the Port pump, but it is not. Also, I know the Center tank is filling at this time because I open the floor access and see it filling the tank. I could do a test where I time the filling of the Center tank without filling the Port tank and then again while filling both tanks. If both times are the same (just the times to fill the Center tank), there is no degradation in flow to either the Port or Center tanks.

Because water will take the path of least resistance, so if the pump in the back is having to go all the way to the center then there is a lot less resistance to the port side tank. When you turn that pump off i bet the voulme to the center tank picks up.

try this, Turn on the port rear and the center tank, time only the center tank. Let the over flow run on the rear port till the center is full. then drain the center tank and only fill the center tank with the rear tank full or empty but not running. see if there is a change there.

I would change the hoses around so that the center is either on its own inlet or move the pump up to the middle closer to the center tank all together.

Edited September 22, 2009 by txwakejunkie

[Tao of Wake]

Because water will take the path of least resistance, so if the pump in the back is having to go all the way to the center then there is a lot less resistance to the port side tank. When you turn that pump off i bet the voulme to the center tank picks up.

try this, Turn on the port rear and the center tank, time only the center tank. Let the over flow run on the rear port till the center is full. then drain the center tank and only fill the center tank with the rear tank full or empty but not running. see if there is a change there.

I would change the hoses around so that the center is either on its own inlet or move the pump up to the middle closer to the center tank all together.

I'll give it a try for the sake of this discussion, but I probably won't make any changes to my setup as I am happy with the performance. The only things I would consider doing would be to swap the hoses to the Center and Starboard pumps so that the Port & Starboard pumps are on the "T" and the Center pump is on it's own thru hull, and I may upgrade the Center pump from 800GPH to 1200GPH (this is unlikely as I would not upgrade the hose from 3/4" to 1", so there probably wouldn't be that much gain). It seems that filling the Center tank is the slowest of all, though I only fill and empty that each time out whereas I am frequently filling and emptying the rear tanks to switch surf sides.

[Tao of Wake]

Here are the results of the test:

Filling both rear port & center tanks (keep rear port pump running until center fills): 7 minutes 15 seconds

Filling center tank only: 7 minutes 20 seconds

I timed both until the first trickle of water started coming out of the center tank vent.

Based on this and my other test, it sure looks like having both pumps on the same thru hull has no significant impact on performance. Again, I'm sure that there is some point when there would be an impact. This just shows that installing two Pirhana 800 GPH pumps on the same 3/4" thru hull does NOT have any significant impact.

Now I'm kicking myself that I installed 1" thru hulls & tubing for my Tsunami 1200 GPH pumps for the 750# sacs I plumbed into the rear compartments (two 1" thru hulls for two fill pumps and two 1" thru hulls for two drain pumps). I could have saved money and gone with 3/4" throughout (thru hulls, valves, tubing, adapters, etc.)! Oh well. Hopefully others can learn from this!